Crossrail 2 alternative suggestions

[kevin_roche]

If you added the 8tph to the SWR network, broadly along the lines of a 50% increase in service (those services which of through Woking) frequency (i.e. Salisbury gets 2tph so would have 3tph, it doesn't quite fit and not would there be enough paths on some lines for it to work, but as a general principle to give you an idea of the benefits) you'd likely see a significant increase in passengers over a fairly short period.

I would love to see a turn up and go style service.

 

[The Ham]

I would love to see a turn up and go style service.

I feel a lot is people would, which would increase usage.

 

[kevin_roche]

Construction News is reporting that the Government has allocated £6 million for Crossrail 2 Planning.

CN understands that the funding also includes cash the transport ministry had requested in order to plan how to develop the proposed cross-London rail link, running from Surrey to Hertfordshire.

Mr Javid promised an “infrastructure revolution” in his spending round speech to parliament a fortnight ago, however plans for Crossrail 2 are dependent on agreements between co-sponsors TfL and DfT being worked out.

A confirmed route plan and funding package are among outstanding issues to be decided.

TfL managing director for Crossrail 2 Michele Dix said: “We are pleased to receive confirmation that DfT has committed £6m of development monies for Crossrail 2 in the spending round for 2020/21.

“We submitted the fifth Crossrail 2 strategic outline business case in the summer and we now await confirmation of next steps from the government.

“We will continue to work closely with them on proposals whilst developing long-term funding strategies.”

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Construction News is reporting that the Government has allocated £6 million for Crossrail 2 Planning.

From that link:

A confirmed route plan and funding package are among outstanding issues to be decided.

I thought we already had a reasonably firm route plan?

 

[samuelmorris]

From that link:



I thought we already had a reasonably firm route plan?

I know it was narrowed down to a very small number of options, but I don't think it's been finalised yet. I do wonder what the £6m is for, specifically - that won't get you much in today's terms. Look at how much money HS2 spent before any physical work was carried out. That's not an indictment of HS2, it's just simply stating how much money goes into the development and design of these sorts of projects these days.

 

[kevin_roche]

I thought we already had a reasonably firm route plan?

I think they have to decide between the Balham and Tooting Broadway routes and possibly between Wood Green and Turnpike Lane.

I think the ground conditions make the Tooting Broadway route more expensive but more passengers would be likely to benefit.

 

[hwl]

I know it was narrowed down to a very small number of options, but I don't think it's been finalised yet. I do wonder what the £6m is for, specifically - that won't get you much in today's terms. Look at how much money HS2 spent before any physical work was carried out. That's not an indictment of HS2, it's just simply stating how much money goes into the development and design of these sorts of projects these days.

Cover the salary and some consultancy costs till Easter?

 

[samuelmorris]

Cover the salary and some consultancy costs till Easter?

That's probably it, yes. A cost that will only grow as uncertainty mounts over CR2 given the CR1 delays.

 

[matt_world2004]

Boris will probably support crossrail 2 given that he likes infrastructure and was a supporter for crossrail one. TfL also took the ilford tunnelling construction academy in house after tunnelling completed on Crossrail to make an effective use of that resource they probably need one tunnelling project going on at any one time.

 

[Bald Rick]

Cover the salary and some consultancy costs till Easter?

The £6m was in the spending review, so is for the next financial year ie 2020/21. Also don’t forget it’s joint funded with DfT.

TfL will be putting some of their own money in, you would think. TfL investment committee papers available on their website show that TfL put in £20m in the current financial year, so its possible they will allocate something similar next year.

 

[jopsuk]

• What the hell is the point in having it go all the way to Epsom?

Epsom should have been in Greater London, but the residents were fools when the question was asked in the 70s. Regardless, in the current zones, Stoneleigh (the first station on the line outside of "London" is in Zone 5, Ewell West is Zone 6 - and the two Southern stations at the racecourse, which is "further out" geographically, are in Zone 6.

Epsom is definitely part of the contiguous metropolitan area of London, more so than the Essex bits of the Central Line. As it is likely the northern end will go to Hertford and/or Harlow, Epsom really does seem like a sensible place to serve to the south.
And if we were to take Crossrail 1 as an example, I'd suggest the Epsom services running to the current terminals for the Waterloo-Mole Valley services, Dorking & Guildford

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Crossrail 2 seems so remote at this point, it makes me think whether a simple Battersea-Victoria-West End-Euston Metro might be better. Something that couldn’t cost more than £10 billion.

Regarding the main project, I’m confused as to why Bond Street isn’t a better stop. TCR is a bit of a backwater in the West End, most of the large shops are on the Bond Street to Oxford Circus section, as so Is most of the offices around Hanover Square and Mayfair.

