Crossrail opening delayed (opening date not yet known)

[TrafficEng]

TfL could build stuff aka the worlds first ATO system on the Victoria line 53 years ago where has it all gone wrong?

Part of the answer to that is TfL weren't around 53 years ago and didn't build the Victoria line. The organisation then responsible (for London Underground) was structurally very different to TfL.

 

[Ianno87]

Part of the answer to that is TfL weren't around 53 years ago and didn't build the Victoria line. The organisation then responsible (for London Underground) was structurally very different to TfL.

And the Vic Line had a huge Value Engineering crisis in the late stages of design....hence the very under-sized, single-entrance stations originally built.

 

[TrafficEng]

Couldn't agree more - it seems that this country couldn't build a sandcastle on time.

There are countless projects completed daily on time and on budget. But because they are on time and on budget they don't make the headlines and nobody is interested in them.

The A14 Huntingdon bypass was recently opened a whole year earlier than originally planned (allegedly). And would have been opened a lot sooner if the politicians hadn't wasted years trying to make it into a complexly funded toll road.

At the other end of the scale, the 18 month build of a new block of flats in my street was completed on time and handed over to the LA on the very day the contract stated.

 

[TrafficEng]

And the Vic Line had a huge Value Engineering crisis in the late stages of design....hence the very under-sized, single-entrance stations originally built.

Not to mention the chopping and changing during the design process (e.g. Walthamstow Wood Street being chopped) and the original opening only covering the section from Walthamstow Central to Highbury and Islington.

Meeting a deadline is easy if you descope a project on the go.

 

[Malcolmffc]

Check out London reconnections numerous crossrail articles over the years...

LR didn’t foresee the delays though - in the summer of 2018 they published an article about Crossrail that includes the subheading “The good news? There is no bad news”

https://www.londonreconnections.com/2018/crossrail-timetable-for-success/

Sufficient information is now available, unofficially, so that we can be fairly sure of the exact service pattern now proposed for Crossrail in December 2019. Furthermore, we can have a good guess at how it may develop in the coming years. The good news is that the service pattern is better than we were generally led to expect. The bad news is that… well… incredibly, for once, there doesn’t seem to be any bad news.

GETTING IT RIGHT, EARLY
In a sane world, any plan for a significant new timetable for a complex railway system is in the detailed planning stage well over a year before its introduction. If, for one group of services, a clockface interval is required then that really needs to be in place first ...

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Part of the answer to that is TfL weren't around 53 years ago and didn't build the Victoria line. The organisation then responsible (for London Underground) was structurally very different to TfL.

Clearly fit for purpose then despite being an organisation with 50 years less experience than todays one

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Not to mention the chopping and changing during the design process (e.g. Walthamstow Wood Street being chopped) and the original opening only covering the section from Walthamstow Central to Highbury and Islington.

Meeting a deadline is easy if you descope a project on the go.

It wasn't three years late and it still set the standard that quite frankly only the recent stock and signalling renewal usurped.

 

[Busaholic]

We delivered the Olympic Games on time and to budget so it can be done.

To which budget do you refer? The one where VAT had been accidentally left off, for instance? The games exceeded the original budget by a mere £6 billion or so, chickenfeed in HS2 terms, and maybe in Crossrail too come the eventual day it opens.

 

[Busaholic]

Not to mention the chopping and changing during the design process (e.g. Walthamstow Wood Street being chopped) and the original opening only covering the section from Walthamstow Central to Highbury and Islington.

Meeting a deadline is easy if you descope a project on the go.

But the rest of the line to Victoria was opened in two stages within a few months, with no significant problems whatever.

 

[matt_world2004]

LR didn’t foresee the delays though - in the summer of 2018 they published an article about Crossrail that includes the subheading “The good news? There is no bad news”

https://www.londonreconnections.com/2018/crossrail-timetable-for-success/

That article only covered the timetable and the implementation of the timetable not the construction project

 

[Hadders]

Bear in mind also that the signalling on the Victoria Line didn't need to integrate with legacy systems at either end to allow through running.

 

[Southernrover]

They'd better get a move on or the person it's named after might not be around to open it!

 

[Bantamzen]

They'd better get a move on or the person it's named after might not be around to open it!

A certain Mr Marshall has already come up with an alternative name on his YouTube channel, I'm sure he'd be more than happy to work with TfL in rebranding should this eventuality come to pass....

