Crossrail - Through Running confirmed for November

[317 forever]

Annoyingly, the Central Section is closed on Saturday 29th due to engineering works so will have to wait until the week after to go visit it.

I that sense a poor week for Bond Street to open.

October 29th had been my intended date to ride it. Due to the advance notice of it remaining closed that day and risk of strikes on other limited weekends off work, I rode it the Tuesday after the August Bank Holiday instead.

 

[345 050]

I didn't want to comment on this until I'd had a chance to go through the timetable in full. Having reviewed the timetable with through services I'm really quite concerned about the extended journey times between West and the Central Operating Section.

Looking at Eastbound services from Reading/Heathrow, the journey times are typically 14-18 minutes (Ealing Broadway (EAL) to Paddington (PAD)). Currently, this journey can be done in 7 minutes, although currently subject to minor holds waiting for a platform. They have made some effort to reduce journey times in the AM peak, so it's closer to 8-10 minutes between 8-9 AM.

Looking at Westbound services from Abbey Wood going towards Reading/Heathrow, the journey times from PAD to EAL are typically 9-14. Currently this journey can be as quick as 6.5 minutes. Again they have made some effort to reduce journey times in the PM peak from 1642-1918 when journey times are typically 8-10 minutes. The service finishes about an hour before the central line, and the services thin out a lot, the last 5 trains being 2238 (to Reading), 2246 (to Heathrow T4), 2308 (to Maidenhead), 2316 (to Heathrow T4) and 2338 (to Maidenhead).

There are a couple of additional services from PAD high level at the end of service: 2232 (to Heathrow T5), 2302 (to Heathrow T5), 2332 (to Hayes and Harlington).

Of note is that journey times between Paddington and Shenfield are close to the same as existing, apart from a couple of extended journey times in peak periods, so this should not be an issue.

I'm quite concerned about how much this temporary timetable will really upset commuters in the West. Yes, it will be a through service, but it's going to be a huge wait outside Paddington. Commuters from Ealing Broadway may as well stick with the Central line for the majority of journeys. And commuters from further out may also get the same, or slightly quicker journey by continuing to change at Ealing Broadway for the central line.

I haven't reviewed the Weekend timings, so I can't provide any comments.

However, the weekday timings look extremely disappointing for stations on the Western branches of the line. There was very little warning about this, I really think they need to warn people that is going to be pretty terrible for the first 7 months.

In terms of mitigation, hopefully they can hold in the platform at Ealing Broadway going Eastbound, rather than waiting at Westbourne Park sidings? Although obviously this would not work if there was another GWR service right behind. Going Westbound they won't be able to hold in the platform at Paddington, so I don't know what mitigation is possible here. I imagine some drivers will dawdle to try to avoid the huge wait? I really don't see how they are going to make this look good....

 

[rd749249]

I suspect that we will be asked to get to and wait on the eastbound at line speed rather than drive slowly to it. The company would get late penalties passed to it by GWR etc if we drove too slow and made their trains late.

Whilst you’re standing still on the eastbound, check out the rubbish around the driving cab areas of the turnbacks. It needs a clean-up, especially the bottles.

 

[Acton1991]

I didn't want to comment on this until I'd had a chance to go through the timetable in full. Having reviewed the timetable with through services I'm really quite concerned about the extended journey times between West and the Central Operating Section.

Looking at Eastbound services from Reading/Heathrow, the journey times are typically 14-18 minutes (Ealing Broadway (EAL) to Paddington (PAD)). Currently, this journey can be done in 7 minutes, although currently subject to minor holds waiting for a platform. They have made some effort to reduce journey times in the AM peak, so it's closer to 8-10 minutes between 8-9 AM.

Looking at Westbound services from Abbey Wood going towards Reading/Heathrow, the journey times from PAD to EAL are typically 9-14. Currently this journey can be as quick as 6.5 minutes. Again they have made some effort to reduce journey times in the PM peak from 1642-1918 when journey times are typically 8-10 minutes. The service finishes about an hour before the central line, and the services thin out a lot, the last 5 trains being 2238 (to Reading), 2246 (to Heathrow T4), 2308 (to Maidenhead), 2316 (to Heathrow T4) and 2338 (to Maidenhead).

