CrossCountry Trains' rolling stock (old vs new)

[Kier]

I just wondered what was people's thoughts on the old service on old stock compared to the new service on the voyagers?

I think it is very mixed. I used the old cross country route extensively in my childhood, traveling from the East Midlands to Newcastle and going on holiday to the South Coast and Devon. The old service was too prone to delays but the trains were better and there was rarely any problem in getting a seat. I never took too much notice of the timetabling but I understand that it was a very irregular affair with no set times for trains leaving past the hour.

The new timetable is great, the trains are just too small and completely unsuitable at busy times (in the day time there is not too much trouble). If they just added another two coaches onto the stock then it would be fine.

 

[NSE]

I think that's the general consensus. I have been on both quiet and busy Voyagers. I liked the quiet ones, they are fine for travelling then. There is space for luggage etc, the minute it gets busy, you often miss out on your reserved seat and you have bags and such in your face. Completely changes the whole experience. Its a shame places like Portsmouth/Liverpool/Brighton have been cut from the network, but that's life I guess!

 

[Kier]

Liverpool does not need a service with the half hourly service to Birmingham. Brighton was only a one a day service and you would be better off changing in London anyway.

I did like the old network though, places like Cardiff, Liverpool, Brighton, Ramsgate, London Paddington, Poole and Weymouth getting limited services. Not to mention the Liverpool to Scotland services.

I would love an old timetable pre operation princess, does anyone know if there is one online?

 

[Masbroughlad]

There was a Leeds/Hull to Paddington service a few years ago! Joined at Sheffield.

There were many unusual services compared to today.

 

[Kier]

I must struggle to see the demand for XC Paddington service, all the places served must have either had quicker services to other London stations or the likes of Reading must have already had ample services.

I really do not see why the HSTs had to replaced en mass. The class 47s needed to go sadly, but the HSTs are still used extensively to this day b East Midlands Trains and East Coast. FGW also use them for all their InterCity services.

 

[yorkie]

Getting rid of the HSTs was a big mistake, though apparently Virgin wanted to retain them but the DfT specification said they should go.. or something like that!

It is good that Arriva brought them back but it's not enough. This topic has been discussed several times before I recall!

Too often the trains are overwhelmed by the huge number of passengers that want to use them. This problem does not seem to occur late in the evening (unlike London services which can still be very busy late evening) so I try to get later trains back for this reason.

I know people who stopped using XC for long distance services due to the introduction of Voyagers!

There was a Leeds/Hull to Paddington service a few years ago! Joined at Sheffield..

Must have been more than 'a few' years ago, as I have no memory of this!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I did like the old network though, places like Cardiff, Liverpool, Brighton, Ramsgate, London Paddington, Poole and Weymouth getting limited services. Not to mention the Liverpool to Scotland services.
I would love an old timetable pre operation princess, does anyone know if there is one online?

Try this one: http://www.1s76.com/1S76 1998.htm

 

[jopsuk]

whilst the frequency isn't quite what was attempted for the "Operation Princess" project, the trains are generally more frequent- and carrying far more passengers. I'd reckon that if you tried carrying the same number of passengers on the old services, you'd have difficulty getting a seat...

 

[Martin_1981]

I just wondered what was people's thoughts on the old service on old stock compared to the new service on the voyagers?

I think it is very mixed. I used the old cross country route extensively in my childhood, traveling from the East Midlands to Newcastle and going on holiday to the South Coast and Devon. The old service was too prone to delays but the trains were better and there was rarely any problem in getting a seat. I never took too much notice of the timetabling but I understand that it was a very irregular affair with no set times for trains leaving past the hour.

The new timetable is great, the trains are just too small and completely unsuitable at busy times (in the day time there is not too much trouble). If they just added another two coaches onto the stock then it would be fine.

Yes, the old timetable up to September 2002 was a fairly random one rather than the clockface one we now have. Generally there were hourly services between Birmingham New Street and the following points:-

Manchester Piccadilly-with extensions to/from Preston, Glasgow, Edinburgh
Leeds/York- with extensions to/from Newcastle and Edinburgh
Bristol TM- with extensions to/from Exeter, Paignton, Plymouth, Penzance
Reading- with extensions to/from Bournemouth, Poole, Brighton, Portsmouth and Paddington

There were 3 trains in each direction per day between Birmingham and Edinburgh via the ECML, three trains between Birmingham and Liverpool and two between Manchester and Brighton. Other trains included:-

