CrossCountry's Driver Shortage

[Bald Rick]

It can be done if all existing drivers are offered the chance to bring Sundays inside, with all new joiners coming in on that basis, but with those who wish to keep their Sundays outside being put into a separate link.

But the drivers (orat least their reps) at some TOCs will not accept that. Personally i don’t understand why, but then there’s lots I don’t understand.

Actually it is more a case of putting the cost into different buckets, and DfT only counting one.

I have yet to see any evidence that employing an extra driver costs more than say a driver not working 2 services on a Sunday and there being 200 delay repay refunds.

It is as if someone seems to know cost of the extra driver, but completely forgets the cost of the cancellation (and amount of fare likely to be refunded) due to lack of driver.

Oh, they know.

 

[irish_rail]

But the drivers (orat least their reps) at some TOCs will not accept that. Personally i don’t understand why, but then there’s lots I don’t understand.




Oh, they know.

Probably because "their reps" realise that those drivers who end up in the NO Sunday link would , after a while be treated terribly and over time get less and less work, and end up in a dwindling link with minimal route and traction knowledge whilst those newbies who want to work every day of the week take all the cushy work.
The reps recognise that the way forward is for EVERYONE to have the same terms and conditions by bringing Sunday into the working week and ridding the railway of the cancer that is enforced overtime (committed sundays).

 

[PLY2AYS]

Probably because "their reps" realise that those drivers who end up in the NO Sunday link would , after a while be treated terribly and over time get less and less work, and end up in a dwindling link with minimal route and traction knowledge whilst those newbies who want to work every day of the week take all the cushy work.
The reps recognise that the way forward is for EVERYONE to have the same terms and conditions by bringing Sunday into the working week and ridding the railway of the cancer that is enforced overtime (committed sundays).

Louder for the people at the back!

 

[Harpo]

ridding the railway of the cancer that is enforced overtime (committed sundays).

Perhaps it’s better explained to some by suggesting that their 40 hour week be split into 30 hours salaried plus 10 hours compulsory overtime, with the reduced 30 hour portion becoming the new smaller pensionable bit.

 

[Bald Rick]

Probably because "their reps" realise that those drivers who end up in the NO Sunday link would , after a while be treated terribly and over time get less and less work, and end up in a dwindling link with minimal route and traction knowledge whilst those newbies who want to work every day of the week take all the cushy work.

Is that what has happened at EMR?

 

[Timetraveller]

Perhaps it’s better explained to some by suggesting that their 40 hour week be split into 30 hours salaried plus 10 hours compulsory overtime, with the reduced 30 hour portion becoming the new smaller pensionable bit.

Would you put up with a reduced pension?
The situation with drivers is only going to get worse as more are due for retirement than can be recruited and trained up to replace them. There is a percentage limit on FTE which the DFT imposed which includes trainees so they can't go over.

 

[Harpo]

Would you put up with a reduced pension?

I’m not suggesting reducing anyone’s pension just highlighting the effects of the abusive practice of compulsory overtime.

 

[1000 rounders]

Probably because "their reps" realise that those drivers who end up in the NO Sunday link would , after a while be treated terribly and over time get less and less work, and end up in a dwindling link with minimal route and traction knowledge whilst those newbies who want to work every day of the week take all the cushy work.
The reps recognise that the way forward is for EVERYONE to have the same terms and conditions by bringing Sunday into the working week and ridding the railway of the cancer that is enforced overtime (committed sundays).

That should be the goal, everyone on the same t&c’s with Sundays inside and the TOCs paying the right amount for it.

 

[baz962]

Probably because "their reps" realise that those drivers who end up in the NO Sunday link would , after a while be treated terribly and over time get less and less work, and end up in a dwindling link with minimal route and traction knowledge whilst those newbies who want to work every day of the week take all the cushy work.
The reps recognise that the way forward is for EVERYONE to have the same terms and conditions by bringing Sunday into the working week and ridding the railway of the cancer that is enforced overtime (committed sundays).

Actually opposite at our place. The non Sundays link is now so small that they don't have nights because they would come round too often. They don't have the earliest starts or the latest finishes either. Kind of treated better .

Is that what has happened at EMR?

See my reply to that.

 

[irish_rail]

Is that what has happened at EMR?

I can't comment on EMR, however it is obvious on GWR that the better work is gradually being taken away from the HSS side as numbers dwindle, so there is every chance that the same would happen where a non Sunday link established.

 

[LowLevel]

I can't comment on EMR, however it is obvious on GWR that the better work is gradually being taken away from the HSS side as numbers dwindle, so there is every chance that the same would happen where a non Sunday link established.

