Crossrail timetable

[swt_passenger]

Most of these diagrams don't reflect the latest TfL proposal...

I think the post was really about the principle of how to display the network on a diagram, I don't think it will ever make it onto a tube map like that, but no reason it couldn't appear on separate posters.

I'm sure the March TfL proposals have already been discussed in another thread in the general discussions forum, but in hindsight they should probably have been put in this one for completeness, so it doesn't harm to mention it again...

Earlier thread is here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=142755

...the proposed service increases are brought up on page 2.

 

[Be3G]

I thought I read once that there were going to be a few peak extras making some of the branch connections (e.g. Shenfield to Heathrow) that aren't present in the main regular timetable. Am I just imagining that, or was that once a plan that's since been cancelled?

 

[swt_passenger]

I thought I read once that there were going to be a few peak extras making some of the branch connections (e.g. Shenfield to Heathrow) that aren't present in the main regular timetable. Am I just imagining that, or was that once a plan that's since been cancelled?

I think it was suggested in an article somewhere that would have to happen to balance the overall service frequencies when the transition to and from peak to off-peak occurred, but it might well have been overtaken by the latest plans to have higher off-peak frequencies, and more GW running.

 

[JW16]

Is there / will there be, any further public consultation on the proposed service frequency and timetable?

 

[hwl]

Is there / will there be, any further public consultation on the proposed service frequency and timetable?

You must be joking - there won't as so many potential variables are effectively fixed already or there is also a very obvious logical choice.

e.g. Canary Wharf effectively paid for direct Heathrow services and in the evening peak having the Shenfield starting at Paddington or not having Heathrow Passengers luggage means they will be slightly emptier helping keep dwell times low as there will be less passenger churn at stations in the tunnelled section.

 

[hwl]

I think it was suggested in an article somewhere that would have to happen to balance the overall service frequencies when the transition to and from peak to off-peak occurred, but it might well have been overtaken by the latest plans to have higher off-peak frequencies, and more GW running.

Exactly, with the latest plans it doesn't need to happen any more.

 

[matt_world2004]

No way are Heathrow Express going to achieve a 15 minute running time if they are diverted onto the reliefs. a 22 minute running time is a struggle with the freight on the line. On the subject of this , the punctuality and reliability on the relief GWR service is terrible, in part because of freight train movements. How are crossrail going to mitigate this . Acton diveunder appears to have had little effect.

 

[ijmad]

No way are Heathrow Express going to achieve a 15 minute running time if they are diverted onto the reliefs. a 22 minute running time is a struggle with the freight on the line. On the subject of this , the punctuality and reliability on the relief GWR service is terrible, in part because of freight train movements. How are crossrail going to mitigate this . Acton diveunder appears to have had little effect.

My understanding is that freight would be banned entirely from the relief lines, and confined to the main lines to mix in with long distance passenger trains. As you'd imagine the freight industry is a little worried.

 

[Ianno87]

My understanding is that freight would be banned entirely from the relief lines, and confined to the main lines to mix in with long distance passenger trains. As you'd imagine the freight industry is a little worried.

Not correct in the slightest. Freight will be very much remaining on the Relief Lines (it "only" has to blend in with 8-12tph Crossrail on a c. 3 minute headway), and Heathrow Express will be remaining on the Main Lines.

The article you link to is dated May *2005*, by the way, which was about the time of the very first (and very rough) iteration of the Crossrail timetable... :roll:

 

[Ianno87]

I think it was suggested in an article somewhere that would have to happen to balance the overall service frequencies when the transition to and from peak to off-peak occurred, but it might well have been overtaken by the latest plans to have higher off-peak frequencies, and more GW running.

Correct. As services transition in and out of the peak frequency (moving 3 minute interval to 2.5 minute interval in the central section), you naturally end up with some "odd" origin/destination pairings as a result, in order to keep each outer branch at an even headway (e.g. every 15 minutes into Heathrow)

 

[ijmad]

Not correct in the slightest. Freight will be very much remaining on the Relief Lines (it "only" has to blend in with 8-12tph Crossrail on a c. 3 minute headway), and Heathrow Express will be remaining on the Main Lines.

The article you link to is dated May *2005*, by the way, which was about the time of the very first (and very rough) iteration of the Crossrail timetable... :roll:

Fair enough. Thanks for correcting my understanding

 

[Be3G]

I think it was suggested in an article somewhere that would have to happen to balance the overall service frequencies when the transition to and from peak to off-peak occurred, but it might well have been overtaken by the latest plans to have higher off-peak frequencies, and more GW running.

I've found what I was thinking of, dated January this year: http://www.stationmasterapp.com/blog/category/crossrail

Problem is, I don't know what the source was for the creation of that diagram.

 

[swt_passenger]

I've found what I was thinking of, dated January this year: http://www.stationmasterapp.com/blog/category/crossrail

Problem is, I don't know what the source was for the creation of that diagram.

It was discussed earlier in this thread...

 

[Be3G]

Hah yes, so it was. But my point is that we still don't know the source of the peak extras that diagram mentions.