Newcastle-Swansea (HST)
Leeds-Paignton (HST)
Blackpool-Portsmouth (HST or top n tail 47's and MK2's)
Edinburgh-Brighton (loco hauled)
Glasgow-Poole (loco hauled)
Aberdeen-Plymouth via Manchester and WCML (HST)
Glasgow-Penzance via Manchester and WCML (loco hauled)
Paddington-Glasgow (loco hauled)

In my view, a much more exciting timetable than today's, and with a good mix of HST and loco hauled stock, but I guess times move on. In terms of comfort, give me the MK 2's any day, closely followed by the HST's with the original IC70 seating, over the claustrophobic Voyagers, although I do really like the XC HST's as they have a nice airy feel, in addition to being the only stock on XC with some character, even with the throbbing MTU's as opposed to the screaming Valenta engines.

 

[Goatboy]

I travel on Crosscountry often. When a Voyager is quiet, it's an acceptable train. It's reasonably comfortable. It still feels more like a regional train than a long distance train, but if its not wedged, it's fine. They appear to have fixed the mobile phone signal blackout thing too.

Sadly though once they become busy they are horrible things - and the frequent appearance of 4 car units on very long distance services at peak times means they are very busy far more often than they are very empty. They just don't feel like suitable units for the services they are deployed on.

It's always nice to see a HST turn up instead.

 

[Kier]

Yes, the old timetable up to September 2002 was a fairly random one rather than the clockface one we now have. Generally there were hourly services between Birmingham New Street and the following points:-

Manchester Piccadilly-with extensions to/from Preston, Glasgow, Edinburgh
Leeds/York- with extensions to/from Newcastle and Edinburgh
Bristol TM- with extensions to/from Exeter, Paignton, Plymouth, Penzance
Reading- with extensions to/from Bournemouth, Poole, Brighton, Portsmouth and Paddington

There were 3 trains in each direction per day between Birmingham and Edinburgh via the ECML, three trains between Birmingham and Liverpool and two between Manchester and Brighton. Other trains included:-

Newcastle-Swansea (HST)
Leeds-Paignton (HST)
Blackpool-Portsmouth (HST or top n tail 47's and MK2's)
Edinburgh-Brighton (loco hauled)
Glasgow-Poole (loco hauled)
Aberdeen-Plymouth via Manchester and WCML (HST)
Glasgow-Penzance via Manchester and WCML (loco hauled)
Paddington-Glasgow (loco hauled)

In my view, a much more exciting timetable than today's, and with a good mix of HST and loco hauled stock, but I guess times move on. In terms of comfort, give me the MK 2's any day, closely followed by the HST's with the original IC70 seating, over the claustrophobic Voyagers, although I do really like the XC HST's as they have a nice airy feel, in addition to being the only stock on XC with some character, even with the throbbing MTU's as opposed to the screaming Valenta engines.

That was a great read, thank you for posting

I am surprised that Brighton survived the post operation princess axe.

There were also services from Manchester Airport and Liverpool to Glasgow and Edinburgh. The Manchester ones still exist though. How frequent were these roughly?

 

[Derbyshire Gra]

whilst the frequency isn't quite what was attempted for the "Operation Princess" project, the trains are generally more frequent- and carrying far more passengers. I'd reckon that if you tried carrying the same number of passengers on the old services, you'd have difficulty getting a seat...

So let's just put that to the test.
1 x 7-car cross country HST (as operational prior to the arrival of the Voyagers) = 384 standard class seats and 48 first class.
1 x 220 as built = 162 standard and 26 first class
1 x 221 as built (5-car) = 224 standard and 26 first class seats.

Therefore, if each hour you have one 220 and one 221, instead of a single HST, then you have 2 extra standard seats and 4 extra first class seats. Of course, more often than not it will be 2 x 220s per hour, so that is 60 LESS standard class seats, and 4 more first class. So, I reckon the HST would have coped just fine - especially with the "cram them in" seats installed into the five remaining HST sets.

 

[Manchester77]

- this is probably a stupid question but, where I'd XC's old HSTs go. I feel I was GW but I'm not sure to be honest.
- the Blackpool service shouldn't have been cut IMO, it gave the town an intercity link which helps the local economy but with the current lack of capacity it'd be impractical to bring it back
M77

 

[Derbyshire Gra]

- this is probably a stupid question but, where I'd XC's old HSTs go. I feel I was GW but I'm not sure to be honest.
- the Blackpool service shouldn't have been cut IMO, it gave the town an intercity link which helps the local economy but with the current lack of capacity it'd be impractical to bring it back
M77

After a period when some operated the "Rio" service from London to Manchester via Leicester, the sets and power cars were distributed between Great Western, East Coast and Grand Central, together with the five current XC sets - however, a good number of those trailer vehicles were rebuilt from loco-hauled coaches so there are actually more HST vehicles in service now than at any time in the fleet's history.

