Crossrail 2 alternative suggestions

[AlbertBeale]

Ah, fair enough. I did actually wonder when I wrote that whether I should add 'student area' but I was sufficiently confident that it had a denser population of students and colleges than you find in - well, quite a lot of London, really

I also get the impression from discussions with some acquaintances that much of central London - not just the TCR area - has a much higher population of residents than most people would suspect (since often you have buildings that are shops or businesses on the first floor, so casual visitors wouldn't realise that it's actually residences above that) - but I'm willing to be corrected if anyone knows better.

Yes - there are very many people living (trying to live) in central London; not all of it is yet sold off to developers for absentee overseas property investors! The historic old 7 acres of Bloomsbury Village, between the BM and the Hawksmoor church (where I live and where the BL was due to be plonked), was said, at the time of the struggle to stop it being flattened, to be one of the densest residential areas around the centre, with something like 1000 people living on the patch. And that was without any tower blocks, and with 2 chunks which were still (at that stage) un-built-on WW2 bomb-sites. And I know of other areas within walking distance which are likewise full of homes.

Though homes owned by the local authority have been thinned out by the "right to buy" brigade over recent years, leading to lots of them being lost to permanent housing completely, becoming investment properties / pied-a-terres / Airbnb's, etc. However that's another story, with very little connection - albeit not none! - to the TCR station stuff.

 

[The Ham]

A cynic might think that they were trying to attract national-level funding, rather than having TfL pay for it all.

Except that this is a TfL scheme thinly disguised as a national scheme. At least the first Crossrail meant some meaningful improvements to the infrastructure (including a large part of the GWML electrification). It's harder to make that case for Crossrail 2.

Crossrail 2 doesn't need to make improvements to the existing infrastructure to provide the 8tph out of Waterloo which or would create by removing a lot of metro services from Waterloo.

8tph would allow broadly 1 extra service to those end points which currently sees 2tph.

As a rough guide it's:
1 to Southampton
2 to Portsmouth
1 to Alton
1 to Yeovil
1 to Basingstoke
2 to Reading

There would be to be further works to facilitate such a timetable, however the point is that it would free up a lot of extra capacity for extra services which otherwise wouldn't be possible to run.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Crossrail 2 doesn't need to make improvements to the existing infrastructure to provide the 8tph out of Waterloo which or would create by removing a lot of metro services from Waterloo.

8tph would allow broadly 1 extra service to those end points which currently sees 2tph.

As a rough guide it's:
1 to Southampton
2 to Portsmouth
1 to Alton
1 to Yeovil
1 to Basingstoke
2 to Reading

Totally agree with the point about freeing up capacity generally. But... how can CR2 free up paths to Reading? The metro services it'll absorb don't use those tracks.

 

[JonathanH]

Totally agree with the point about freeing up capacity generally. But... how can CR2 free up paths to Reading? The metro services it'll absorb don't use those tracks.

Allows additional platform space at Waterloo for Reading trains by shifting services across the layout towards the existing suburban platforms.

 

[LLivery]

Won't it not also improve the West Anglian Main Line by 4 tracking and allowing more fast services?

 

[samuelmorris]

Ah, fair enough. I did actually wonder when I wrote that whether I should add 'student area' but I was sufficiently confident that it had a denser population of students and colleges than you find in - well, quite a lot of London, really

I also get the impression from discussions with some acquaintances that much of central London - not just the TCR area - has a much higher population of residents than most people would suspect (since often you have buildings that are shops or businesses on the first floor, so casual visitors wouldn't realise that it's actually residences above that) - but I'm willing to be corrected if anyone knows better.

Yeah this often catches me out - I do a lot of work for a client 5 minutes' walk from Holborn station and I walk past a large block of flats to get there with more residential accommodation nearby. That said, would they really not stand to benefit from TCR going Crossrail?

As for the SWML, yes it would benefit the metro services to some degree perhaps (except those who work nearby to Waterloo - unlike Crossrail 1 it wouldn't still serve all the same stops the absorbed lines do) but I think the extra capacity for the mainline is where the real benefit would be - in much the same way LNWR etc. services stand to benefit from HS2.

 

[kevin_roche]

Eh? Crossrail2 will have benefits far beyond London into the SWR network, because it will absorb many (most?) of the metro services that currently run via Wimbledon to Waterloo - which frees up badly needed paths for more faster trains from beyond Woking. Don't assume that, just because all the actual construction work will take place in London that that's the only place that has an interest in the scheme.