 

[swt_passenger]

Hah yes, so it was. But my point is that we still don't know the source of the peak extras that diagram mentions.

We do, they came from a TfL board paper issued last autumn. My post #29.

AIUI from the discussions since the hypothetical extras, such as Shenfield to Heathrow, disappeared prior to that.

 

[Be3G]

Yes sorry, it was the ‘hypothetical’ ones I was referring to. I am a bit groggy today so perhaps not being as coherent as I should be. :?

So, for the avoidance of any doubt, what I'm saying is this:

• I've seen the diagram I linked to earlier which someone has created that lists unusual peak extra branch line services;
• I think I've read something once which also mentioned such services;
• I would therefore be interested to know if these extra unusual peak services have ever been officially stated anywhere or are just conjecture (as the aforementioned diagram doen't imply the latter).

Perhaps when I'm feeling more awake I'll do some digging online to see if I can find anything!

 

[Taunton]

Equal splits between the Shenfield and Abbey Wood lines are impractical in the peaks.

Eastbound in the morning peak, there will be far more demand on the Abbey Wood line to Canary Wharf than there will be eastwards to the Shenfield line. Likewise in the evening peak westbound, there will be far more demand from Canary Wharf etc than from Stratford and beyond, where I find nowadays even at 1730 I can have a triple seat to myself into Stratford.

At these times Canary Wharf will be generating its peak flow, while the Shenfield line is operating in the counter-peak direction.

 

[swt_passenger]

There was a track access option on NR's site that includes an all day timetable. That definitely included a number of odd origin destination pairs, but in the present context it is ancient history, probably about 10 years old.

It is available online here: http://archive.nr.co.uk/browse docu...ptions/crossrail/crossrail objective test.pdf

I'm confused because the diagram you are referring to above doesn't include any unusual origin-destination pairs, (such as Shenfield to Heathrow), unless you count the 2 tph Abbey Wood and West Drayton shown there that only runs in the peaks.

But it is all academic because since the 'third party' diagram was drawn up TfL have applied for an increase in services,
that has been discussed in the other thread here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=142755

 

[Ianno87]

Equal splits between the Shenfield and Abbey Wood lines are impractical in the peaks.

Eastbound in the morning peak, there will be far more demand on the Abbey Wood line to Canary Wharf than there will be eastwards to the Shenfield line. Likewise in the evening peak westbound, there will be far more demand from Canary Wharf etc than from Stratford and beyond, where I find nowadays even at 1730 I can have a triple seat to myself into Stratford.

At these times Canary Wharf will be generating its peak flow, while the Shenfield line is operating in the counter-peak direction.

Not quite that simple.

The Canary Wharf branch has relatively little stabling provision on it (a few sidings at Plumstead, and that's it).

So a decent amount of the evening peak service will have to start from the Shenfield branch in order to come out of the stabling sidings at Gidea Park or Shenfield, to then feed into the central section peak service.

Vice-versa for trains being put away at the end of the morning peak.

As well as Canary Wharf demand there'll also be a heck of a lot of current Central Line demand attracted onto Crossrail inwards of Stratford to fill up this branch as well (even if trains are fairly empty outwards of Stratford)

 

[Class 170101]

I have been told that demad out of Liverpool Street in the morning peak towards Shenfield is quite bouyant. From the timetable change in May its been noticeable that extra peak services run limited stop between Liverpool Street and Gidea Park. These were previously ECS moves.

 

[MML]

Crossrail website provides the following information and journey time calculator states it will take 39 minutes to travel from Farringdon to Heathrow T5.

Could someone confirm the 39 minutes direct through train service to Heathrow will not commence until December 2019 ? I must admit I had thought Elizabeth line trains to Heathrow would be running through the core by December 2018 ?

ELIZABETH LINE SERVICES FROM FARRINGDON
Farringdon station will open in December 2018 when services begin through central London. Trains will terminate at Paddington in the west and Abbey Wood in the east.

When the route fully opens in December 2019, a train every two and a half minutes at peak time will allow passengers to travel all the way through to Paddington, Heathrow or Reading in the west and Shenfield or Abbey Wood in the east.

 

[Ianno87]

Crossrail website provides the following information and journey time calculator states it will take 39 minutes to travel from Farringdon to Heathrow T5.

Could someone confirm the 39 minutes direct through train service to Heathrow will not commence until December 2019 ? I must admit I had thought Elizabeth line trains to Heathrow would be running through the core by December 2018 ?

ELIZABETH LINE SERVICES FROM FARRINGDON
Farringdon station will open in December 2018 when services begin through central London. Trains will terminate at Paddington in the west and Abbey Wood in the east.

When the route fully opens in December 2019, a train every two and a half minutes at peak time will allow passengers to travel all the way through to Paddington, Heathrow or Reading in the west and Shenfield or Abbey Wood in the east.

Correct. Before 2019, Elizabeth Line trains will operate in two bits:
-Heathrow to Paddington (High Level), introduced this May at 4tph replacing the current Connect service
-Paddington (Low Level) to Abbey Wood/Shenfield from Dec 2018/May 2019 respectively.