There are a couple of additional services from PAD high level at the end of service: 2232 (to Heathrow T5), 2302 (to Heathrow T5), 2332 (to Hayes and Harlington).

Of note is that journey times between Paddington and Shenfield are close to the same as existing, apart from a couple of extended journey times in peak periods, so this should not be an issue.

I'm quite concerned about how much this temporary timetable will really upset commuters in the West. Yes, it will be a through service, but it's going to be a huge wait outside Paddington. Commuters from Ealing Broadway may as well stick with the Central line for the majority of journeys. And commuters from further out may also get the same, or slightly quicker journey by continuing to change at Ealing Broadway for the central line.

I haven't reviewed the Weekend timings, so I can't provide any comments.

However, the weekday timings look extremely disappointing for stations on the Western branches of the line. There was very little warning about this, I really think they need to warn people that is going to be pretty terrible for the first 7 months.

In terms of mitigation, hopefully they can hold in the platform at Ealing Broadway going Eastbound, rather than waiting at Westbourne Park sidings? Although obviously this would not work if there was another GWR service right behind. Going Westbound they won't be able to hold in the platform at Paddington, so I don't know what mitigation is possible here. I imagine some drivers will dawdle to try to avoid the huge wait? I really don't see how they are going to make this look good....

Totally agree with you. The western section has become a farce and there will be little point for many of us to change from the Central line in the near term.

 

[Kite159]

Totally agree with you. The western section has become a farce and there will be little point for many of us to change from the Central line in the near term.

Other than during the summer months when the Central line will be like an oven, compared to the Elizabeth line

 

[Horizon22]

I didn't want to comment on this until I'd had a chance to go through the timetable in full. Having reviewed the timetable with through services I'm really quite concerned about the extended journey times between West and the Central Operating Section.

Looking at Eastbound services from Reading/Heathrow, the journey times are typically 14-18 minutes (Ealing Broadway (EAL) to Paddington (PAD)). Currently, this journey can be done in 7 minutes, although currently subject to minor holds waiting for a platform. They have made some effort to reduce journey times in the AM peak, so it's closer to 8-10 minutes between 8-9 AM.

Looking at Westbound services from Abbey Wood going towards Reading/Heathrow, the journey times from PAD to EAL are typically 9-14. Currently this journey can be as quick as 6.5 minutes. Again they have made some effort to reduce journey times in the PM peak from 1642-1918 when journey times are typically 8-10 minutes. The service finishes about an hour before the central line, and the services thin out a lot, the last 5 trains being 2238 (to Reading), 2246 (to Heathrow T4), 2308 (to Maidenhead), 2316 (to Heathrow T4) and 2338 (to Maidenhead).

There are a couple of additional services from PAD high level at the end of service: 2232 (to Heathrow T5), 2302 (to Heathrow T5), 2332 (to Hayes and Harlington).

Of note is that journey times between Paddington and Shenfield are close to the same as existing, apart from a couple of extended journey times in peak periods, so this should not be an issue.

I'm quite concerned about how much this temporary timetable will really upset commuters in the West. Yes, it will be a through service, but it's going to be a huge wait outside Paddington. Commuters from Ealing Broadway may as well stick with the Central line for the majority of journeys. And commuters from further out may also get the same, or slightly quicker journey by continuing to change at Ealing Broadway for the central line.

I haven't reviewed the Weekend timings, so I can't provide any comments.

However, the weekday timings look extremely disappointing for stations on the Western branches of the line. There was very little warning about this, I really think they need to warn people that is going to be pretty terrible for the first 7 months.

In terms of mitigation, hopefully they can hold in the platform at Ealing Broadway going Eastbound, rather than waiting at Westbourne Park sidings? Although obviously this would not work if there was another GWR service right behind. Going Westbound they won't be able to hold in the platform at Paddington, so I don't know what mitigation is possible here. I imagine some drivers will dawdle to try to avoid the huge wait? I really don't see how they are going to make this look good....