 

[Meerkat]

To which budget do you refer? The one where VAT had been accidentally left off, for instance? The games exceeded the original budget by a mere £6 billion or so, chickenfeed in HS2 terms, and maybe in Crossrail too come the eventual day it opens.

By “original budget” do you mean they one the bid won with? I get the impression that you basically have to tell massive porkies to win the games and no one really expects it to be true.
It was all ready on time. The security was an issue but the back up plan worked splendidly. The legacy is fantastic by Olympic standards - village is housing, all permanent facilities used, and sensible use of temporary stuff.

 

[samuelmorris]

By “original budget” do you mean they one the bid won with? I get the impression that you basically have to tell massive porkies to win the games and no one really expects it to be true.
It was all ready on time. The security was an issue but the back up plan worked splendidly. The legacy is fantastic by Olympic standards - village is housing, all permanent facilities used, and sensible use of temporary stuff.

The Olympics in general was definitely a success story. There were some issues of course but on the whole every organisation put in a lot of effort and generally got stuff done. The UK's railways unfortunately have a reputation for quite the opposite.

 

[reddragon]

Back to what I said before the delays were announced. The stations were fitted out with sub-standard M&E that needs ripping out & replacing with Canary Wharf being the most sub-standard of all.

 

[Snow1964]

With all these delays it would probably have made sense to wire the short gap at Acton
Could at least then drive the trains between the West and East operating sections for maintenance, but maybe continuing haulage is cheaper (if more polluting)

Probably not much longer than the bit that was done for Acton diveunder

 

[Taunton]

From here at Canary Wharf the further delay is infuriating, and still nobody seems to have a worthwhile plan that can be published and will be stuck to.

Canary Wharf Crossrail station (TfL bit) just seems to have been left as it was in Autumn 2018. Likewise Custom House, which was strewn with scaffolding at that time supposedly a few months before opening. Guess what, now in 2020 it's still strewn with the same scaffolding, blow all has been done there since. it's as if the whole project has gone bankrupt. Do Sadiq Khan or Mike Brown ever come round, preferably without the full entourage shielding them, and just compare what is being done/not done with their "Emperor has no clothes" reports that get put up to their cosy offices?

I cannot believe the bit about Canary Wharf electrics. That station work was done years ago. Somebody from TfL/Crossrail would have supervised it all and somebody from there would have signed it off as complete and to a spec that the railway wrote. Then there were multiple layers of well-paid consultants who would have overseen all that - supposedly. Ripping it all out and putting it back again must make the M&E subcontractors think all their Christmases have come at once. Canary Wharf Contractors are not novices in construction, they know exactly how to do what is required and asked for. If they had asked to manage the whole project it would be open by now.

 

[hwl]

From here at Canary Wharf the further delay is infuriating, and still nobody seems to have a worthwhile plan that can be published and will be stuck to.

Canary Wharf Crossrail station (TfL bit) just seems to have been left as it was in Autumn 2018. Likewise Custom House, which was strewn with scaffolding at that time supposedly a few months before opening. Guess what, now in 2020 it's still strewn with the same scaffolding, blow all has been done there since. it's as if the whole project has gone bankrupt. Do Sadiq Khan or Mike Brown ever come round, preferably without the full entourage shielding them, and just compare what is being done/not done with their "Emperor has no clothes" reports that get put up to their cosy offices?

I cannot believe the bit about Canary Wharf electrics. That station work was done years ago. Somebody from TfL/Crossrail would have supervised it all and somebody from there would have signed it off as complete and to a spec that the railway wrote. Then there were multiple layers of well-paid consultants who would have overseen all that - supposedly. Ripping it all out and putting it back again must make the M&E subcontractors think all their Christmases have come at once. Canary Wharf Contractors are not novices in construction, they know exactly how to do what is required and asked for. If they had asked to manage the whole project it would be open by now.

The problems is that Canary Wharf Group wanted to get on and build the station before the Crossrail station spec for M+E was finished (so they could have their big shiny retail space open ASAP) - the station was complete before the spec. CWG also had no clue about plenty of TfL or general rail requirements. e.g. they bought cheap spec. escalators not heavy duty Tfl spec. ones

 

[NickBucks]

Slightly off topic I know but I guess these delays and the cost overruns will be the final nail in the coffin for Crossrail 2.

