Crossrail opening delayed (opening date not yet known)

[Nicholas Lewis]

Mark Wild was at the TfL transport committee yesterday and says trial running is projected to commence in the Jul-Sept window in 2020 and is expected to need 9-12 months to complete so that's potentially further delay to central section passenger service and knock on to later stages potentially.

https://www.london.gov.uk/transport-committee-2019-12-17

Watching him i'd say hes being cautionary and explaining why but also he does dangle the potential to being able accelerate this time if the software testing goes well in the new year so maybe by Easter 2020 we will have a clearer view.

It still remains pretty clear that the previous Crossrail executive team massively misinformed TfL and the the independent project assessor also failed to provide adequate oversight yet neither have taken any financial penalties.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Yeah they do, the linespeed is 90mph on the reliefs, plus they can reach that speed with the fast acceleration and largeish gaps between stations
The question is, how numb was your arse after an hour on those seats?

My rear end is becoming desensitized by regular use of new railway stock, the Thameslink trains in particular. I do however agree completely with those who think it's a disgrace that such uncomfortable seats were accepted by TOCs and the DfT.

 

[cactustwirly]

My rear end is becoming desensitized by regular use of new railway stock, the Thameslink trains in particular. I do however agree completely with those who think it's a disgrace that such uncomfortable seats were accepted by TOCs and the DfT.

Actually I find the seats in the 700s pretty decent, it's just how squashed they are that is the problem.
I actually wish that the 345s had a fit out similar to the 717s, with overhead luggage racks and proper 2+2 seats

 

[matacaster]

Actually I find the seats in the 700s pretty decent, it's just how squashed they are that is the problem.
I actually wish that the 345s had a fit out similar to the 717s, with overhead luggage racks and proper 2+2 seats

You should try the Northern 195 seats, wooden ones would be softer.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Even further delay now expecting Autumn 2021 for central section May 22 to Shenfield and Dec 22 to Heathrow Airport as per questions to TfL and £3.4Bn overspent.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/crossrail-delay-transport-for-london-mike-brown-a4327371.html

As Mike is headed for the exit door shortly he can be the bearer of bad news! Presumably now indicates a window for Liv St remodelling but seems the 315's will have a while yet unless they bite the bullet now and reform enough 345's into 7 cars.

 

[samuelmorris]

Even further delay now expecting Autumn 2021 for central section May 22 to Shenfield and Dec 22 to Heathrow Airport as per questions to TfL and £3.4Bn overspent.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/crossrail-delay-transport-for-london-mike-brown-a4327371.html

As Mike is headed for the exit door shortly he can be the bearer of bad news! Presumably now indicates a window for Liv St remodelling but seems the 315's will have a while yet unless they bite the bullet now and reform enough 345's into 7 cars.

Seems a bit more solid, everything exactly as it was, but +3 years. I did think based on what lack of progress we'd seen so far Q1 2021 seemed too optimistic.

 

[hwl]

Seems a bit more solid, everything exactly as it was, but +3 years. I did think based on what lack of progress we'd seen so far Q1 2021 seemed too optimistic.

More believable given Mark's pre Xmas comments e.g. testing to start late by 4-6 months and last 5-6months longer than previously thought...

 

[CapitalStar378]

I realise there's a lot of testing to do but nearly 2 years until it's open and the thing's built (barring Bond St etc), trains sat in OOC, hard to fathom.

 

[samuelmorris]

I realise there's a lot of testing to do but nearly 2 years until it's open and the thing's built (barring Bond St etc), trains sat in OOC, hard to fathom.

Take a look at other much more simple railway projects, such as new stations on existing lines, or new rolling stock fleet deployments and it's all very proportionate. A lot of testing for Crossrail is sequential by its nature - Autumn 2021 (which, let's face it, most likely means the early December timetable change) gives less than 2 years to complete it all, which means getting the trains to actually work properly, carry out the relevant testing scaling all the way up to a full service pattern, get all the stations finished (or with Bond Street at least evacuable), then spend a couple of months' dress rehearsal with staff. Looking at what state things are currently in, it's not actually an inordinate amount of time.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I realise there's a lot of testing to do but nearly 2 years until it's open and the thing's built (barring Bond St etc), trains sat in OOC, hard to fathom.

Its unfathomable and its staggering that no politician or public body is challenging (other than this forum!) what is happening over this period of time. Whatever was specified appears to have manifested itself in a system that so complicated that it will take another two years to just get it running in even in the self contained central section. Somebody needs to take a step back and really understand how Crossrail got this SO wrong as well as clawing back all those ill gotten bonuses the previous regime awarded themselves

 

[Mag_seven]

Its unfathomable and its staggering that no politician or public body is challenging (other than this forum!) what is happening over this period of time. Whatever was specified appears to have manifested itself in a system that so complicated that it will take another two years to just get it running in even in the self contained central section. Somebody needs to take a step back and really understand how Crossrail got this SO wrong as well as clawing back all those ill gotten bonuses the previous regime awarded themselves

Couldn't agree more - it seems that this country couldn't build a sandcastle on time. This does not bode well for HS2.

 

[samuelmorris]

Couldn't agree more - it seems that this country couldn't build a sandcastle on time. This does not bode well for HS2.

It doesn't, but Crossrail is at least safe in so much as it will eventually happen - part of the delay that affects HS2 will be political, simply over whether it should happen and whether certain parts of it should happen.

 

[quantinghome]

Couldn't agree more - it seems that this country couldn't build a sandcastle on time. This does not bode well for HS2.

The issues afflicting Crossrail are largely avoided with HS2, which has (rather obviously) more in common with HS1 which was built on time and to budget. No deep tunnelled stations on HS2 (...maybe Mamchester airport?). Simple transitions to the existing network (like HS1), no massively complicated signalling compatibility problems. Crossrail has more in common with the Jubilee line extension which also went massively overbudget due to M&E and signalling issues.