Yes it will be up to 7 minutes wait outside Paddington although it is only on Reading services that it is this much. On the Eastern side, the timetable integrates much better because there's no conflict. To make it work as effectively without a full timetable re-write has basically meant this fudge of waiting outside the station for the right path and as you say has the 7 minutes maximum. It's trying to loop 2 separate timetables together but one part of it is rigid - I don't envy the planners trying to do that. The departure times at all the stations towards Paddington are the same as now. As for waiting at Ealing Broadway, that isn't how it's built as you'll have seen from the timings and indeed you've seen GWR services are running to the same timetable and wouldn't be happy with being held.

The last trains are the same as they are currently (albeit some from the high level station, same as at Liverpool St) and have been for some time. It really isn't a great situation, but the alternative would be no through running until May 2023, which isn't good either.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Oct 2022 ==

Totally agree with you. The western section has become a farce and there will be little point for many of us to change from the Central line in the near term.

It's 25-26 minutes to Tottenham Court Road from Ealing Broadway with a 5 minute wait at Westbourne Park. Pretty much identical timings to the Central line.

 

[Acton1991]

It's 25-26 minutes to Tottenham Court Road from Ealing Broadway with a 5 minute wait at Westbourne Park. Pretty much identical timings to the Central line.

But the EL should arguably be far quicker with a significantly less number of stops. Whist I think everyone on this forum appreciates the reasons for the fudged timetable, it doesn’t make it any more frustrating for customers who have waited years for through running

 

[345 050]

But the EL should arguably be far quicker with a significantly less number of stops. Whist I think everyone on this forum appreciates the reasons for the fudged timetable, it doesn’t make it any more frustrating for customers who have waited years for through running

Whilst the journey time may work out to be similar, I think Perceived journey time will be far higher on crossrail. I can't find the link now, but I'm sure there was some research on how time is valued (waiting at stop, in vehicle when moving, in vehicle when stopped at station, in vehicle when not at station, walking to station etc). At least on the Central line, you are moving pretty much the whole time. That 7 minutes is going to feel like an eternity!

I'm sure someone smarter than me has the facts about the value of time in different scenarios, sorry I can't find that info to hand.

 

[321over360]

It's 25-26 minutes to Tottenham Court Road from Ealing Broadway with a 5 minute wait at Westbourne Park. Pretty much identical timings to the Central line.

If the Central Line is doing the journey in the same time, and the exit time from the Central Line to street level is obviously faster given the EL is much deeper underground then the Central Line would still be the better option. I guess once the trains from Shenfield start going through to the west then the journey will get a bit faster than the Central Line but will it still be any quicker once at platform level and depending on how frequent the trains from EB on the EL to TCR run in comparison to the Central Line, obviously from Stations out East, the journey will be somewhat quicker than the Central Line due to fewer stops involved from Stratford to say TCR where you only have 3 intermediate stations on the EL compared to 7 on the Central Line

 

[Horizon22]

But the EL should arguably be far quicker with a significantly less number of stops. Whist I think everyone on this forum appreciates the reasons for the fudged timetable, it doesn’t make it any more frustrating for customers who have waited years for through running

You're right it probably should be, and I wasn't suggesting otherwise. If you're going to Liverpool St though, it is of course quicker. It is frustrating, but I suppose its good to improve understanding of why.

There are a handful of services waiting 7 minutes. I think the longest one from Heathrow is 5 minutes, and even then there's very few. The Reading / Maidenhead services do get hit the most.

 

[ijmad]

Four platforms at OOC seems like a lot of platforms for the Elizabeth Line.

I'm honestly surprised there aren't 3 or 4 platform stations elsewhere on the Elizabeth Line!

I guess most sites were constrained in size but compare to London Bridge, which was built with platform alternation for a pre-pandemic morning 28tph peak service into Charing X.

 

[Bald Rick]

but compare to London Bridge, which was built with platform alternation for a pre-pandemic morning 28tph peak service into Charing X.