Dec 2019 is the final plugging everything together and incorporation if Maidenhead/Reading.

 

[ijmad]

Correct. Before 2019, Elizabeth Line trains will operate in two bits:
-Heathrow to Paddington (High Level), introduced this May at 4tph replacing the current Connect service
-Paddington (Low Level) to Abbey Wood/Shenfield from Dec 2018/May 2019 respectively.

Dec 2019 is the final plugging everything together and incorporation if Maidenhead/Reading.

I wonder how many trains per hour the central section will be running between Dec 2018 and May 2019. If it's more than 12, I guess the Abbey Wood branch may well have a better service than the final pattern when the Shenfield branch opens!

 

[Ronnie268]

I think it's 15tph in the core, but I can't remember where I saw that. If so, presumably Abbey Wood will lose 3tph upon the transfer of Shenfield services to the core.

 

[Taunton]

Correct. Before 2019, Elizabeth Line trains will operate in two bits:
-Heathrow to Paddington (High Level), introduced this May at 4tph replacing the current Connect service
-Paddington (Low Level) to Abbey Wood/Shenfield from Dec 2018/May 2019 respectively.
Dec 2019 is the final plugging everything together and incorporation if Maidenhead/Reading.

It's disappointing that for a further 12 months the service will be broken into two at Paddington, quite widely separated; I presume the Core will operate into the new platforms beyond the west side of the station while the Heathrow Connect will operate from the old Suburban Station platforms on the east. It will presumably be an Out Of Station Interchange. The footbridge is going to take quite a hammering.

I am guessing that it is a signalling interface issue on the GW main line that prevents the two parts running together.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

By the time Crossrail opens to Reading surely the line will be electrified to Oxford? If so - I don’t see why they shouldn’t just split the London - Didcot stopper - let Crossrail use that up to Reading to enable 4tph and then rejoin the Didcot - Oxford shuttle with the remaining Reading - Didcot stretch, allowing a 2tph Electrostar to run Reading, Tilehurst, Pangbourne, Goring and Streatley, Cholsey, Didcot Parkway, Appleford, Culham, Radley, Oxford. You probably think the stations in red lose out but they don’t! The amount of grumbles I’ve heard about passengers sitting on that train all the way from Paddington is a large number and by changing at Didcot/Reading they would lessen journey times considerably. The stations in green benefit as they receive direct connections towards Reading.

If GWR are a pain and still haven’t electrified Oxford by then, perhaps use a turbo but extend to cover and dramatically improve the Banbury services to make a Banbury - Reading stopper.

 

[JonathanH]

By the time Crossrail opens to Reading surely the line will be electrified to Oxford? If so - I don’t see why they shouldn’t just split the London - Didcot stopper - let Crossrail use that up to Reading to enable 4tph and then rejoin the Didcot - Oxford shuttle with the remaining Reading - Didcot stretch, allowing a 2tph Electrostar to run Reading, Tilehurst, Pangbourne, Goring and Streatley, Cholsey, Didcot Parkway, Appleford, Culham, Radley, Oxford. You probably think the stations in red lose out but they don’t! The amount of grumbles I’ve heard about passengers sitting on that train all the way from Paddington is a large number and by changing at Didcot/Reading they would lessen journey times considerably. The stations in green benefit as they receive direct connections towards Reading.

If GWR are a pain and still haven’t electrified Oxford by then, perhaps use a turbo but extend to cover and dramatically improve the Banbury services to make a Banbury - Reading stopper.

If you look at the proposed timetables from January, in the evening peak, there are a number of services that run from Didcot all stations to Maidenhead and then join the fast line with another 387-formed service commencing at Maidenhead. This is probably a forerunner of what might happen once Crossrail is up and running.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Oh ok.

 

[swt_passenger]

It has already been confirmed by TfL that Crossrail will run 4 tph in the peaks to/from Reading. That already does remove the likelihood of continuing all the existing GWR (Oxford) > Didcot > Reading > Paddington services as well.

The subject of the Crossrail impact on GWR timetable has been well covered in these forums, just that it's spread across a few diverse areas such as 387 introduction, and GW electrification.

From January, and as a result of the lack of electrification, GWR are extending some of the residual Oxford <> Didcot DMU workings to/from Banbury. However, this is already covered in more appropriate threads.

Other more thorough discussions of Crossrail future timetables are:
From February:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/crossrail-west-of-paddington-usage-future-capacity.142755/
From July
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...2tph-to-heathrow-oyster-on-hex-agreed.149571/

 

[BluePenguin]

I think the post was really about the principle of how to display the network on a diagram, I don't think it will ever make it onto a tube map like that, but no reason it couldn't appear on separate posters.

I'm sure the March TfL proposals have already been discussed in another thread in the general discussions forum, but in hindsight they should probably have been put in this one for completeness, so it doesn't harm to mention it again...

Earlier thread is here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=142755

...the proposed service increases are brought up on page 2.

TfL? Tube map? I take it train tickets without a travel card wont be valid then. O well, I have completely lost interest in crossrail because of this plus the fact that no journey opportunities exist without changing.