When they consult on Crossrail 2 they only ask people who wil directly benefit. Never ask those like me who would indirectly benefit. The same has happened with HS2 and led to a bigger opposition to it than would have been. The marketing people should get involved earlier and plans for extra services on the Wessex routes be made more prominant.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Yeah this often catches me out - I do a lot of work for a client 5 minutes' walk from Holborn station and I walk past a large block of flats to get there with more residential accommodation nearby. That said, would they really not stand to benefit from TCR going Crossrail?

I live between Holborn and TCR underground stations; the changes being made locally in connection with Crossrail's* planned(!) arrival at TCR - road changes, bus changes, taxi access changes, infrastructure developments, change of use, demolitions, etc - are making my life worse (on environmental, mobility, health, and economic grounds). My involvement with the local tenants' and residents' association - consisting of hundreds of households - and local businesses makes it clear that I'm not the only local who thinks that!

[*Edit: Crossrail 1, that is, let alone the further horrors of Crossrail 2...]

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I live between Holborn and TCR underground stations; the changes being made locally in connection with Crossrail's* planned(!) arrival at TCR - road changes, bus changes, taxi access changes, infrastructure developments, change of use, demolitions, etc - are making my life worse (on environmental, mobility, health, and economic grounds). My involvement with the local tenants' and residents' association - consisting of hundreds of households - and local businesses makes it clear that I'm not the only local who thinks that!

Are you talking about permanent changes, or temporary changes due to the fact that there's rather obviously been a big construction site around Tottenham Court Road for the last couple of years.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Are you talking about permanent changes, or temporary changes due to the fact that there's rather obviously been a big construction site around Tottenham Court Road for the last couple of years.

Yes - obviously there are temporary problems especially during the works, but I wasn't particularly meaning that; the permanent post-works changes are a problem too, on all the grounds mentioned.

 

[swt_passenger]

Allows additional platform space at Waterloo for Reading trains by shifting services across the layout towards the existing suburban platforms.

That’s not supported in any way by the route study. It refers only to additional paths/trains via Woking on the main fasts. There’s no CR2 impact on the maximum capacity on the Windsor side of the lines between Clapham Jn and Waterloo.

 

[47421]

Why not Harlow? CR2 is the sort of investment that the town desperately needs. Harlow Council have put in a bid to be the northern terminus.

Yes Harlow would seem to be a sensible northern terminus - only 5.5miles / 7mins running time from Brox, and council has proposed building 10,000 houses at Gilston which is just across from Harlow Town station and mostly walking distance to the station. Council did propose that CR2 came to Harlow but was rejected. As another poster pointed out CR2 will be all stations on the slow lines and Harlow will have an enhanced service on the fast lines so from Harlow would always be quicker to get StanExp or Camb service and change TottHale for CR2 or Vic line. Suppose that is right, although the time saving will be only 10 mins or so and for many people I imagine opportunity to get on, get a seat and stay there until get to central london would be very attractive

https://www.eastherts.gov.uk/gilston

 

[Meerkat]

From a very superficial look I get the impression that CR2 will take current passengers away from where they want to be and create a huge number of extra interchanges, or at least move large numbers of interchanges to existing stations that might not have the capacity?
For example a lot of people who walk from Liverpool Street now having to change, and moving lots of city bound commuters from the dedicated W&C to services already full of citybound commuters from other areas.

 

[VT 390]

From a very superficial look I get the impression that CR2 will take current passengers away from where they want to be and create a huge number of extra interchanges, or at least move large numbers of interchanges to existing stations that might not have the capacity?
For example a lot of people who walk from Liverpool Street now having to change, and moving lots of city bound commuters from the dedicated W&C to services already full of citybound commuters from other areas.

But is it also not possible that some people who currently have to change will no longer have to?

 

[si404]

I gather quite a lot of people currently change onto the Victoria line for the West End at Tottenham Hale, Seven Sisters, Finsbury Park, Vauxhall and Stockwell, hence CR2 seeking to intercept those passengers at Lea Valley origin stations including Tottenham Hale, Seven Sisters, Turnpike Lane/Wood Green/Ally Pally/New Southgate, Clapham Junction/Wimbledon/SW origin stations, and Balham/Tooting Broadway. Presumably the passengers from Lea Valley local stations wanting The City would change at Tottenham Hale onto the WAML trains.