The key number there being 28tph…

 

[Horizon22]

I'm honestly surprised there aren't 3 or 4 platform stations elsewhere on the Elizabeth Line!

I guess most sites were constrained in size but compare to London Bridge, which was built with platform alternation for a pre-pandemic morning 28tph peak service into Charing X.

Such as where? All the core stations that should get 24tph are through* stations, which can handle more capacity.

*Yes Paddington is a terminating platform, but that's only booked to be 16tph max and really the termination point is Westbourne Park.

 

[345 050]

You're right it probably should be, and I wasn't suggesting otherwise. If you're going to Liverpool St though, it is of course quicker. It is frustrating, but I suppose its good to improve understanding of why.

There are a handful of services waiting 7 minutes. I think the longest one from Heathrow is 5 minutes, and even then there's very few. The Reading / Maidenhead services do get hit the most.

Sorry but I disagree on the last point. Having been through the entire timetable, journey times are extended throughout the day, except for Eastbound in AM and Westbound in the PM. Whilst they don't necessarily have 7 minute scheduled at Westbourne Park sidings, the journey times are substantially extended, westbound, and especially eastbound. It's not right to suggest that it's a few 'bad apples' so to speak.

It's absolutely the opposite at the East portal. Services are almost all straight through, except for a select few in peak hours.

 

[Horizon22]

Sorry but I disagree on the last point. Having been through the entire timetable, journey times are extended throughout the day, except for Eastbound in AM and Westbound in the PM. Whilst they don't necessarily have 7 minute scheduled at Westbourne Park sidings, the journey times are substantially extended, westbound, and especially eastbound. It's not right to suggest that it's a few 'bad apples' so to speak.

It's absolutely the opposite at the East portal. Services are almost all straight through, except for a select few in peak hours.

The biggest delays are definitely on Reading / Maidenhead services. They do all get hit from the West (due to Westbourne Park), but not as badly.

The issue is the East portal has no conflicts so they can just run straight through; it's aligned to Whitechapel timings.

 

[345 050]

The biggest delays are definitely on Reading / Maidenhead services. They do all get hit from the West (due to Westbourne Park), but not as badly.

Yes, Reading and Maidenhead are hardest hit, those ex-GWR passengers are going to be flocking back to the GWR services to Paddington high level!

 

[Acton1991]

The biggest delays are definitely on Reading / Maidenhead services. They do all get hit from the West (due to Westbourne Park), but not as badly.

The issue is the East portal has no conflicts so they can just run straight through; it's aligned to Whitechapel timings.

Devils advocate but surely the ultimate aim will be to remove these conflicts in the years to come?

 

[swt_passenger]

Devils advocate but surely the ultimate aim will be to remove these conflicts in the years to come?

Surely the delays at Westbourne Park are expected to be removed in May 2023. Hasn’t it been mentioned a few times already in this thread, since being spotted back in August?

 

[Horizon22]

Yes, Reading and Maidenhead are hardest hit, those ex-GWR passengers are going to be flocking back to the GWR services to Paddington high level!

Well there won't be anything to flock too soon (certainly not peak time) for the vast majority, so best of luck!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Oct 2022 ==

Devils advocate but surely the ultimate aim will be to remove these conflicts in the years to come?

Doesn't need to be years - May 2023 like many (including myself) have already said.

 

[lawried123]

Sorry but I disagree on the last point. Having been through the entire timetable, journey times are extended throughout the day, except for Eastbound in AM and Westbound in the PM. Whilst they don't necessarily have 7 minute scheduled at Westbourne Park sidings, the journey times are substantially extended, westbound, and especially eastbound. It's not right to suggest that it's a few 'bad apples' so to speak.

It's absolutely the opposite at the East portal. Services are almost all straight through, except for a select few in peak hours.

And it's not just Elizabeth line trains that will have extended journey times, I've just noticed that some GWR trains will take longer to arrive Paddington. For example, my 1717 from Twyford will take 4 minutes longer between Ealing Broadway and Paddington than it does now. There are other similar examples in the off peak too.
Hopefully from next may that will all change.
And what surprises me is that for all the off peak the GWR trains will still be using platform 14. I had anticipated that with no Elizabeth line trains using the main line station for most of the day they would be able to use a more convenient platform rather than the long walk from platform 14.

