CrossCountry: routes eroded/lost since privatisation

[tbtc]

The 222s were a better design then the 220s as the interiors were less cramped due to having more components fitted underneath the train.

Imagine if Virgin was successful with getting longer trains being 222s there would have been less negative feedback plus they would have been worthy successors to the XC fleet however they should never had got rid of the HSTs in the first place.

Does lack of tilting mean the 222s can be wider too? (due to the envelope size)

I agree that longer trains are the main problem - if they'd had the half hourly "core" frequency with seven coach trains then we'd probably look a XC as one of the great sucesses of privatisation - look at how much busier they are these days. Shame is, if they'd had those longer trains (at the half hourly frequency), they'd fill them on a lot of journeys

 

[thefab444]

Interesting to hear of this VT10 (some sources say VT0?) Swindon to Birmingham service; what was the frequency and calling pattern like? I believe Virgin planned to use the Challenger HST sets on a Paddington to Birmingham via Swindon service, although this of course never came to fruition.

 

[Waverley125]

i think there needs to be a concerted plan to add routes to the existing XC network & extend the ones that are there.

For instance, Bham-Stansted is fine, but a second hourly service should be introduced, IMO Ipswich-Shrewsbury. Nottingham-Cardiff should be extended to become Lincoln-Swansea. Brighton-Manchester via Olympia, Reading, Didcot, Oxford, Birmmingham & Crewe should be reintroduced.

Possibly also Portsmouth & Southsea-Hull? (Portsmouth-Guildford-Reading-Oxford-Birmingham-Burton-Derby-Sheffield-Doncaster-Hull)

Norwich-Liverpool should be brought into XC from EMT, and Kent should also be connected, with a Dover-Blackpool service. (Dover-Wandsworth Road-Willesden Junction-Bletchley-Bedford-Sheffield-Manchester Piccadilly-Bolton-Preston-Blackpool)

 

[WillPS]

Operationally, it doesn't make sense for Arriva to take over Norwich-Liverpool because it doesn't pass through or even near Birmingham, so there'd have to be some pretty complex diagrams to make the route work. Even so it wouldn't really solve the problem unless they got more of the Turbostars that London Midland (wrongly, IMO) ended up with. Six of one, half a dozen of another basically.

I agree that it doesn't fit very nicely inside EMT's franchise though, whereas Sheffield - Lincoln and arguably Nottingham - Leeds do fit.

TransPennine Express would work better for Norwich - Liverpool I reckon. Turbostars is definitely the way forward for the route.

 

[MCR247]

Waverly125: You thing a porstmouth to Hull serbvice is needed? And lincoln to swansea, you reckon there is a market? Why do you need a Dover - blackppol train.

It seems again that you are just picking place names oout of a hat

 

[General Zod]

Many years back, it was 1996, I remember catching the Brighton - Edinburgh ( via Reading) XC service from Kensington Olympia. The journey to Edinburgh must have taken close to 8.5 hours and was hauled by a Class 47 for a lot of the distance. I think that we may have gone through Crewe ( or maybe Stoke/Macclesfield), but definitely Manchester Pic, Bolton, Preston, The Lakes, Glasgow Central and then Edinburgh. One of my most enjoyable train journeys !

 

[Spaceflower]

On the plus side Chester -le-Street is a new addition since the introduction of Voyagers
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Operationally, it doesn't make sense for Arriva to take over Norwich-Liverpool because it doesn't pass through or even near Birmingham, so there'd have to be some pretty complex diagrams to make the route work. Even so it wouldn't really solve the problem unless they got more of the Turbostars that London Midland (wrongly, IMO) ended up with. Six of one, half a dozen of another basically.

I agree that it doesn't fit very nicely inside EMT's franchise though, whereas Sheffield - Lincoln and arguably Nottingham - Leeds do fit.

TransPennine Express would work better for Norwich - Liverpool I reckon. Turbostars is definitely the way forward for the route.

Its beggars belief that the country's railways have been fragmented like this it really is

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I don't know about other destinations but the services to Brighton had to be hauled from the station to Lovers Walk Depot for the 47 to run round, before being hauled back to Brighton Station. The loco that used to haul the train to and from the depot was an 09. Anyone know what happened to the shunter? Was it sent to Selhurst? I remember seeing one there a few years ago.

 

[stut]

Waverly125: You thing a porstmouth to Hull serbvice is needed? And lincoln to swansea, you reckon there is a market? Why do you need a Dover - blackppol train.