 

[kevin_roche]

On the southern end the plan is to remove traffic from the northern line and Waterloo Station itself.

 

[swt_passenger]

On the southern end the plan is to remove traffic from the northern line and Waterloo Station itself.

...but then gradually replace it with passengers getting off all the additional “up to 8 tph” via Woking on the fast lines. After those first few years there’ll still be the same queues for the drain I reckon.

 

[si404]

On the southern end the plan is to remove traffic from the northern line and Waterloo Station itself.

That's the plan. Whether it happens as planned is a different question!

Arguably it would dump more passengers onto the Northern Line in South London - as it provides a decently fast route to The City from the SW (especially places that will only have CR2 trains). Waterloo stands a better chance of relief though (albeit relief to allow more passengers from Surrey, etc to use the station!)

 

[PTR 444]

Crossrail 2 doesn't need to make improvements to the existing infrastructure to provide the 8tph out of Waterloo which or would create by removing a lot of metro services from Waterloo.

8tph would allow broadly 1 extra service to those end points which currently sees 2tph.

As a rough guide it's:
1 to Southampton
2 to Portsmouth
1 to Alton
1 to Yeovil
1 to Basingstoke
2 to Reading

There would be to be further works to facilitate such a timetable, however the point is that it would free up a lot of extra capacity for extra services which otherwise wouldn't be possible to run.

Why not extend the Southampton one to Bournemouth or Weymouth?

 

[swt_passenger]

Why not extend the Southampton one to Bournemouth or Weymouth?

Where it ends up doesn’t really matter. It’s just 8 new paths via Woking, the rest is incidental detail that can be worked out later, within reason. But the further west you go, the more existing infrastructure constraints there are, so it might be possible that Weymouth stays 2 tph, but Poole and Southampton could also be separate 2 tph services. That could give 6 tph at Southampton rather than 3 as now. Then another Portsmouth via Eastleigh in the offpeak might mean a total of 8 tph at Winchester, etc etc. But as said it doesn’t necessarily need setting in concrete now.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

...but then gradually replace it with passengers getting off all the additional “up to 8 tph” via Woking on the fast lines. After those first few years there’ll still be the same queues for the drain I reckon.

Not entirely. The other impact from Crossrail2 will be that a lot of passengers on Waterloo trains who currently get off at Waterloo will choose to get off at Clapham Junction and take Crossrail2 from there - even if their train continues to run to Waterloo. So even you have the same number of trains arriving at Waterloo after CR2, most of them will be disgorging fewer passengers.

The effect will become even greater if/when Clapham Junction gets rebuilt so that all fast trains can stop there.

 

[Bald Rick]

From a very superficial look I get the impression that CR2 will take current passengers away from where they want to be and create a huge number of extra interchanges, or at least move large numbers of interchanges to existing stations that might not have the capacity?
For example a lot of people who walk from Liverpool Street now having to change, and moving lots of city bound commuters from the dedicated W&C to services already full of citybound commuters from other areas.

Which people from Liverpool St that will now have to change?

 

[Ianno87]

For example a lot of people who walk from Liverpool Street now having to change, and moving lots of city bound commuters from the dedicated W&C to services already full of citybound commuters from other areas.

I'd presume that passengers changing from CR2 to CR1 at Tottenham Court Rd to head towards the City are simply filling the space on CR1 used by commuters who from the west who have got off at Bond St or TCR - using the same bit of on-train capacity twice in one trip.

Plus the W&C needs relief - it's full and bursting in the peaks.

 

[PTR 444]

At the Southwestern end of the route, is there any specific reason why the Epsom, Chessington, Hampton Court and Shepperton branches have been chosen for CR2 to take over? The reason i’m asking this is because I think there would be merit in running to Woking and Guildford to connect with more SWML services. You can then have direct services from there to Welwyn, Harlow and even Stansted Airport.

 

[Bald Rick]

At the Southwestern end of the route, is there any specific reason why the Epsom, Chessington, Hampton Court and Shepperton branches have been chosen for CR2 to take over? The reason i’m asking this is because I think there would be merit in running to Woking and Guildford to connect with more SWML services. You can then have direct services from there to Welwyn, Harlow and even Stansted Airport.

I’d have thought it was because they are short, relatively self contained, largely in London, and in areas much more likely to see significant housing development (being in London).