 

[PeterC]

Crossrail 2 seems so remote at this point, it makes me think whether a simple Battersea-Victoria-West End-Euston Metro might be better. Something that couldn’t cost more than £10 billion.

Regarding the main project, I’m confused as to why Bond Street isn’t a better stop. TCR is a bit of a backwater in the West End, most of the large shops are on the Bond Street to Oxford Circus section, as so Is most of the offices around Hanover Square and Mayfair.

Trouble is that you need a depot location. Extending into the suburbs in one direction really needs a balancing extension on the other side. Then the local and national politicians get in on the act and want it to go a bit further into their constituencies. Once that is all sorted there is another round of complaints that the line is now too long for metro style trains and they want fast services and trains with toilets etc etc. (actually I like your idea, but it is so difficult to keep a lid on scope creep in any project especially when elected politicians get a finger in the pie)

 

[matt_world2004]

Crossrail 2 seems so remote at this point, it makes me think whether a simple Battersea-Victoria-West End-Euston Metro might be better. Something that couldn’t cost more than £10 billion.

Regarding the main project, I’m confused as to why Bond Street isn’t a better stop. TCR is a bit of a backwater in the West End, most of the large shops are on the Bond Street to Oxford Circus section, as so Is most of the offices around Hanover Square and Mayfair.

Only building the tunnel section of cr2 would save on about 5% of the development cost, result in significanrly less passengers and significanrly less revenue.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Trouble is that you need a depot location. Extending into the suburbs in one direction really needs a balancing extension on the other side. Then the local and national politicians get in on the act and want it to go a bit further into their constituencies. Once that is all sorted there is another round of complaints that the line is now too long for metro style trains and they want fast services and trains with toilets etc etc. (actually I like your idea, but it is so difficult to keep a lid on scope creep in any project especially when elected politicians get a finger in the pie)

I suppose you could build a depot in the Battersea Stewart’s Lane area, might have to get rid of the cement site or the Post Office Depot.

Another possible solution to a cheap Crossrail 2 is a simple Finsbury Park to Battersea Tunnel. However the discussion has been done numerous times over on London Reconnections that Having CR2 dump all the City passengers on CR1 is unobtainable. The best thing would be to have CR2 to connect with the BML and a potential CR3 connecting Waterloo and Liverpool Street. Maybe with a cross platform interchange at an underground station at Battersea. Clearly this isn’t going to happen, but I do think it would be a mistake to connect the SWML with the West End and not the City.

 

[kevin_roche]

Regarding the main project, I’m confused as to why Bond Street isn’t a better stop. TCR is a bit of a backwater in the West End, most of the large shops are on the Bond Street to Oxford Circus section, as so Is most of the offices around Hanover Square and Mayfair.

The Crossrail1 station at TCR already has work done and ready for the interchange with Crossrail2. So I'm guessing any change to the location for the interchange would add to costs.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Regarding the main project, I’m confused as to why Bond Street isn’t a better stop. TCR is a bit of a backwater in the West End, most of the large shops are on the Bond Street to Oxford Circus section, as so Is most of the offices around Hanover Square and Mayfair.

I wouldn't call Tottenham Court Road a backwater. Yes, it's right at the end of the shopping area, but it's also within easy walking distance of Covent Garden and Leicester Square - both huge tourist areas, then the area to the North/East is more of a business area - which still means a lot of people. The 2017 usage figures actually show Tottenham Court Road as having slightly more entries/exits than Bond Street (41M against 39M).

It's possible there may also be issues about where there is actually space underground to build platforms, but I'm speculating there - I don't know for certain.

 

[Class 170101]

Epsom is definitely part of the contiguous metropolitan area of London, more so than the Essex bits of the Central Line. As it is likely the northern end will go to Hertford and/or Harlow,

No don't send it to Harlow!.

 

[camflyer]

No don't send it to Harlow!.

Why not Harlow? CR2 is the sort of investment that the town desperately needs. Harlow Council have put in a bid to be the northern terminus.

 

[sprunt]

Have they decided yet whether to go ahead with the Kings Road station, which must be the only ever proposed railway station to have a local campaign against it?

 

[Malcolmffc]

Have they decided yet whether to go ahead with the Kings Road station, which must be the only ever proposed railway station to have a local campaign against it?

Depressingly I suspect the rich local residents agahast at the prospect of common folk being able to get to their neighbourhood more easily will get their way

 

[matt_world2004]

Depressingly I suspect the rich local residents agahast at the prospect of common folk being able to get to their neighbourhood more easily will get their way

Cant have the common folk visiting from ponders end can we.

 

[Class 170101]

Why not Harlow? CR2 is the sort of investment that the town desperately needs. Harlow Council have put in a bid to be the northern terminus.