Lawrie

 

[Kite159]

And it's not just Elizabeth line trains that will have extended journey times, I've just noticed that some GWR trains will take longer to arrive Paddington. For example, my 1717 from Twyford will take 4 minutes longer between Ealing Broadway and Paddington than it does now. There are other similar examples in the off peak too.
Hopefully from next may that will all change.
And what surprises me is that for all the off peak the GWR trains will still be using platform 14. I had anticipated that with no Elizabeth line trains using the main line station for most of the day they would be able to use a more convenient platform rather than the long walk from platform 14.

Lawrie

Maybe it makes sense to keep the GWR into platform 14 as it can only take 8 coaches, keeping the other platforms available just in case an Elizabeth Line train needs to divert into Paddington high level rather than going into the tunnel.

 

[JonathanH]

Maybe it makes sense to keep the GWR into platform 14 as it can only take 8 coaches, keeping the other platforms available just in case an Elizabeth Line train needs to divert into Paddington high level rather than going into the tunnel.

Or more likely a 9 / 10 car IET service needs to use platforms 11 and 12.

 

[Horizon22]

Or more likely a 9 / 10 car IET service needs to use platforms 11 and 12.

I think the Elizabeth line have still got a guaranteed platform (or two) at Paddington and Liverpool Street for contingency and a spare unit might be placed there. But yes P14 has limitations so might as well utilise that platform for services with guaranteed 8-cars (or less).

Even with GWRs and GAs timetables having more “room to breathe” an extra 2-3 platforms is probably ample.

 

[kevin_roche]

Or more likely a 9 / 10 car IET service needs to use platforms 11 and 12.

I think the plan was to have the Heathrow Express spend more time at Paddington rather than wait at Heathrow in the way it used to before the TfL rail service to Heathrow began. That way the number of Elizabeth Line trains at Heathrow can increase and HX passengers to Heathrow will usually find a comfortable train waiting for them.

 

[JonathanH]

I think the plan was to have the Heathrow Express spend more time at Paddington rather than wait at Heathrow in the way it used to before the TfL rail service to Heathrow began.

Yes, Heathrow Express back to alternating platforms 6 and 7 at Paddington means GWR need to use platforms 11 and 12 instead of these basically being Elizabeth Line platforms.

 

[Horizon22]

Yes, Heathrow Express back to alternating platforms 6 and 7 at Paddington means GWR need to use platforms 11 and 12 instead of these basically being Elizabeth Line platforms.

They’ve been back to alternating for several months at Paddington. One extra platform is the space required and two is “nice to have”. In the event of some major problem in the central section, then Paddington and Liverpool St will need to be available in a contingency basis for at least some of the tph.

 

[ijmad]

The key number there being 28tph…

Wasn't the Core specified for 30tph or am I imagining that?

Anyway I know it's not really directly comparable. I would guess the CBTC signalling can do a lot to control platform approach to avoid trains queueing and also the 345s have pretty decent acceleration compared to a lot of older stocks, I think?

 

[Bald Rick]

Wasn't the Core specified for 30tph or am I imagining that?

Anyway I know it's not really directly comparable. I would guess the CBTC signalling can do a lot to control platform approach to avoid trains queueing and also the 345s have pretty decent acceleration compared to a lot of older stocks, I think?

As above, it is specified for 24tph timetabled service, and 120second intervals for service recovery for a short time (but not an hour).

Sorry I was thinking of Thameslink When I wrote the above.

Some parts of the Crossrail core infrastructure are specified for 30tph, AIUI the limiting factor is the number of emergency escape locations which restricts how many trains can be in any one tunnel section between stations at any one time.

 

[stuu]

Wasn't the Core specified for 30tph or am I imagining that?

The core stations where designed to cope with the passenger numbers for a 30tph 11 car service

 

[321over360]

The core stations where designed to cope with the passenger numbers for a 30tph 11 car service

11 car service?