CrossCountry Voyagers: No interior decor change in 12 years and counting

[mpthomson]

With many HST laying around this has to be a golden opitunity for XC as theres no sign of new stocks just yet and capacity is well needed, Obviously the HST need to be PRM compliant before being in passengers use again, with the mass delay of its PRM HST has started to steadying down it souldn't take as long as it took to get scotrail's/GWR/XC HST into service. XC have been concidering a couple of times on taking stored GWR (whatevers left) fleet but as far as i know, unconfirmed.

So much wishful thinking.... XC aren’t going to get any more HSTs, however much enthusiasts wish them to.

 

[SteveZodiac]

Pointless comment - of course it's in my opinion.

An opinion shared by others, too. Myself included.

 

[hooverboy]

It costs money to change the interior and it was not specified in the franchise award. As noted upthread there isn't enough slack in the fleet to take units out of service for a heavy rebuild. I am sure that individual seat covers get replaced on a regular basis even if it is not immediately noticable because it is a like or like change.



It is not inevitable - it is subject to the DfT deciding to support it - depends quite a bit on pressure from politicians I imagine. How many made increased capacity on Cross Country a priority in their campaigns.

depends more on who is awarded the franchise I think as well (virgin coming back again???)
I wouldn't expect anything much at all to happen with only about 18 months on the current one left. The franchisee will be in "coasting" mode at the moment and not wanting to front up much in the way of additional costs.

it seems like an open goal to get a couple of ex LNER HST sets on short-ish lease for 18 months or so like EMR has just done.
no Avanti voyagers available until 2022 in any case until 80X are ready.
(XC would probably save a fortune on delay repay ..or at least payback to customers who can't board due to overcrowding....not to mention improved patronage with a better quality service)

DfT really shouldn't have a problem with it as it's current stock on the routes already.

 

[GoneSouth]

So much wishful thinking.... XC aren’t going to get any more HSTs, however much enthusiasts wish them to.

I’m not an enthusiast, just a regular passenger who’d like a comfortable journey with a seat when I pay £100 for a ticket

 

[Will Mitchell]

Be careful what you wish for. It’s hard to think of a single interior refurb which hasn’t succeeded in making trains less comfortable than they used to be. They will swap out the existing lighting for 5000k LEDs, install ironing boards for seats and get rid of whatever skeleton catering facilities are left. It’s a race to the bottom.

 

[greatvoyager]

Be careful what you wish for. It’s hard to think of a single interior refurb which hasn’t succeeded in making trains less comfortable than they used to be. They will swap out the existing lighting for 5000k LEDs, install ironing boards for seats and get rid of whatever skeleton catering facilities are left. It’s a race to the bottom.

I think the XC hst refurbishment of 2008 was fine, just the right amount of lighting and comfy seating. If XC could do that on the 22x, I think that would be okay.

 

[greatvoyager]

So much wishful thinking.... XC aren’t going to get any more HSTs, however much enthusiasts wish them to.

Which is why they should be investing in their 22x fleet and making it look a little less tired.

 

[GoneSouth]

I think the XC hst refurbishment of 2008 was fine, just the right amount of lighting and comfy seating. If XC could do that on the 22x, I think that would be okay.

Me too but the comments above about eye burning lighting is valid on recent refurbs apart from the XC HSTs. Creating a relaxing environment for long distance trains should be the aim, not shock people into ultra alert mode. Even bargain basement airlines don’t do bad a job inThis respect as they have individual reading lights so you have some control over your environment. Voyager used to have this but I don’t know if they still work as I’ve not seen anybody using them for a very long time.

 

[greatvoyager]

Me too but the comments above about eye burning lighting is valid on recent refurbs apart from the XC HSTs. Creating a relaxing environment for long distance trains should be the aim, not shock people into ultra alert mode. Even bargain basement airlines don’t do bad a job inThis respect as they have individual reading lights so you have some control over your environment. Voyager used to have this but I don’t know if they still work as I’ve not seen anybody using them for a very long time.

I believe they still work, and hopefully they will be retained during any refurb (if they ever get one, that is).