Outside of Greater London for a start. Are they putting up any money to modify the infrastructure at Harlow Town Station? I doubt it.

Hertford East would be a more appropriate place to go as a terminus and would allow fatser trains to run to Harlow Town. For the same reason no one will change at / begin a Crossrail journey at Shenfield passengers from Harlow will use faster services to Tottenham Hale and change there.

 

[Ianno87]

Why not Harlow? CR2 is the sort of investment that the town desperately needs. Harlow Council have put in a bid to be the northern terminus.

Outside of Greater London for a start. Are they putting up any money to modify the infrastructure at Harlow Town Station? I doubt it.

Hertford East would be a more appropriate place to go as a terminus and would allow fatser trains to run to Harlow Town. For the same reason no one will change at / begin a Crossrail journey at Shenfield passengers from Harlow will use faster services to Tottenham Hale and change there.

And Harlow might benefit from Crossrail 2 services picking up the local stops south of Cheshunt, so existing WAML services could be accelerates.

 

[The Ham]

As I don't think I can create polls within an existing thread:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/should-we-build-crossrail-2.192472/

Should we build Crossrail 2?

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Not in its current form

 

[Jonny]

• What the hell is the point in having it go all the way to Epsom?

A cynic might think that they were trying to attract national-level funding, rather than having TfL pay for it all.

Except that this is a TfL scheme thinly disguised as a national scheme. At least the first Crossrail meant some meaningful improvements to the infrastructure (including a large part of the GWML electrification). It's harder to make that case for Crossrail 2.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I wouldn't call Tottenham Court Road a backwater. Yes, it's right at the end of the shopping area, but it's also within easy walking distance of Covent Garden and Leicester Square - both huge tourist areas, then the area to the North/East is more of a business area - which still means a lot of people. The 2017 usage figures actually show Tottenham Court Road as having slightly more entries/exits than Bond Street (41M against 39M).
It's possible there may also be issues about where there is actually space underground to build platforms, but I'm speculating there - I don't know for certain.

The area to the north-east of TCR station (though not the north and the east generally, if that's what you mean by North/East) is not more of a business area. A large proportion of Bloomsbury - which is the quadrant NE of TCR station - is academic institutions, plus the British Museum, plus (and this is frequently overlooked by planners, including those in the local council, Camden, who should know better [or do know, but don't care]) a large number of homes, many of them of ordinary people who've lived there for much if not all of their (our) lives. [You might remember, for example, that the new British Library was once - 50 years back - due to be built on the 7 acres in front of the BM, until the thousand or so people whose homes were to be flattened ran a successful campaign to stop it.] Given planners' desires to build swish business-friendly infrastructure for visitors and fat-cats, the experience of those of us living in the area is that local transport schemes (both public transport and roads, including the TCR developments) frequently make life worse for those of us who have the temerity to live here - worse in terms of safe and accessible local transport and in terms of other day-to-day local facilities.

According to a recent International Medical Geography Symposium, two of the ten unhealthiest places in the whole of Britain were areas in the immediate vicinity of TCR station. Recent "improvements" in the area have - as far as this local resident's experience goes - only exacerbated that, and the further expansion of TCR station will make our lives even worse.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

A cynic might think that they were trying to attract national-level funding, rather than having TfL pay for it all.

Except that this is a TfL scheme thinly disguised as a national scheme. At least the first Crossrail meant some meaningful improvements to the infrastructure (including a large part of the GWML electrification). It's harder to make that case for Crossrail 2.

Eh? Crossrail2 will have benefits far beyond London into the SWR network, because it will absorb many (most?) of the metro services that currently run via Wimbledon to Waterloo - which frees up badly needed paths for more faster trains from beyond Woking. Don't assume that, just because all the actual construction work will take place in London that that's the only place that has an interest in the scheme.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The area to the north-east of TCR station (though not the north and the east generally, if that's what you mean by North/East) is not more of a business area. A large proportion of Bloomsbury - which is the quadrant NE of TCR station - is academic institutions, plus the British Museum, plus (and this is frequently overlooked by planners, including those in the local council, Camden, who should know better [or do know, but don't care]) a large number of homes, many of them of ordinary people who've lived there for much if not all of their (our) lives.

Ah, fair enough. I did actually wonder when I wrote that whether I should add 'student area' but I was sufficiently confident that it had a denser population of students and colleges than you find in - well, quite a lot of London, really

I also get the impression from discussions with some acquaintances that much of central London - not just the TCR area - has a much higher population of residents than most people would suspect (since often you have buildings that are shops or businesses on the first floor, so casual visitors wouldn't realise that it's actually residences above that) - but I'm willing to be corrected if anyone knows better.