 

[reddragon]

The problems is that Canary Wharf Group wanted to get on and build the station before the Crossrail station spec for M+E was finished (so they could have their big shiny retail space open ASAP) - the station was complete before the spec. CWG also had no clue about plenty of TfL or general rail requirements. e.g. they bought cheap spec. escalators not heavy duty Tfl spec. ones

Yeah, when they tested the emergency stop button on one escalator, it cut the power to all 3 banks of them! Imagine that happening at rush hour!

 

[TrafficEng]

Slightly off topic I know but I guess these delays and the cost overruns will be the final nail in the coffin for Crossrail 2.

No. At most it will mean a delay.

Meanwhile, when HS2 opens before CR2 is built, everyone will be saying "why don't they plan things better".

 

[reddragon]

No. At most it will mean a delay.

Meanwhile, when HS2 opens before CR2 is built, everyone will be saying "why don't they plan things better".

Those who built Crossrail have moved to HS2 and will move onto the next project afterwards. There are limited resources.

 

[mrmartin]

The problems is that Canary Wharf Group wanted to get on and build the station before the Crossrail station spec for M+E was finished (so they could have their big shiny retail space open ASAP) - the station was complete before the spec. CWG also had no clue about plenty of TfL or general rail requirements. e.g. they bought cheap spec. escalators not heavy duty Tfl spec. ones

Sorry, but how is that even possible to do? How did Crossrail allow them to build without providing the correct spec?

Sounds like complete incompetence on the part of Crossrail to allow that to happen. Surely they could have completed the shell of the station then finished it when the spec was ready, working on the retail space?

 

[Taunton]

The problems is that Canary Wharf Group wanted to get on and build the station before the Crossrail station spec for M+E was finished (so they could have their big shiny retail space open ASAP) - the station was complete before the spec. CWG also had no clue about plenty of TfL or general rail requirements. e.g. they bought cheap spec. escalators not heavy duty Tfl spec. ones

Come on, that just doesn't happen. It's Crossrail's station and they say what is needed. Canary Wharf didn't conceal from Crossrail what escalators they were ordering. If Crossrail didn't know how to manage a joint development partner, that's a different matter.

 

[reddragon]

None of these problems were helped by the fact that TfL were undergoing a massive reorganization / transformation of its structure including the disposal of the very experts who could have saved this embarrassment.

I understand that the architect of this disaster has been releived of his job as so many key people left that they are currently unable to recover the situation easily.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Bear in mind also that the signalling on the Victoria Line didn't need to integrate with legacy systems at either end to allow through running.

Running Abbey Wood to Paddington is self contained within Crossrail signalling control system so they could have got the trains running prove the base software and then in parallel dealt with the interfaces. I reiterate this whole thing is being vastly more difficult that it should be by on overly complicated requirements with a resulting software production that has clearly got millions of permutations that need to be tested and proven that theres no 737MAX style software glitches.

 

[hwl]

Sorry, but how is that even possible to do? How did Crossrail allow them to build without providing the correct spec?

Sounds like complete incompetence on the part of Crossrail to allow that to happen. Surely they could have completed the shell of the station then finished it when the spec was ready, working on the retail space?

Because CWG were building the station as part of their Crossrail funding commitment - hence very incentive to keep cost to at or agreed level.
CWG wanted to build the station several years ahead of schedule -hence several year ahead of CR having a M+E station spec.

 

[hwl]

Running Abbey Wood to Paddington is self contained within Crossrail signalling control system so they could have got the trains running prove the base software and then in parallel dealt with the interfaces. I reiterate this whole thing is being vastly more difficult that it should be by on overly complicated requirements with a resulting software production that has clearly got millions of permutations that need to be tested and proven that theres no 737MAX style software glitches.

That assumes everything in the tunnels is in fit state to allow train testing! A big assumption.

 

[mrmartin]

Because CWG were building the station as part of their Crossrail funding commitment - hence very incentive to keep cost to at or agreed level.
CWG wanted to build the station several years ahead of schedule -hence several year ahead of CR having a M+E station spec.

Yes, that's fine. I understand that. But surely Crossrail should be signing off the spec? It's hardly like they pointed at the hole in the ground and Crossrail just said 'put whatever you want in there', is it?

If it was completed ahead of rest of the schedule, argubly more reason to keep a very close eye on it instead of being stretched over fit out of a dozenish stations!