The difference with EMR in many cases is the implementation though it varies by depot - for example at Nottingham on the drivers side they don't have a Sunday in or out link, just extra rest days vice spare days for those who work Sundays in the normal links so the work is all the same to all intents and purposes.

 

[Class 170101]

The Cardiff services are worked by mainly New St & Bristol Drivers - and both of these depots are under their establishments. Leicester depot however, don't go past Nottingham or New St and are carrying staff.

But in that case then why aren't Leicester doing more work between Nottingham and New Street to release drivers at New Street to do more Cardiff work and less Nottingham work?

 

[43066]

But the drivers (orat least their reps) at some TOCs will not accept that. Personally i don’t understand why, but then there’s lots I don’t understand.

At others they have. And at XC they have accepted committed Sundays which are the worst of all worlds.

The fact is ASLEF will negotiate for this, but it has never been seriously suggested as part of any pay deal in many places because it’s seen as too expensive and (latterly) there has been no appetite for it at a DfT level. We know from the last industrial dispute that the DfT wanted to expand committed Sundays. Simply blaming ASLEF for the situation doesn’t change anything and won’t move things forward.

For balance, as an ASLEF member, if I was at a TOC with Sundays outside, and there was a possibility of bringing them in, I’d want ASLEF to put that to a vote - and I’m confident the majority of drivers would be in favour these days.

RProbably because "their reps" realise that those drivers who end up in the NO Sunday link would , after a while be treated terribly and over time get less and less work, and end up in a dwindling link with minimal route and traction knowledge whilst those newbies who want to work every day of the week take all the cushy work.

This simply isn’t the case - the Sundays outside link do exactly the same work as their colleagues, just with Sundays outside.

But in that case then why aren't Leicester doing more work between Nottingham and New Street to release drivers at New Street to do more Cardiff work and less Nottingham work?

XC Leicester isn’t called “the holiday camp” for nothing.

Actually opposite at our place. The non Sundays link is now so small that they don't have nights because they would come round too often. They don't have the earliest starts or the latest finishes either. Kind of treated better .

Because the person who built the roster is in that link himself, and it’s effectively an “old man’s link”. We are all very well aware that, aren’t we, and it does nothing for harmony within the depot…

In theory, though, they get exactly the same work as the rest of us, so there’s no reason in principle why anyone currently employed should be against such an arrangement.

 

[Dr Day]

Perhaps it’s better explained to some by suggesting that their 40 hour week be split into 30 hours salaried plus 10 hours compulsory overtime, with the reduced 30 hour portion becoming the new smaller pensionable bit.

Still trying to get my head around this as a frustrated traveller.

What are the contracted weekly hours for an XC driver and senior conductor/train manager? Or monthly/annual if it works like that given variable shifts. Ie the minimum they have to work any day of the week even if some of it is labelled ‘compulsory overtime’?

 

[NEDdrv]

Still trying to get my head around this as a frustrated traveller.

What are the contracted weekly hours for an XC driver and senior conductor/train manager? Or monthly/annual if it works like that given variable shifts. Ie the minimum they have to work any day of the week even if some of it is labelled ‘compulsory overtime’?

Drivers have an average 35 hr week through their roster, min day is 5hrs max rostered day is 10 hrs

 

[Harpo]

Still trying to get my head around this as a frustrated traveller.

Sorry. Didn’t mean to confuse. My point is that there is a base salary that is then used for pensionable pay. On top of that can be compulsory overtime (committed Sundays) which is not pensionable. It’s just a higher end version of the zero hours contract wheeze.

The compulsory (or voluntary) Sundays also avoid employing the real and extra number of people needed to operate all services.

 

[GoneSouth]

I’m very confused now. Are Sundays compulsory or voluntary. Does committed mean they must be worked or are there ways to avoid it.

It all sounds very messy

 

[Krokodil]

I’m very confused now. Are Sundays compulsory or voluntary. Does committed mean they must be worked or are there ways to avoid it.

It all sounds very messy

"Committed" means that you must work the overtime unless someone else is willing to cover it.

 

[Harpo]

I’m very confused now. Are Sundays compulsory or voluntary. Does committed mean they must be worked or are there ways to avoid it.

It all sounds very messy

It varies by train operator with three main types of employment contract:

- Sundays ‘inside’. Part of the ordinary working week so the company employs enough people to do that.
- Sundays outside & voluntary. Paid as overtime (rates vary!) but optional
- Sundays outside & committed. Paid as overtime (rates vary) but not optional.

 

[43066]

I’m very confused now. Are Sundays compulsory or voluntary. Does committed mean they must be worked or are there ways to avoid it.

