Cross Country's capacity issues: how could they be solved?

[gazzaa2]

These trains tend to be ridiculously overcrowded more regularly than other operators and one of the hardest to get a seat. Particularly through Birmingham.

Is it just a case of the rolling stock being wholly inadequate and not enough carriages?

 

[greyman42]

These trains tend to be ridiculously overcrowded more regularly than other operators and one of the hardest to get a seat. Particularly through Birmingham.

Is it just a case of the rolling stock being wholly inadequate and not enough carriages?

The rolling stock, while unpopular, is adequate. The problem is that the trains, apart from the HSTs, do not have enough carriages.

 

[Jonfun]

One issue is that through the West Midlands they become commuter trains. Removing the commuter calls at peak times and having the local operator pick them up with local stopping trains would help the problem significantly.

 

[vlad]

I'd say local stopping trains already exist!

If I've counted correctly there are 9 trains an hour from Wolverhampton to Birmingham. However, everyone still seems to crowd on to the XC services rather than getting one of the other trains.

There are only two tracks between the two cities so it's impossible for one train to overtake another. As such, getting the XC train won't get you there any quicker!

 

[404250]

It's not particularly the Midlands commuters causing this. The tains are far too small for what is the only way of getting from the SW to the North.

 

[rich-leeds]

Ditto that. There are very few 'local' calls. XC inevitably serves commuter flows ibetween many cities, and does so across Yorkshire. Leeds, Wakefield, Sheffield, York, Doncaster, Derby, Birmingham (I could go on) are all cities, that need intercity services, but also happen to have people commuting between them all. Simply, longer trains are required. Overcrowding is also severe outside typical peak periods too.

The problem is, it does not look like a solution is going to come along any time soon (unless it occurs outside of the franchising process).

 

[jagardner1984]

Looking at it in a broader sense, it seems XC services have been squeezed and squeezed to facilitate the intensification of the main lines they transect, so now the only realistic option for greater service provision is longer trains.

Of all the operators I have travelled with, XC is the only long distance operator with a huge overcrowding problem. Easy to make flippant comparisons with animal transport, but I would say I've been on 3 or 4 XC services that were dangerously overcrowded, and from which I would not have wanted to evacuate in an emergency.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Looking at it in a broader sense, it seems XC services have been squeezed and squeezed to facilitate the intensification of the main lines they transect, so now the only realistic option for greater service provision is longer trains

Which makes a lot of sense. Once they are 250m long or thereabouts, then you get to time to up frequencies.

 

[cactustwirly]

The HST services and double Voyagers aren't too bad.
The rest are awful, especially between Oxford and Birmingham!
It would make sense for XC to get the rest of the available HSTs, so all the NE-SW services were HSTs.
Then cascade the Voyagers onto the Manchester & Reading routes so they're operated by double Voyagers.

 

[The Ham]

The HST services and double Voyagers aren't too bad.
The rest are awful, especially between Oxford and Birmingham!
It would make sense for XC to get the rest of the available HSTs, so all the NE-SW services were HSTs.
Then cascade the Voyagers onto the Manchester & Reading routes so they're operated by double Voyagers.

You wouldn't need many extra HST's to make a big difference, especially if you could split units (so a single unit ran towards the edges of the network).

One HST replaces a 5 coach unit.

That 5 coach unit replaced a 4 coach unit.

That four coach unit is paired with another 4 coach unit to run as a pair to replacea 5 coach unit.

That 5 coach unit is used in the services run the second 4 coach unit.

That's 4 diagrams which see an improvement in capacity.

There's however to problems, there's very few paths which the HST's can run in (due to keeping to timetables). Secondly it would probably result in a better business case to have a new fleet of trains (a mix of 7 and 5 coaches) than have a load of doubled up units.

As not only would you need less coaches to provide the same capacity, but you could have less staff (or if you have the same numbers of staff they are benefiting the customers more, i.e. a dedicated or semi dedicated first class host).

Add in that modern trains have lower maintenance requirements built into the design and the case gets better.

The only down side would be that there would be less scope for short unit running towards the edges of the network, which could balance out some of the savings made. Likewise there's possibly scope for the 22x's to be offered at a cheaper deal of the alternative is that they have no home.

However overall I think that it's probably a good outcome.

 

[Fearless]

Of all the operators I have travelled with, XC is the only long distance operator with a huge overcrowding problem. Easy to make flippant comparisons with animal transport, but I would say I've been on 3 or 4 XC services that were dangerously overcrowded, and from which I would not have wanted to evacuate in an emergency.

