Crowd Management at Liverpool Lime Street after Parade

[Pacef8]

Well said 8J

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

@8J's useful post contains two words that possibly get to the heart of the issue: "security contractors". I have no doubt these people were "following orders" and were not going to vary from them in any way for anyone. Now for one-off events like this I can understand NWR bringing in outside assistance but clearly the quality of on the day supervision of said personnel was wholly inadequate.

 

[bramling]

@8J's useful post contains two words that possibly get to the heart of the issue: "security contractors". I have no doubt these people were "following orders" and were not going to vary from them in any way for anyone. Now for one-off events like this I can understand NWR bringing in outside assistance but clearly the quality of on the day supervision of said personnel was wholly inadequate.

I agree this may very well be a large part of the problem. Network Rail’s staffing of its major stations has been appalling going back many years, so it’s no real surprise when this sort of thing happens.

 

[GordonT]

Could it be that Network Rail's structural immunity from complaints from passengers, even when they are fully responsible for a failure, is a contributory factor within their poor performance? Also do current financial arrangements mean that there is less incentive for TOC MDs to convey apoplexy in the direction of Network Rail when the latter screws up?

 

[sjm77]

Should heads roll? Absolutely they should! Northern's station team leader on duty that night was trying to communicate with NR and security staff on duty that trains were leaving half empty and requested that more passengers were let through. He was told in no uncertain terms to go away and not interfere with their operation.

There should be an inquiry in to events that unfolded on Monday 26/05/2025 with findings published.

The first thing to note was that reduced timetables were in operation due to engineering blockades at a number of locations.

Thank you for sharing. TPEx had reduced their Liverpool to Leeds service to just one an hour because (I presume) the diversion route through Wakefield Kirkgate could not take the the full TPEx 4 trains per hour that would normally travel via Dewsbury. I hope they realise that it was a mistake not to run a second hourly train from Liverpool to Manchester Victoria and perhaps onto Huddersfield from the get-go.

I have written to my MP and asked them to do all he can to ensure that some kind of enquiry does happens. It is good (or extremely bad) to hear from memebers such as yourself who were there inside the station, and who can confirm that what I thought was happening, was indeed happening.

 

[The exile]

Not at all. The authorities absolutely should be considering the ability of the area's infrastructure to cope with the demands placed on it by any and all large events.

Not merely considering but proving that adequate measures are in place (transport, sanitation etc) to cope with the numbers expected.

 

[Darandio]

That’s not the fault of the operators. The more i hear, the more it looks like both Liverpool FC and the council grossly underestimated numbers for the parade and the station and previous processes/staffing levels couldn’t cope with the volume of people all at once.

Liverpool FC are at fault for winning the title. Got it.

 

[WAB]

Could it be that Network Rail's structural immunity from complaints from passengers, even when they are fully responsible for a failure, is a contributory factor within their poor performance?

Yes. Network Rail is often hilariously disconnected from the end-customer.

@8J's useful post contains two words that possibly get to the heart of the issue: "security contractors". I have no doubt these people were "following orders" and were not going to vary from them in any way for anyone. Now for one-off events like this I can understand NWR bringing in outside assistance but clearly the quality of on the day supervision of said personnel was wholly inadequate.

With personnel like these, you generally need to have them closely supervised by railway staff; otherwise, everything goes wrong.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Liverpool FC are at fault for winning the title. Got it.

Literally nobody said that.

 

[TUC]

The underlying question in this is, yet again, what is the railway so poor at communication?

 

[trainophile]

I’m assuming the North Western, Wetherspoons pub in Lime Street station, was closed for all or most of Monday? Or is there a second entrance somewhere off the street?

 

[Djgr]

I’m assuming the North Western, Wetherspoons pub in Lime Street station, was closed for all or most of Monday? Or is there a second entrance somewhere off the street?

As well as the entrance from Lime Street station there are two more I think

 

[trainophile]

As well as the entrance from Lime Street station there are two more I think

Ah, I didn’t know that. So it was probably business as usual. With toilets!

 

[Misici]

I’m assuming the North Western, Wetherspoons pub in Lime Street station, was closed for all or most of Monday? Or is there a second entrance somewhere off the street?

It was open, they blocked people leaving into the station later in the afternoon.

 

[D9006]

The plan should come with clear measures to communicate to passengers what is happening. The whole fact that this is a tried and tested plan means there has been plenty of time to sort this out. Other posters have made it obvious this communication didn't happen, and some people even received false information. This isn't acceptable. It's especially unacceptable for people to think they're stranded in the city when someone might be going around trying to kill people.