It all sounds very messy

In practice if people don’t show up or go sick on committed Sundays not much generally happens - they tend not to count for MFA policies as they’re classed as overtime. Another reason why they’re an unsatisfactory solution for all parties.

 

[Bald Rick]

It varies by train operator with three main types of employment contract:

- Sundays ‘inside’. Part of the ordinary working week so the company employs enough people to do that.
- Sundays outside & voluntary. Paid as overtime (rates vary!) but optional
- Sundays outside & committed. Paid as overtime (rates vary) but not optional.

and:

Sundays outside & committed & ‘escapable’ - ie it’s on the roster, you are expected to work it, but with sufficient notice say you are not going to.

 

[Horizon22]

I'll also like to keep mine outside, but then I work as many as I can get my hands on.

See that just isn't sustainable. Because then when you don't want to do one for whatever reason - and it is likely that particular Sunday others will feel the same - the service falls apart. It's such a fragile way to operate a train service essentially on the whims of whether a driver wants to work on not.

And I'm not saying that you're not entitled to do that as of course you are as it stands, but it simply isn't a good way to run a public transport service.

If there is just ONE thing I want GBR to sort, it is a commitment to bring Sunday into the working week for train crew, everywhere.

 

[GoneSouth]

So Sundays are committed and compulsory, but in reality nobody respects this and even though XC have enough crew booked they can’t take any sanctions for not showing up for a shift and can’t run the service. Or have I misunderstood?

 

[Dr Day]

and:

Sundays outside & committed & ‘escapable’ - ie it’s on the roster, you are expected to work it, but with sufficient notice say you are not going to.

So, if I’ve understood correctly, this is the situation at XC:

The drivers can, if they wish, only work 35 hours a week. They are expected to work another 5-10 if they happen to be rostered on a Sunday but aren’t in trouble if they say with sufficient notice that they aren’t coming in. If they do come in then they are paid for Sundays at an overtime hourly or daily rate, but this salary is excluded from pension contribution calculations? Is that the summary?

I appreciate there are different situations at other TOCs and there have been thousands of threads on this general topic but it isn’t always clear to the lay reader so thank you to @Bald Rick and others for clarifying things on this specific thread.

 

[NEDdrv]

So Sundays are committed and compulsory, but in reality nobody respects this and even though XC have enough crew booked they can’t take any sanctions for not showing up for a shift and can’t run the service. Or have I misunderstood?

Sundays are committed, you can ask for it off and if it can be covered by a spare you will be granted it off or you can get someone else to work it for you or as I said before if it’s a middle Sunday of 2 weeks annual leave or the Sunday before or after a week of annual leave you can have that off. Other than that you are expected to turn up for your rostered Sunday turn.

 

[Horizon22]

Sundays are committed, you can ask for it off and if it can be covered by a spare you will be granted it off or you can get someone else to work it for you or as I said before if it’s a middle Sunday of 2 weeks annual leave or the Sunday before or after a week of annual leave you can have that off. Other than that you are expected to turn up for your rostered Sunday turn.

Yes but many have alluded to if you don't turn up for your rostered Sunday turn, does anything actually come of it? Providing sufficient notice is often enough. Otherwise there would not be a problem.

 

[NEDdrv]

So, if I’ve understood correctly, this is the situation at XC:

The drivers can, if they wish, only work 35 hours a week. They are expected to work another 5-10 if they happen to be rostered on a Sunday but aren’t in trouble if they say with sufficient notice that they aren’t coming in. If they do come in then they are paid for Sundays at an overtime hourly or daily rate, but this salary is excluded from pension contribution calculations? Is that the summary?

I appreciate there are different situations at other TOCs and there have been thousands of threads on this general topic but it isn’t always clear to the lay reader so thank you to @Bald Rick and others for clarifying things on this specific thread.

No you work your link hours for that specific week which could entail 4 days of 9hr 50 diagrams

 

[Horizon22]

No you work your link hours for that specific week which could entail 4 days of 9hr 50 diagrams

Yes it could, but obviously it averages out over X number of weeks - and hence some weeks will be less - as per the roster.

 

[NEDdrv]

Yes but many have alluded to if you don't turn up for your rostered Sunday turn, does anything actually come of it? Providing sufficient notice is often enough. Otherwise there would not be a problem.

In 23 years I have only known of maybe 4 occasions where a driver at my depot has not turned in for a booked Sunday, they get a sit down with the DTM.

 

[Dr Day]

No you work your link hours for that specific week which could entail 4 days of 9hr 50 diagrams

Ok, so an average of 35 hours excluding Sundays a week noting some weeks are longer than others?