 

[coradiafan2000]

Be careful what you wish for. It’s hard to think of a single interior refurb which hasn’t succeeded in making trains less comfortable than they used to be. They will swap out the existing lighting for 5000k LEDs, install ironing boards for seats and get rid of whatever skeleton catering facilities are left. It’s a race to the bottom.

I thought the TPE 185 refurbishment was an improvement?

 

[Will Mitchell]

I thought the TPE 185 refurbishment was an improvement?

I’ll have to take your word for it. But in general it seems to me that train ‘designers’ (if you can call them that) are trying their best to make rail travel (especially long distance) an endurance test. It’s criminal, especially at a time when we’re supposedly trying to win over the motorists and frequent flyers.
One of rail’s competitive advantages should be comfort and a level of onboard amenities that cannot be matched by other modes.

 

[greatvoyager]

I’ll have to take your word for it. But in general it seems to me that train ‘designers’ (if you can call them that) are trying their best to make rail travel (especially long distance) an endurance test. It’s criminal, especially at a time when we’re supposedly trying to win over the motorists and frequent flyers.
One of rail’s competitive advantages should be comfort and a level of onboard amenities that cannot be matched by other modes.

Perhaps if Arriva could try and properly focus on the franchise as, apart from adding 221144 to the fleet, they've pretty much left it unaltered. They took the Tim to refurbish 179s, so they should be looking at undertaking a proper refurbishment on voyagers. Lighting is the one area I wouldn't change, but other parts are really showing their age.

 

[greatvoyager]

I thought the TPE 185 refurbishment was an improvement?

I agree... Then again, it seems to me that most operators feel that in order to keep everything fresh, they have to make radical changes. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. XC at the moment seem indifferent.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I thought the TPE 185 refurbishment was an improvement?

It most definitely was, took the 185 from a rather average train with (in my opinion) an vile colour scheme, to a really nice train with a DB/SBB feel to it.

First also really improved the HSTs, especially in First class - the transformation was amazing and totally counteracts what you said about lighting. The standard class refurbishment seen in today’s castle sets is also much nicer on the eye.

 

[coradiafan2000]

I’ll have to take your word for it. But in general it seems to me that train ‘designers’ (if you can call them that) are trying their best to make rail travel (especially long distance) an endurance test. It’s criminal, especially at a time when we’re supposedly trying to win over the motorists and frequent flyers.
One of rail’s competitive advantages should be comfort and a level of onboard amenities that cannot be matched by other modes.

I'll agree with you on that. It's not just refurbished stock- I find new trains are more uncomfortable. I sorely miss HSTs on the Great Western main line, as 800s are much less pleasurable to travel on in my opinion. I assume the Azumas aren't much better. I had my first ride on a 195 back in September, and I thought it wasn't as comfortable as a 170 or even a 158.

 

[greatvoyager]

I'll agree with you on that. It's not just refurbished stock- I find new trains are more uncomfortable. I sorely miss HSTs on the Great Western main line, as 800s are much less pleasurable to travel on in my opinion. I assume the Azumas aren't much better. I had my first ride on a 195 back in September, and I thought it wasn't as comfortable as a 170 or even a 158.

Almost makes me wonder what the best option would be for voyagers. Rip out the sears and replace with a new design, or put new cushions and padding on the current design.

 

[coradiafan2000]

Almost makes me wonder what the best option would be for voyagers. Rip out the sears and replace with a new design, or put new cushions and padding on the current design.

The best option would be to just give them a bit of a clean more often. If they decide to majorly change the interior I don't trust them to not screw it up.

 

[greatvoyager]

The best option would be to just give them a bit of a clean more often. If they decide to majorly change the interior I don't trust them to not screw it up.

I would agree, but at the same time, they did a good job with the HSTs, so they could do something good with the 22x units. I guess there wont be any refurbishment until the franchise is resolved.

 

[Dan15812]

I would agree, but at the same time, they did a good job with the HSTs, so they could do something good with the 22x units. I guess there wont be any refurbishment until the franchise is resolved.

For me an ideal refurbishment would be something like what Virgin did on the East Coast.
Gutt them to shell. Install new toliets. The best seats to use are grammer IC3000 seats like on GWR and SR HST's. Theses seats are more comfortable and are less bulky.
https://www.grammer.co.uk/ic3000-train-seat

 

[coradiafan2000]

For me an ideal refurbishment would be something like what Virgin did on the East Coast.
Gutt them to shell. Install new toliets. The best seats to use are grammer IC3000 seats like on GWR and SR HST's. Theses seats are more comfortable and are less bulky.
https://www.grammer.co.uk/ic3000-train-seat

I'd agree with that.