Wembley stadium is exactly the same for both stations,

 

[Starmill]

Northern, TPE and LNWR also operated some late notice extra services to/from Lime St.

I believe Northern, TransPennine Express and Avanti West Coast had extra trains showing a couple of weeks in advance. It's just that most of those were unadvertised. Control were able to get more out of course.

 

[8J]

I believe Northern, TransPennine Express and Avanti West Coast had extra trains showing a couple of weeks in advance. It's just that most of those were unadvertised. Control were able to get more out of course.

Yes - these were in addition to the planned unadvertised services. Avanti managed to run 7 additional services that were only organised on the day, TPE managed 4, Northern managed 12 and LNWR managed 10 which I think is pretty impressive in the circumstances.

Top credit has to go to Avanti for their efforts to run extra trains considering the complexities and distance that some of these additional services covered.

 

[ainsworth74]

Another anonymous member of staff who was there on the day has asked me to post the following:

Multiple members of staff attempted to have a conversation with the BTP that night in an attempt to get more people out of the crowd and into the queuing system as we were extremely concerned about the capacity still available on the trains but were told that they couldn’t facilitate the request.

This was apparently because the queue had broken down by that point so badly that it was not possible to know who was going where any more and allowing some in could cause the police to become overwhelmed and unable to stop the flow of people into the station at all.

Most TOCs had accepted that trains were going to go out late and some of the TOCs had staff on the ground of a senior enough level to authorise delayed departures of services in order to give the best chance of trains being filled.

Unfortunately the shambolic queuing system led to horrific scenes involving customers with physical and mental disabilities being left outside in the rain so when they eventually came into the station they were in often extreme distress.

Many people knew that it was unlikely that the system in place would work. When I arrived the queues were already building, with vast amounts of people in different queues than had been agreed before hand.

The limited amount of Network Rail security staff on the ground very quickly lost control of the situation and were not equipped to deal with the volume of passengers that night. Eventually the BTP had to take complete control of it, NR then declared a major incident and BTP brought in civil police as they were also being overwhelmed by the number of people.

It's also worth knowing that there were times that whist outside may have been chaotic the formal queuing system was actually empty.

I have seen a video shared by the staff member which clearly shows that the queuing system is completely empty of passengers whilst outside the station there are many people on the otherside of a line of police.

 

[bramling]

Yes. Network Rail is often hilariously disconnected from the end-customer.


With personnel like these, you generally need to have them closely supervised by railway staff; otherwise, everything goes wrong.

I’ve always had that feeling of Network Rail’s station staff indeed being very disconnected from the end-user. At times some of their staff seem to walk around with almost disdain and suspicion for anyone actually trying to use the stations. Whether this is a recruitment or management issue I’ve no idea.

 

[danielnez1]

I’ve always had that feeling of Network Rail’s station staff indeed being very disconnected from the end-user. At times some of their staff seem to walk around with almost disdain and suspicion for anyone actually trying to use the stations. Whether this is a recruitment or management issue I’ve no idea.

From what I have seen Network Rail have chronic issues with interacting with every type of customer, from TOC to passenger in everything they do, and can be hostile/bureaucratic in the process for the sake of it. Dare I say it is an us vs them mentality, perhaps inherited from the Railtrack days.

 

[sheff1]

Yes - these were in addition to the planned unadvertised services. Avanti managed to run 7 additional services that were only organised on the day, TPE managed 4, Northern managed 12 and LNWR managed 10 which I think is pretty impressive in the circumstances.

Top credit has to go to Avanti for their efforts to run extra trains considering the complexities and distance that some of these additional services covered.

Yes, good effort there.
Unfortunately, people outside the station who could have travelled on these trains were not allowed to get anywhere near them.

 

[bcarmicle]

If GBR weren't coming (and thus make it pointless in the long term), I think this would make a very good argument that Network Rail should hand over the stations it does manage to a TOC.

 

[8J]

Another anonymous member of staff who was there on the day has asked me to post the following:



I have seen a video shared by the staff member which clearly shows that the queuing system is completely empty of passengers whilst outside the station there are many people on the otherside of a line of police.

I can corroborate this version of events.

Lime St has the potential to form a robust queuing system following large scale events if NR were able to risk assess and reach agreements for using some of the normally unused space on the Lord Nelson St side of the station.