It seems again that you are just picking place names oout of a hat

To be fair, you don't have to have the end-to-end journeys to mean a route is useful: if you have enough overlapping journeys along the route, it becomes worthwhile.

 

[tbtc]

Operationally, it doesn't make sense for Arriva to take over Norwich-Liverpool because it doesn't pass through or even near Birmingham, so there'd have to be some pretty complex diagrams to make the route work. Even so it wouldn't really solve the problem unless they got more of the Turbostars that London Midland (wrongly, IMO) ended up with. Six of one, half a dozen of another basically.

I agree that it doesn't fit very nicely inside EMT's franchise though, whereas Sheffield - Lincoln and arguably Nottingham - Leeds do fit.

TransPennine Express would work better for Norwich - Liverpool I reckon. Turbostars is definitely the way forward for the route.

Liverpool to Norwich is an awkward route that doesn't fit easily into any franchise.

The three options are:

1. To split it into two or more shorter services

2. To give it to more than one TOC (e.g. Northen and NXEA)

3. For one franchise to run it

Discounting the first two, East Midlands are the best TOC to run it, given that they cover the core part - Sheffield, Nottingham, Grantham and Peterborough. Arriva Cross Country admittedly serve Manchester, Sheffield, Nottingham and Peterborough, but with totally different services (for route learning etc)

The one caveat is that I think it'd made sense to give them the Manchester Airport - Cleethorpes TPE service too; EMT already run to Manchester, Sheffield, Doncaster and Grimsby, whereas TPE only run the Manchester Airport - Manchester.

 

[Ascot]

VT0 services - Brum to Swindon on 158s

 

[AlexS]

For a short while Virgin Trains took over operation of the Swindon - Cheltenham local service from Wales and West.

They were awful and it didn't last very long - mixing an entirely express operation with a local one that had a tiny fleet (4? units) didn't work.

 

[Waverley125]

indeed MCR, that's exactly what I'm doing. I'm looking at regions without XC services and looking to see how they can be brought onto the map. Extending Nottingham-Cardiff down to Swansea makes good sense as it links in South Wales. The Lincoln greater area has a population of a quarter of a million people, and has no XC links, making it one of the worst served cities in Britain. Kent used to, but no longer does, have XC services (though i believe these went to Ramsgate, not Dover), blackpool is the same. Portsmouth & the south coast have diabolical services, and Hull is a large conurbation in an otherwise isolated area, another city that could do with better services.

 

[tbtc]

Extending Nottingham-Cardiff down to Swansea makes good sense as it links in South Wales

Swansea has an hourly train to London and an hourly train to Manchester as well as the local services to Cardiff) - how many more trains do you cram in? Even if you give it an hourly train to Birmingham (by extending the Nottingham - Cardiff service) then on the next thread someone will suggest it's an outrage that it doesn't have an hourly service to Bristol/ Aberystwyth/ Mallaig etc. You can't solve every link - the best thing is to have regular clockface routes that connect with each other.

Not all of the places you list had what could be called a "cross country" service in the last decade anyway.

As I said before in this thread, there's nothing stopping local TOCs from replacing any "lost" Cross Country links. For example, FGW could find a couple of off-peak paths on the Brighton line to run some Brighton - Gatwick - Reading - Oxford services. It doesn't need to be run by XC.

 

[WillPS]

Liverpool to Norwich is an awkward route that doesn't fit easily into any franchise.

The three options are:

1. To split it into two or more shorter services

2. To give it to more than one TOC (e.g. Northen and NXEA)

3. For one franchise to run it

Discounting the first two, East Midlands are the best TOC to run it, given that they cover the core part - Sheffield, Nottingham, Grantham and Peterborough. ATW admittedly serve Manchester, Sheffield, Nottingham and Peterborough, but with totally different services (for route learning etc)

The one caveat is that I think it'd made sense to give them the Manchester Airport - Cleethorpes TPE service too; EMT already run to Manchester, Sheffield, Doncaster and Grimsby, whereas TPE only run the Manchester Airport - Manchester.

I accept you point, but I think having one effectively Cross Country route with a TOC which operates several definitely local services and several capital-bound InterCity services is inevitably going to lead to that one route awkward to operate, especially seeing as the brand East Midlands Trains means nothing to a, say, Liverpool - Sheffield commuter.

Norwich - Liverpool certainly has more in common with any of the TransPennine Express routes than it does with any other East Midlands Trains service.

Frankly - it sat pretty nicely in Central Trains' franchise, and I still hold that splitting the franchise and dumping it with InterCity operators was a mistake.