 

[ryan125hst]

I'm too young to remember the old Cross Country trains (I wouldn't have been much older than eight or nine when they were replaced and, as they don't come through Retford, I don't think i really saw them). While I like our current railway network, I do think it's a shame that most of the loco hauled stock has gone. Looking at videos of them on You Tube makes me realise that the railways used to be even more interesting with loco changes, trains splitting ect. The Mark 2's and 3's were the face of BR in my opinion, and they have almost all been replaced with multiple units with a trolley service!

The mark 2 and 3 coaches are comfortable and are perfect for long distance rail travel. However, they were at least 20 years old, with the class 47's and 87's approaching 40 years old when they were withdrawn. This must have made reliability and maintainance a major problem, so new trains had to be introduced.

The Voyagers that replaced them are modern and their 125 mph to speed exceeds the 100 mph top speed of the mark 2 loco hauled sets. The fact that they have engines under each coach means that their acceleration is quicker than both the class 47's and the HST's.

However, there are 3 big problems that could have been avoided:

1) They are too short. If they had been 6-8 coaches long instead of 4 or 5, there wouldn't be a problem.

2) They have too many accessible toilets that take up too much space: surely one would have been enough?

3) They lack catering facilities. From what I've seen on here, they just have a microwave, whereas their successor, the class 222's, have a full kitchen. Add this to the fact that Arriva have removed the shop and you are left with little catering provisions on up to 13 hour journeys.

Luggage space could also be a bit more generous.

If the voyagers were 7 car trains, with only 1 or 2 accessible toilets and a large kitchen serving a restaurant area for all passengers as well as a buffet counter, I think they would be liked a lot more.

The only other problem is that they have underfloor engines, do they will never be as quiet as the HST's. Why didn't they refurbish the HST's and design a new locomotive hauled train to replace the Mark 2's?

 

[ainsworth74]

The only other problem is that they have underfloor engines, do they will never be as quiet as the HST's. Why didn't they refurbish the HST's and design a new locomotive hauled train to replace the Mark 2's?

At one stage the order was going to include 67s+LHCS in 4/5 car formations but that got dropped at a fairly early stage in favour of a uniform fleet of Voyagers. So it was at least looked at as an option.

 

[sprinterguy]

The mark 2 and 3 coaches are comfortable and are perfect for long distance rail travel. However, they were at least 20 years old, with the class 47's and 87's approaching 40 years old when they were withdrawn. This must have made reliability and maintainance a major problem, so new trains had to be introduced.

The class 87s were thirty years old when they were withdrawn, and they were West Coast stock - Crosscountry used class 86s, which were forty years old.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

At one stage the order was going to include 67s+LHCS in 4/5 car formations but that got dropped at a fairly early stage in favour of a uniform fleet of Voyagers. So it was at least looked at as an option.

Indeed, and as Yorkie has alluded to in an earlier post, a later intention from Virgin, once the all-Voyager order had been chosen, was to retain and refurbish fourteen (IIRC, although that might have been fourteen power cars rather than sets) HSTs as class 255 "Challengers" in 2+5 formation for operation on services out of Manchester, to the South Coast.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The Voyagers that replaced them are modern and their 125 mph to speed exceeds the 100 mph top speed of the mark 2 loco hauled sets. The fact that they have engines under each coach means that their acceleration is quicker than both the class 47's and the HST's.

Virgin reformed it's HSTs into 2+5 formation in the last year or so of their service with XC so that they were able to keep to Voyager timings, however you are correct in saying that the 2+7 formations that Virgin operated previously and that Arriva XC operate now cannot strictly maintain Voyager timings.

 

[ryan125hst]

The class 87s were thirty years old when they were withdrawn, and they were West Coast stock - Crosscountry used class 86s, which were forty years old.

I had a feeling that I had meant the class 86!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

At one stage the order was going to include 67s+LHCS in 4/5 car formations but that got dropped at a fairly early stage in favour of a uniform fleet of Voyagers. So it was at least looked at as an option.

I never knew that! What coaching stock would they have used? New designs? Presumably they would have ordered more class 67's as they would still have been in production then wouldn't they?