Exactly. I posted on another forum that I witnessed a young child having a panic attack when being told to squeeze into a bursting-at-the-seams Voyager at Temple Meads heading for Dundee just before Christmas, 4 carriages. That post was met with a very unsympathetic response, to the effect that the child needed psychiatric help rather than XC needed to offer more accommodation, especially on journeys of several hours.

 

[D9009Spotter]

When Virgin held this franchise, the 22X classes were brought in based on a 'less carriages, more often' basis. They replaced the outgoing 7 coach trains with 4 and 5 car trainsets.

However, because the new timetable went downhill from the beginning, it basically went back to the old timetable, which was fine when the voyagers were all in a shared pool, but when the Virgin rail empire was split in 2, so was the 221 fleet. Great for VT. More 10 coach trains, more Voyagers for North Wales, more Pendolinos for other trains.

But XCs extra sets that they used to double up with in the previous franchise, were gone. That's where most of the problem lies.

I'm all for a new Bi-Modal fleet, which seems to be where all the routes are leading. But for now and the near future we're stuck with the Voyagers. Mechanically impressive, passenger experience wise, not so much!

 

[Parallel]

I'm all for a new Bi-Modal fleet, which seems to be where all the routes are leading. But for now and the near future we're stuck with the Voyagers. Mechanically impressive, passenger experience wise, not so much!

Indeed, and let’s be thankful that XC don’t use 180s because there’d likely be no train at all as it’d have broken down! Impressive passenger experience - Mechanically less so!

 

[Metal_gee_man]

It'd be useful to get their hands on more Turbostars from either Scotrail/WMT/Greatern Anglia/Northern this would help provide extra carriages.
Theoretically how many carriages long can you make a Turbostar? It seems they are running as 2 car sets recently!

 

[D9009Spotter]

The Turbostar routes aren't terribly overcrowded to my knowledge. As previously mentioned, it seems to be the Reading - Birmingham route and BHM - York / North that seems to be problematic. I don't see more HSTs happening.

Only hope would be either new stock for the franchise or the Meridians get cascaded by new stock for the EM franchise.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

The Turbostar routes aren't terribly overcrowded to my knowledge. As previously mentioned, it seems to be the Reading - Birmingham route and BHM - York / North that seems to be problematic. I don't see more HSTs happening. Only hope would be either new stock for the franchise or the Meridians get cascaded by new stock for the EM franchise.

There's always complaints of crazy overcrowding in the east of the country on Stansted Airport routes, and they generally use Turbostars

 

[D9009Spotter]

Lol I don't normally see those overcrowded. Ah well. I'd be open to seeing them take on the 175s from the TfW franchise. More of them so they can accommodate the extra people

 

[Qwerty133]

More 170s has to be a preferred solution to 175s as a mix of incompatible DMUs from different manufacturers would double the amount of training staff need and add extra work for controllers.
The other problem is that many of the stations west of Leicester can only fit 4 coaches on the platform so ideally they'd reconfigure them into 2 and 4 coach units (as Southern have so it should be technically possible).

 

[D9009Spotter]

Maybe there would be surplus MS(L) vehicles from cascaded examples?

 

[Parallel]

The Turbostar routes aren't terribly overcrowded to my knowledge. As previously mentioned, it seems to be the Reading - Birmingham route and BHM - York / North that seems to be problematic. I don't see more HSTs happening. Only hope would be either new stock for the franchise or the Meridians get cascaded by new stock for the EM franchise.

Bristol - Birmingham is also overcrowded if 4 cars are used. Also trains from Bristol to Exeter and Plymouth on evenings and weekends.

 

[chubs]

Lol I don't normally see those overcrowded. Ah well. I'd be open to seeing them take on the 175s from the TfW franchise. More of them so they can accommodate the extra people

They do. They are awful around Stansted, especially if it's a 2 car 170.

 

[sprinterguy]

It'd be useful to get their hands on more Turbostars from either Scotrail/WMT/Greatern Anglia/Northern this would help provide extra carriages.
Theoretically how many carriages long can you make a Turbostar? It seems they are running as 2 car sets recently!

The only 170s up for grabs are the ones currently with WMT. The Greater Anglia units are going to Transport for Wales, and Scotrail's available units have only recently transferred to Northern, who will be keeping them for the duration of the franchise. Note also that Northern are in the market for an additional 18 x 2-car 170 equivalents by the end of 2022.

Maybe there would be surplus MS(L) vehicles from cascaded examples?