 

[tbtc]

I accept you point, but I think having one effectively Cross Country route with a TOC which operates several definitely local services and several capital-bound InterCity services is inevitably going to lead to that one route awkward to operate, especially seeing as the brand East Midlands Trains means nothing to a, say, Liverpool - Sheffield commuter.

True, hence my idea of at least pairing it up with the "southern transpennine" route. Of course, whether Arriva Trains Wales means much to someone going from Telford to Birmingham, or from Warrington to Manchester could lead to a whole other thread...

Southern Transpennine is a similarly "awkward" route to pigeonhole or find a natural home for, but at least the two have something in common!

Norwich - Liverpool certainly has more in common with any of the TransPennine Express routes than it does with any other East Midlands Trains service.

Frankly - it sat pretty nicely in Central Trains' franchise, and I still hold that splitting the franchise and dumping it with InterCity operators was a mistake.

It fitted well with Central, agreed. In fact, Central's habit of linking up two random places and running a direct service (via Birmingham) would probably go down quite well with some on this forum

 

[Aictos]

Just one point, I don't think ATW has ever served Nottingham - they certainly have never served Peterborough, I should know as I've lived there for past 25 years!

 

[tbtc]

Just one point, I don't think ATW has ever served Nottingham - they certainly have never served Peterborough, I should know as I've lived there for past 25 years!

Totally right - I've got my two Arriva franchises mixed up when typing

(hangs head!)

 

[Failed Unit]

Norwich - Liverpool certainly has more in common with any of the TransPennine Express routes than it does with any other East Midlands Trains service.

Frankly - it sat pretty nicely in Central Trains' franchise, and I still hold that splitting the franchise and dumping it with InterCity operators was a mistake.

Yep the only thing CT really needed was to get rid of national express, splitting it up made it a lot worse for a lot of people that lost through services. Lincoln - Birmingham - Shrewsbury and Skegness - Nottingham - Crewe may not have been used end to end much, but people travelling say Stoke-On-Trent - Nottingham, Nuneaton - Wolverhampton and Birmingham - Lincoln are a lot worse off since the split. Don't really see many areas of any of the 3 former franchises been better off really.

The Lincoln greater area has a population of a quarter of a million people, and has no XC links, making it one of the worst served cities in Britain.

Been from the area the one change I would make is alter the Nottingham - Lincoln flow. Extend trains from Birmingham or Cardiff - Lincoln stopping only at Newark Castle. The current route to Liecester serves no purpose, I remember when it was split the press said "Syston gets an hourly service to Lincoln" - But negleted to say Nuneaton loses all direct trains to Nottingham and Loughborough and Lincoln lose all direct trains to Birmingham used by a lot more people! The local service could then be a 153 every 2 hours to supplement then express service, they could even run it to Liecester!

The one caveat is that I think it'd made sense to give them the Manchester Airport - Cleethorpes TPE service too; EMT already run to Manchester, Sheffield, Doncaster and Grimsby, whereas TPE only run the Manchester Airport - Manchester.

I have been saying that for years, would even justify a bigger build of 3 car trains to cover it. While they were at it they could give EMT Cleethorpes - Barton. I know off topic but most of Lincolnshires routes seem to be with the wrong operator. For me I would give Doncaster - Lincoln to Northern, Lincoln - Nottingham to XC (as above). Peterborough - Lincoln and Newark - Grimsby should ideally be moved to the East Coast route as their main reason to exist is to connect to the mainline, but I know in reality this will never happen for many very good reasons!

 

[tbtc]

The current route to Liecester serves no purpose, I remember when it was split the press said "Syston gets an hourly service to Lincoln" - But negleted to say Nuneaton loses all direct trains to Nottingham and Loughborough and Lincoln lose all direct trains to Birmingham used by a lot more people!

The Lincoln - Leicester service is (like the Nottingham to Matlock service) really there to satisfy the constraints of the train operator, rather than to satisfy public demand.

First of all, there's no real need to link the two, other than it frees up platform space at Nottingham, rather than two services waiting time each hour then reversing.

Secondly, it's easier to meet the tight "window" over the ECML flat crossing by running a short service like Lincoln to Leicester than a longer distance one (like Cardiff/ Birmingham to Lincoln, or Leicester to Grimsby) - since a longer one runs the risk of being delayed and then messing up the NXEC paths.

 

[Max]

Waverly125: You thing a porstmouth to Hull serbvice is needed?