 

[ainsworth74]

I never knew that! What coaching stock would they have used? New designs? Presumably they would have ordered more class 67's as they would still have been in production then wouldn't they?

I thought it was something Roger Ford had reported and I had read on his websites archive but I can't find it now annoyingly. However I did find a rather interesting plan that at one point VTXC were planning to procure a fleet of 3/4 car DMUs to replace their 47s+Mk2s (with a fast and frequent service, basically emulating Regional Railways in the 1980s when they did a similar thing) and additionally to be introduced in May 2004 were a fleet of 24 seven car DMUs to replace the HSTs.

 

[sprinterguy]

I never knew that! What coaching stock would they have used? New designs? Presumably they would have ordered more class 67's as they would still have been in production then wouldn't they?

It would have been a new design of coaching stock and the class 67s would have been single cabbed, with a driving trailer at the other end of the formation to allow push-pull operation.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I thought it was something Roger Ford had reported and I had read on his websites archive but I can't find it now annoyingly. However I did find a rather interesting plan that at one point VTXC were planning to procure a fleet of 3/4 car DMUs to replace their 47s+Mk2s (with a fast and frequent service, basically emulating Regional Railways in the 1980s when they did a similar thing) and additionally to be introduced in May 2004 were a fleet of 24 seven car DMUs to replace the HSTs.

It was indeed something that was reported by Roger Ford, and at the beginning of this year I dug through a number of old copies of Modern Railways looking for the relevant articles that detailed Virgin's loco hauled plans, in order to produce this post, which provides some more details of the originally proposed Crosscountry order:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=954899&postcount=166

 

[pinkpanther]

I travel on Crosscountry often. When a Voyager is quiet, it's an acceptable train. It's reasonably comfortable. It still feels more like a regional train than a long distance train, but if its not wedged, it's fine. They appear to have fixed the mobile phone signal blackout thing too.

Sadly though once they become busy they are horrible things - and the frequent appearance of 4 car units on very long distance services at peak times means they are very busy far more often than they are very empty. They just don't feel like suitable units for the services they are deployed on.

It's always nice to see a HST turn up instead.

I had an appalling experience on a packed 4 car Voyager from Birmingham to Bournemouth about 6 weeks ago. It was so cramped and hot (aircon failure) that I was in a right state by the time we were an hour or so into the journey - I've not felt that ill during a trip for a long time.

I was sufficiently freaked that I even tried to contact XC (by Twitter, then email) while travelling to report how crowded it was. They replied with platitudes 3 weeks later, and are now firmly on my s**t list.

Needless to say, the next time we travel we're going via London. I'd rather deal with SWT and Virgin/Chiltern than XC anytime.

 

[43074]

Liverpool does not need a service with the half hourly service to Birmingham. Brighton was only a one a day service and you would be better off changing in London anyway.

I did like the old network though, places like Cardiff, Liverpool, Brighton, Ramsgate, London Paddington, Poole and Weymouth getting limited services. Not to mention the Liverpool to Scotland services.

I would love an old timetable pre operation princess, does anyone know if there is one online?

A pre Operation Princess Timetable for both West Coast and CrossCountry services:
web.archive.org/web/20010612063959/http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/library/highspeedguide/virgin.pdf

 

[Martin_1981]

I had an appalling experience on a packed 4 car Voyager from Birmingham to Bournemouth about 6 weeks ago. It was so cramped and hot (aircon failure) that I was in a right state by the time we were an hour or so into the journey - I've not felt that ill during a trip for a long time.

I was sufficiently freaked that I even tried to contact XC (by Twitter, then email) while travelling to report how crowded it was. They replied with platitudes 3 weeks later, and are now firmly on my s**t list.

Needless to say, the next time we travel we're going via London. I'd rather deal with SWT and Virgin/Chiltern than XC anytime.

My worst trip on XC was 4 years ago, from Exeter to Birmingham. A bit of an impromptu trip due to car breakdown the previous day which meant I had no seat reservations. A Friday afternoon and a 4 coach Voyager doing Paignton-Newcastle. The train was pretty loaded on entering Exeter and catching it with 30 seconds to spare meant I was forced to stand as far as Bristol Parkway, around 1 hr 20 mins.

As previous posts state, had the voyagers been 6-7 coaches in length, there would have been far fewer issues with overcrowding.

 

[Temple Meads]

My worst trip on a Voyager was standing from Tiverton Parkway to Cheltenham Spa when I'd had 3 hours sleep, not great!