 

[greatvoyager]

I'd agree with that.

That would be fine by me, as long as they aren't as cramped in as much as the GWR HSTs. I'm all for any additional seats, but it was a bit claustrophobic.

 

[coradiafan2000]

That would be fine by me, as long as they aren't as cramped in as much as the GWR HSTs. I'm all for any additional seats, but it was a bit claustrophobic.

Not as claustrophobic as Pendolinos. I'm not a huge fan of those GWR seats (when it comes to feeling enclosed),but they've never made me feel genuinely claustrophobic like the 390 seats. Hopefully Avanti will get new seats that minimise that feeling without sacrificing comfort.

 

[fgwrich]

Almost makes me wonder what the best option would be for voyagers. Rip out the sears and replace with a new design, or put new cushions and padding on the current design.

Given how dented / battered and scratched a lot of the XC Voyager seats have become, I would also vote for their replacement. It would also be nice to see the back of the former Virgin Radio entertainment system, long after it's official abandonment by Virgin themselves!

 

[greatvoyager]

Not as claustrophobic as Pendolinos. I'm not a huge fan of those GWR seats (when it comes to feeling enclosed),but they've never made me feel genuinely claustrophobic like the 390 seats. Hopefully Avanti will get new seats that minimise that feeling without sacrificing comfort.

I hope if (or hopefully, when), XC voyagers get refurbished, it is to a standard that most people will find to be comfortable.

 

[coradiafan2000]

Given how dented / battered and scratched a lot of the XC Voyager seats have become, I would also vote for their replacement. It would also be nice to see the back of the former Virgin Radio entertainment system, long after it's official abandonment by Virgin themselves!

With the advent of smartphones and streaming services, including some being made by TOCs (Virgin BEAM, TPE EXstream), there really isn't much of a reason why it would be needed. Not when you can just connect to the WIFI and put in some earphones to listen to the radio or your own music. It's a neat idea, but it isn't necessary in 2019.

 

[S-Bahn]

XCs rolling stock is just not sufficient for the passenger numbers wanting to use it. I saw two HSTs cross on Saturday at Bristol Temple Meads and they were both busy and a lot of people getting off and on as well.

Refurbishment of the Voyagers would be nice, but they aren't up to the job now.

1. Short term - get some HSTs in and double up the existing voyagers
2. Mid term - refurb the Voyagers so they are all the same after cascades of Avanti's stock (and take the Meridians off EMR).
3. Longer term - 7 or 8 coach 8xx IETs for the principle routes and downgrade the voyagers to other routes/franchises.

 

[JonathanH]

1. Short term - get some HSTs in and double up the existing voyagers

How many times does this have to be dismissed? It is not going to happen. There is nowhere to service them, crews aren't trained and the ORR will not allow trains with droplights in the doors to be used in service over new routes.

2. Mid term - refurb the Voyagers so they are all the same after cascades of Avanti's stock (and take the Meridians off EMR).

This is up to the DfT. I would imagine them to sanction the least possible amount of additional rolling stock for CrossCountry. A big uplift in stock needs servicing. Is there capacity at the various locations to service twice the current amount of rolling stock almost overnight? There may well not be.

 

[Goldfish62]

How many times does this have to be dismissed? It is not going to happen. There is nowhere to service them, crews aren't trained and the ORR will not allow trains with droplights in the doors to be used in service over new routes.


.

Use them on existing routes then and displace Voyagers to other routes. Service them at Laira.

 

[greatvoyager]

Use them on existing routes then and displace Voyagers to other routes. Service them at Laira.

How long would it take to make additional HSTs PRM compliant? It took over 2 years for their current sets and I think 1 set is still being done.

 

[greatvoyager]

Once they get a refresh, and if they get the remaining 22x units, then I think the problems can be resolved. It seems to me that XC services are seen as secondary by some companies as it completely avoids London, do I wonder if that has contributed to the lack of extensive refurbishment.