One suggestion I put forward after the 2019 Champions League Final parade was to utilise the space underneath Rail House and the former Platform 1 to feed passengers into local services departing from Platforms 1 - 5 to Wigan, Preston, Blackpool and Manchester Airport. Longer distance regional express services to Glasgow, Newcastle and Scarborough (as was the timetable then) to use the normal entrance to the station at the Lord Nelson St entrance.

To further increase queuing capacity, I also suggested requesting a road closure of Lord Nelson Street from the bottom at the junction with Lime Lime Street to the junction with Hotham Street, opposite the street level entrance to Rail House.

With the correct signage outside the station, notices, announcements in advance of the queuing system and proactive staff in position outside the front (potentially checking tickets too) this would then greatly reduce the pressure on the Skelhorne St end of the station which could be used better used for passengers on services departing from Platforms 6 - 10 to Crewe, Birmingham, London, Norwich and Cleethorpes. The local services to Manchester Oxford Road via CLC could in theory be sent through the local services queue underneath Rail House to platforms 1 - 5 and then back out, either the side gate towards the old platform 6a or through the current automatic ticket gates and then towards platform 6 - 10.

Keep Lime St LL station closed, close the Wetherspoons exit onto the station. Place portaloos in suitable locations near the queue entrances and keep the exit to the front of the station closed/exit only.

My suggestion was deemed logical by my line manager who took it to their senior. I don't know if NR ever received it or if they did, ignored it. The route I suggested underneath Rail House is even step free and is not part of the traincrew official walking route for my company, although a small area could easily be sectioned off for staff walking that way to or from their trains or the car park.

The only possible snag I identified was the DHL/RG catering service centre is on the old platform 1, but that could be managed effectively with dedicated stewards/NR security.

 

[Misici]

I was there at the time and agree with 8J there should be an inquiry in to events that unfolded on with findings published.

From 6:00-7:30pm on Monday. 20 trains departed Lime Street, 1 was cancelled, 3 departed on time with the other 17 departing late by less than 8 minutes on average. Which could have been utilised to transport the majority of passengers in the queue.22 trains also left Liverpool Central during this period also with 1 cancelled. 17 of which departed on time with the longest delay being 2 minutes. Similar to what else has been posted about Arriva buses running all night.

Questions need to be asked of those that devised crowd management strategy and who took control of this. I believe the capacity was there and this wasn't affected by the sad incident in Water Street, despite indications to the contrary.

 

[danielnez1]

While on a smaller scale (and I am likely comparing Apples and Oranges), the NUFC flag parade and event went seemingly off far smoother despite the short term notice, the organisers, authorities and transport operators seemed to coordinate well.

 

[enginedin]

While on a smaller scale (and I am likely comparing Apples and Oranges), the NUFC flag parade and event went seemingly off far smoother despite the short term notice, the organisers, authorities and transport operators seemed to coordinate well.

This was exactly my point in earlier posts: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-lime-street-after-parade.286910/post-7304770 and https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...treet-after-parade.286910/page-3#post-7304799

 

[185]

Should heads roll? Absolutely they should! Northern's station team leader on duty that night was trying to communicate with NR and security staff on duty that trains were leaving half empty and requested that more passengers were let through. He was told in no uncertain terms to go away and not interfere with their operation.

There should be an inquiry in to events that unfolded on Monday 26/05/2025 with findings published.

Can only agree with this, couldn't believe upthread the same faces were exonerating NR and laying blame with the TOCs. The buck stops with NRs Duty Manager, and their immediate management, who after this further failure should be shuffled.

The crowd management - NR overreacting, dismissing the TOCs requests to send more passengers up should all be examined.

 

[The Planner]

From what I have seen Network Rail have chronic issues with interacting with every type of customer, from TOC to passenger in everything they do, and can be hostile/bureaucratic in the process for the sake of it. Dare I say it is an us vs them mentality, perhaps inherited from the Railtrack days.

Ignoring the topic being discussed, that really does go both ways! Operators are just as bad.

 

[Ianigsy]

As well as the entrance from Lime Street station there are two more I think

One in Lord Nelson Street and one on Lime Street itself - my cousin’s daughter called in to use the toilet and was locked in the pub for a while when somebody let a flare off in the bar…..

On the subject of security contractors, I suspect the problem is that they’re given simple black and white instructions but no guidance as to how to escalate matters or make their own decisions. At an event like this, they really should be paired with rail staff who can get hold of a manager quickly.

 

[Red Devil]

Anyone think Network Rail are fit for purpose after this debacle?
After all this is an organisation that struggles to give a passenger wheelchair assistance never mind manage an event of this size.