 

[Carlisle]

Take a look at other much more simple railway projects, such as new stations on existing lines, or new rolling stock fleet deployments and it's all very proportionate.

That’d be understandable if the class 345s were only just now leaving the factory, but they’ve been running in service for around 2 years already

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Couldn't agree more - it seems that this country couldn't build a sandcastle on time. This does not bode well for HS2.

TfL could build stuff aka the worlds first ATO system on the Victoria line 53 years ago where has it all gone wrong? Everything is becoming unnecessarily over complicated partly in the the name of safety but also because computer systems make it too easy to over complicate things with cheap hardware but unknown costs in time and money on software.

 

[Horizon22]

Its unfathomable and its staggering that no politician or public body is challenging (other than this forum!) what is happening over this period of time.

Actually several have in the London Assembly; it's partly why we're getting any updates at all.

 

[Busaholic]

TfL could build stuff aka the worlds first ATO system on the Victoria line 53 years ago where has it all gone wrong? Everything is becoming unnecessarily over complicated partly in the the name of safety but also because computer systems make it too easy to over complicate things with cheap hardware but unknown costs in time and money on software.

Precisely.

 

[hwl]

The issues afflicting Crossrail are largely avoided with HS2, which has (rather obviously) more in common with HS1 which was built on time and to budget. No deep tunnelled stations on HS2 (...maybe Mamchester airport?). Simple transitions to the existing network (like HS1), no massively complicated signalling compatibility problems. Crossrail has more in common with the Jubilee line extension which also went massively overbudget due to M&E and signalling issues.

And the same original management team the magically got the Jubilee line working in time but with much lower functionality, needing to be resignalled with a decade and vastly over budget.
They didn't have clue about system integration first time round.

 

[hwl]

Actually several have in the London Assembly; it's partly why we're getting any updates at all.

And even worse for the Crossrail team one of assembly members is actually an engineer!

 

[hwl]

Its unfathomable and its staggering that no politician or public body is challenging (other than this forum!) what is happening over this period of time.

Check out London reconnections numerous crossrail articles over the years...

 

[Snow1964]

That’d be understandable if the class 345s were only just now leaving the factory, but they’ve been running in service for around 2 years already

Generally (with couple of exceptions) the civil engineering was on time. The track laying was also roughly on schedule

Why no one considered developing the software 2-3 years earlier is ultimately the cause. Virtually all they delays are tunnel wiring and software related. Seems to me they waited until building the trains before proper testing, should have mocked up the signalling and door interfaces on a little 15 inch gauge test track (like you get in some old public parks) so they had a working version to install when first train was built. What bright spark decided to wait until the trains were built then complete software development needs shooting

 

[matt_world2004]

It's a scandal they they were reporting everything would be on time upto the September before launch and then it being delayed three years.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Check out London reconnections numerous crossrail articles over the years...

HWL very good point i was a bit too hasty these people have very comprehensively and well observed this fiasco

 

[greyman42]

Couldn't agree more - it seems that this country couldn't build a sandcastle on time.

We delivered the Olympic Games on time and to budget so it can be done.

 

[hwl]

Generally (with couple of exceptions) the civil engineering was on time. The track laying was also roughly on schedule

Why no one considered developing the software 2-3 years earlier is ultimately the cause. Virtually all they delays are tunnel wiring and software related. Seems to me they waited until building the trains before proper testing, should have mocked up the signalling and door interfaces on a little 15 inch gauge test track (like you get in some old public parks) so they had a working version to install when first train was built. What bright spark decided to wait until the trains were built then complete software development needs shooting

They did mock up the signalling interfaces etc. at Siemens in Chippenham.

Some mayor civils delays and how they dealt with them (badly) are now coming out of the woodwork. e.g. Bond Street the original plan was to tunnel through first with the TBMs then construct the station box and do spoil extraction though the tunnels but then some decided to halt the TBMs under Hyde park for a while and put Bond Street a year behind and spoil extraction was on road like the rest. Then magically expect everything else to catch up by a year to open on time!

Major failure by civils background staff to understand what you need in place for systems integration and testing to be done.

The previously used Siemens signalling system was found to have safety critical issues in London and elsewhere (HK also delayed), it also need substantial extra functionality built (as does every TfL signalling system!) and it had never been used as on rolling stock with ETCS as the primary safety system before.

The Siemens losses on the contract will be huge.

The original leak feeders weren't leaky enough!

Bombardier first time building rolling stock with ETCS at the software core that need to perform at the very top or beyond of ETCSL2 capability and then with Trainguard as a subsidiary module in ETCS for the core.

 

[U-Bahnfreund]

It's a scandal they they were reporting everything would be on time upto the September before launch and then it being delayed three years.

Reminds me of a certain airport

 

[hwl]

Reminds me of a certain airport

That airport is in different league altogether looking like 8y4m minimum currently.

And they got down to less than a month pre-opening before some one informed the emperor that they needed a replacement wardrobe.

 

[corsaVXR]

At least with Crossrail no one is trying to fundamentally alter the laws of physics... unlike BER...

 

[JamesT]

We delivered the Olympic Games on time and to budget so it can be done.

Haha. The budget quadrupled from the original bid. I don’t know if everything that was included after the budget was redone was delivered, but it certainly wasn’t a perfect bit of planning.

 

[Chris M]

Haha. The budget quadrupled from the original bid. I don’t know if everything that was included after the budget was redone was delivered, but it certainly wasn’t a perfect bit of planning.

And it required the army to step in at the last minute to provide much of the security because the private sector contractors ballsed up the planning and the public sector oversight didn't appreciate this in time.
Not all of the legacy stuff that was promised has been delivered either.