As I often say though, Voyagers only have 3 faults that ruin them, these are:

They are at least 1 carriage too short.
The interior fit and finish is below par.
The infamous toilet smell (though I don't hate it that much).

That's all that's really wrong with Voyagers IMO.

 

[caliwag]

I travel on Crosscountry often. When a Voyager is quiet, it's an acceptable train. It's reasonably comfortable. It still feels more like a regional train than a long distance train, but if its not wedged, it's fine. They appear to have fixed the mobile phone signal blackout thing too.

Sadly though once they become busy they are horrible things - and the frequent appearance of 4 car units on very long distance services at peak times means they are very busy far more often than they are very empty. They just don't feel like suitable units for the services they are deployed on.

It's always nice to see a HST turn up instead.

You can of course check when a 125 will turn up (usually) on the 125 group website/diagrammes...valuable and thanks to them.

 

[northwichcat]

Liverpool does not need a service with the half hourly service to Birmingham. Brighton was only a one a day service and you would be better off changing in London anyway.

I think the argument would be in the last 10 years around half the Liverpool services continued beyond Birmingham as did around half the Manchester services (even though the Liverpools were CT Turbostar services not Virgin Voyager services.)

Liverpool-Birmingham-Stansted Airport got split up when the 350s arrived. There was a proposal for it to remain and half the Manchester-Birmingham services to get 350s instead but Virgin objected to that.

 

[Goatboy]

You can of course check when a 125 will turn up (usually) on the 125 group website/diagrammes...valuable and thanks to them.

Yes, very useful. Sadly the HST's always tend to be the service an hour after whichever one I'm on. 16:25 Plymouth to Leeds is a particular bugbear of mine - always a Voyager, always rammed to capacity, always a pain to get a decent seat reservation even in advance yet the quieter 17:23 (You can tell its quieter as its usually got Advance tickets available on the shorter hops whereas the 16:25 never has) is an HST with twice the capacity. Doh!

 

[ainsworth74]

16:25 Plymouth to Leeds is a particular bugbear of mine - always a Voyager, always rammed to capacity, always a pain to get a decent seat reservation even in advance yet the quieter 17:23 is an HST with twice the capacity.

That would be because the HST that forms the 1723 hasn't arrived in Plymouth by 1625, in fact it's still more than twenty minutes away from Plymouth by the time the 1625 departs!

 

[Goatboy]

Absolutely, doesn't stop it being frustrating though

It is a shame that the diagrams can't be written so that the Voyager and the HST diagrams are swapped - but I guess there are logistical reasons why they've not done that.

 

[Bevan Price]

Whilst Liverpool now has its all-time most frequent service to Birmingham (2 per hour), it has lost many useful through services, with passengers being forced to change (at Birmingham, or elsewhere), often into trains that are overcrowded.

As an example, from the 1983/84 timetable, Liverpool had the following "cross - country" type departures (SX). All were loco hauled, probably about (loco + 9) at that time, but subsequently reduced to (loco + 7).
07:20 Poole
08:20 Reading
09:20 Penzance
11:20 Birmingham
13:20 Portsmouth Harbour
15:20 Poole
17:20, 19:20 Birmingham

or on summer saturdays:
23:35 (Friday night) Penzance
07:50 Poole
08:20 Paignton
09:20 Penzance
then as Mon. - Fri.

Liverpool to Scotland services mostly joined/split from Manchester portions at Preston.
Glasgow & Edinburgh portions were joined or split at Carstairs:

07:41 Liv./ 07:50 Man. Vic. - Glasgow & Edinburgh.
09:30 Liverpool - Glasgow & Edinburgh (summer only)
07:27 Nottingham - Man. Vic. (10:09) - Glasgow & Edinburgh
07:17 Harwich P.Quay - Man Vic. (13:12) - Glasgow & Edinburgh

In earlier years, there had also been a late afternoon Liverpool / Manchester - Scotland service.

Manchester Piccadilly had (SX):
08:25 Cardiff via Birmingham
09:20 Poole
10:23 Brighton
11:33 Plymouth
13:20 Portsmouth Harbour
15:23 Birmingham
16:25 Swansea
17:26 (FO) Birmingham
18:40 Reading
19:45 Birmingham
Plus 3 overnight summer FO services to Newquay, Paignton & Plymouth.

Summer saturday as SX, plus
09:31 Paignton
11:33 extended to Newquay.