There are only six 3-car units going spare any time soon: With such small numbers there seems little point chopping them around - Just those six units would allow Crosscountry to strengthen twelve 2-car diagrams to 3-car and six 3-car diagrams to 4-car, which covers nearly three quarters of the diagrams.

 

[D9009Spotter]

Right. So. We're all in agreement. South Wales to Stansted needs to be 4 - Car minimum. If we're working off the same ratio, roughly, that means anything else needs to be between 7 and 9 coaches long. I say a mixed fleet of 7 and 5 car trainsets. Anyone else agree or disagree?

 

[sprinterguy]

Right. So. We're all in agreement. South Wales to Stansted needs to be 4 - Car minimum. If we're working off the same ratio, roughly, that means anything else needs to be between 7 and 9 coaches long. I say a mixed fleet of 7 and 5 car trainsets. Anyone else agree or disagree?

I've held for a number of years that a mix of 5 and 7-car units would be ideal to satisfy demand on Crosscountry inter-city services. Though with seemingly ever increasing demand for travel with Crosscountry, I'd be happiest if those were longer 24 or 26 metre carriages.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

The only 170s up for grabs are the ones currently with WMT. The Greater Anglia units are going to Transport for Wales, and Scotrail's available units have only recently transferred to Northern, who will be keeping them for the duration of the franchise.

That being said will WMT be looking to keep their 172s, they are technically turbo stars if you lose the driving cars will the in between carriages be cannibalised to add carriages to 2 car sets?
The main reason I suggest this is they are the ******* love child Bombardier that make no sense as no one else uses them with gangways,
I know that'll mean waiting for 2020 when CAF deliver the diesel order to WMT but the transfer of the LO GOBLIN line trains in the short term to WMT will also be up for grabs then as well

 

[sprinterguy]

That being said will WMT be looking to keep their 172s, they are technically turbo stars if you loose the driving cars will the in between carriages be cannibalised to add carriages to 2 car sets?

Yes, WMT are retaining the 172s for the duration of the franchise.

 

[Wychwood93]

I've held for a number of years that a mix of 5 and 7-car units would be ideal to satisfy demand on Crosscountry inter-city services. Though with seemingly ever increasing demand for travel with Crosscountry, I'd be happiest if those were longer 24 or 26 metre carriages.

We are heading down the road of something oddly similar to the Hitachi 8xx series of 5 and 9-car bi-modes - given that all the main XC routes are under the wires at some stage. I could suggest tri-mode stock for Manchester-Bournemouth - but will steer clear of that for the moment! The very idea of suitably modified Class 373 power cars at either end of 7 Mk 5 trailer cars would be really daft.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

So when is XC franchise up for re-negotiation?
Because I can't believe that without a new franchise agreement Arriva have absolutely no interest or financial incentive to invest in new rolling stock, look what they did to their Arriva Trains Wales franchise we know they purposely underinvested, but also failed to maintain and update (for legal reasons) their fleets.
And if anyone thinks that they are doing a good job of running Northern or that they are spending loads of money on rolling stock so they must be a good franchisee/company needs their head testing!

 

[Qwerty133]

The only 170s up for grabs are the ones currently with WMT. The Greater Anglia units are going to Transport for Wales, and Scotrail's available units have only recently transferred to Northern, who will be keeping them for the duration of the franchise. Note also that Northern are in the market for an additional 18 x 2-car 170 equivalents by the end of 2022.

There are only six 3-car units going spare any time soon: With such small numbers there seems little point chopping them around - Just those six units would allow Crosscountry to strengthen twelve 2-car diagrams to 3-car and six 3-car diagrams to 4-car, which covers nearly three quarters of the diagrams.

XC currently have 14 3 coach units and 13 2 coach units so if they can get the 23 WM units (17 2 coach and 6 3coach) they could split the fleet into 10 4 coach units and 40 2 coach units which would give them enough units to run all diagrams as 4 coaches and also give the stock for a couple of overdue service improvements that have been cancelled due to a lack of stock, or alternatively used on a handful of Bristol-Manchester services to free up Voyagers.

 

[TheBigD]

XC currently have 14 3 coach units and 13 2 coach units so if they can get the 23 WM units (17 2 coach and 6 3coach) they could split the fleet into 10 4 coach units and 40 2 coach units which would give them enough units to run all diagrams as 4 coaches and also give the stock for a couple of overdue service improvements that have been cancelled due to a lack of stock, or alternatively used on a handful of Bristol-Manchester services to free up Voyagers.

They have 16 x 3 car. 14 are required for daily service. Of the 13 x 2 car, 11 are required for daily service though one set is the standby/hot spare at Birmingham until the 1739 Derby