Not sure how you’d get a direct service to Welwyn mind; and getting to Stansted means removing some Stansted express sevrvices which wouldn’t not be popular!

 

[Railwaysceptic]

I gather quite a lot of people currently change onto the Victoria line for the West End at Tottenham Hale, Seven Sisters, Finsbury Park, Vauxhall and Stockwell . . .

They certainly do! And, to a smaller extent, at Blackhorse Road Station too. Also do not forget or underestimate Highbury & Islington, one of London Overground's busiest stations. All those people: most of them do not come off the streets; they come off the Victoria Line!

 

[si404]

They certainly do! And, to a smaller extent, at Blackhorse Road Station too.

And Seven Sisters CR2 station provides a Goblin interchange at South Tottenham, relieving Blackhorse Road.

Also do not forget or underestimate Highbury & Islington, one of London Overground's busiest stations. All those people: most of them do not come off the streets; they come off the Victoria Line!

This one I did forget: Hackney (which also gives Chingford branch access onto CR2) and Dalston provide the NLL and ELL interchanges with CR2, relieving Highbury & Islington.

Relieve of the Victoria line (and to a lesser extent the Piccadilly, but that's getting a ~50% boost with new trains and higher frequencies before CR2, so needs it less) in N London is very well catered for under the plans - an alternative option via CR2 for every route that feeds into the Victoria line, except maybe the GN&C via Hertford (if Wood Green happens, rather than Ally Pally and Turnpike Lane). It won't have no one changing onto the Victoria, and some routes will only have a small number switching from the Vic to CR2, but it gives an alternative to the Victoria line, which will have a huge effect on that line, which is now completely and utterly maxed out - you might eke out a little bit more with Space-Train-esque trains, but not much.

Less so the Northern and Victoria lines in south London - Vauxhall is relieved by Clapham Junction, Stockwell and the Northern line by Tooting Bdwy/Balham (supposedly) and you might get people heading to Wimbledon rather than South Wimbledon, but that's about it.

 

[hwl]

And Seven Sisters CR2 station provides a Goblin interchange at South Tottenham, relieving Blackhorse Road. This one I did forget: Hackney (which also gives Chingford branch access onto CR2) and Dalston provide the NLL and ELL interchanges with CR2, relieving Highbury & Islington.

Relieve of the Victoria line (and to a lesser extent the Piccadilly, but that's getting a ~50% boost with new trains and higher frequencies before CR2, so needs it less) in N London is very well catered for under the plans - an alternative option via CR2 for every route that feeds into the Victoria line, except maybe the GN&C via Hertford (if Wood Green happens, rather than Ally Pally and Turnpike Lane). It won't have no one changing onto the Victoria, and some routes will only have a small number switching from the Vic to CR2, but it gives an alternative to the Victoria line, which will have a huge effect on that line, which is now completely and utterly maxed out - you might eke out a little bit more with Space-Train-esque trains, but not much.

Less so the Northern and Victoria lines in south London - Vauxhall is relieved by Clapham Junction, Stockwell and the Northern line by Tooting Bdwy/Balham (supposedly) and you might get people heading to Wimbledon rather than South Wimbledon, but that's about it.

In south London terms the busiest bit of the Northern Line (south of the river) is Balham - Stockwell where it then empties out substantially onto the Victoria line hence encouraging those users on to CR2 will make major difference in term of relief. (Passengers at the Clapham Station struggle to board)
It is also worth remembering that Tooting Broadway has roughly the same passenger numbers as Fenchurch Street so getting a good number of them straight on to CR2 would provide major relief to the Northern and Victoria lines. Tooting Broadway is a substantial bus heading destination from 3 directions.

 

[kevin_roche]

One of the other things that needs to be considered is the plan to create many new homes at Meridian Water. That will be limited without CR2.

 

[hwl]

From a very superficial look I get the impression that CR2 will take current passengers away from where they want to be and create a huge number of extra interchanges, or at least move large numbers of interchanges to existing stations that might not have the capacity?
For example a lot of people who walk from Liverpool Street now having to change, and moving lots of city bound commuters from the dedicated W&C to services already full of citybound commuters from other areas.

I'd argue that it will take many away who have to change to get to where they want to currently and substantially speed up their journeys. Very few stations will be CR2 only (most will be mixed on the SW end) and those that do will currently have fairly poor service (Chessington branch and WAML stoppers) so a good overall compromise...