Portsmouth is a bit farfetched, but I genuinely feel that there is a market for Hull-Birmingham. This would link the city into the Cross Country network, a link which is greatly needed, especially if the proposed withdrawl of XC services from Doncaster is approved.

 

[tbtc]

Portsmouth is a bit farfetched, but I genuinely feel that there is a market for Hull-Birmingham. This would link the city into the Cross Country network, a link which is greatly needed, especially if the proposed withdrawl of XC services from Doncaster is approved.

I can see the justification for upgrading the Hull - Sheffield service to TransPennine standard.

When the Doncaster XC service is diverted to Leeds, I like the idea of a Hull - Doncaster - Sheffield - Derby - Birmingham XC service to compensate, but I'm not sure there's a fifth passenger path between Sheffield and Derby (given that EMT will be half hourly in December).

It's a shame the geography at Newark doesn't allow Hull - Doncaster - Retford - Newark Castle - Nottingham - Derby - Birmingham (tying in with the existing XC services)

 

[A0]

Waverly125: You thing a porstmouth to Hull serbvice is needed? And lincoln to swansea, you reckon there is a market? Why do you need a Dover - blackppol train.

It seems again that you are just picking place names oout of a hat

Not half as daft as his other suggestion: "Kent should also be connected, with a Dover-Blackpool service. (Dover-Wandsworth Road-Willesden Junction-Bletchley-Bedford-Sheffield-Manchester Piccadilly-Bolton-Preston-Blackpool)"

I can't imagine too many takers for a Dover - Blackpool run.... add to that congestion getting into London, lack of paths up the WCML to Bletchley, low line speed Bletchley - Bedford (and why divert it this way in any case?) lack of paths Bedford - Leicester - I reckon it would take about 18 hours to do the journey......

 

[djw1981]

The Dover / Kent trains provided a through link to the midlands with no london change. This allowed people to then change onto trains to the NE, NW etc. Remember that before the tunnel opened, the channel ports were how one got to France!

 

[dojo]

I've been silently protesting for Liverpool's reintroduction to the XC timetable for a couple of years now. I mean seriously, Liverpool isn't some small seaside town. LM should come to some agreement with XC so that a new pattern appears:

BHM-LIV (LM) 1tph
BHM-MAN (LM) 1tph
BMH-BHM-LIV (XC) 1tp2h
BMH-BHM-MAN (XC) 1tp2h
BRI-BHM-LIV (XC) tp2h
BRI-BHM-MAN (XC) 1tp2h

So neither Liverpool nor Manchester lose their frequency between Birmingham, and Liverpudlians can finally travel direct to the South West and South Coast.

(I wish.)

 

[Failed Unit]

I wonder now that most services are operated by Voyagers is splitting trains is the way forward to get some places back onto the network.

Liverpool is probably more simple, maybe splitting / joining at Crewe (do both services need to go via Stoke?) Take a portion of the Newcastle bound service and send it to Hull. Splitting at Doncaster or Sheffield (if routed via Leeds). I know we have the problem that the we don't have enough voyagers at the moment but that won't be the case forever. The splitting / joining doesn't cause problems at places like Faversham!

 

[jamesontheroad]

Places like Brighton, Blackpool, Harwich and Dover have all dropped off the XC (or Regional Railways) network for cultural and sociological reasons... as a nation we no longer take the majority of our holidays at UK seaside resorts and we primarily don't travel to the continent by ferry. So whereas the old XC network included these seaside destinations and ports, I'd be more interested in re-connecting disconnected towns and cities before pushing individual routes as close to the coast as possible.

 

[HSTfan!!!]

I've not read this thread in its entirety however I have heard rumours from an XC colleague that XC are really looking into services on the Swansea route again amongst other routes.

 

[dojo]

I've not read this thread in its entirety however I have heard rumours from an XC colleague that XC are really looking into services on the Swansea route again amongst other routes.

Are you in any position of influence with this XC colleague? Can you suggest a link back to Liverpool with him/her? How many smiley faces will it cost me?

 

[paul1609]

Places like Brighton, Blackpool, Harwich and Dover have all dropped off the XC (or Regional Railways) network for cultural and sociological reasons... as a nation we no longer take the majority of our holidays at UK seaside resorts and we primarily don't travel to the continent by ferry. So whereas the old XC network included these seaside destinations and ports, I'd be more interested in re-connecting disconnected towns and cities before pushing individual routes as close to the coast as possible.

Brighton and its conurbation is a major population centre in its own right the reason that the XC was withdrawn is that nobody in their right mind wants to go up north.