"CSN Day Single" from Underground station

[tannedfrog]

The other day I bought a CSN Day Single from an Underground station to a station in the NSE area. It was printed on Underground ticket stock and accepted by the guard on the National Rail train.

It appears to be an off peak ticket. The TOC journey planners show a substantially more expensive Anytime Single as being the only single ticket available for that journey.

Can anyone explain this? What does CSN stand for? Neither the ticket price nor the CSN code shows on brfares.

I am not sure I want to give precise details of the journey in case it is a loophole that would get removed.

 

[causton]

Concession. i.e. Railcard discount!

 

[tannedfrog]

Thanks. Why was it cheaper (aside from the Railcard!)?

 

[bb21]

Unless we have the necessary details, I doubt anyone will be able to tell you.

If you don't want to reveal it in public, send the details via PM to a list of forum members and they might be able to figure out why.

 

[barrykas]

London Underground appear to have their own pricing for the range of National Rail tickets they sell, which (as you've discovered) doesn't always bear any resemblance to a similar ticket bought from a National Rail station.

 

[tannedfrog]

Is there any publicly available source of these fares?

 

[ashworth]

London Underground appear to have their own pricing for the range of National Rail tickets they sell, which (as you've discovered) doesn't always bear any resemblance to a similar ticket bought from a National Rail station.

I got caught out by this about a year ago.
I arrived at Stratford having used my Oyster Card on the London Overground from Hampstead Heath and was wanting a Off Peak Day Return to Southend that was valid by both routes to Southend Victoria/Central. The only ticket office I could see inside Stratford Station concourse was the London Transport Ticket Office.
The man there said such a ticket didn't exist and I would have to make a choice which route wanted to travel. I tried to explain to him that there was such a ticket and even told him the price of the ticket I wanted. In the end, I gave up, and settled for a ticket at a slightly higher price valid only via Barking to Southend Central. Not once during my time at the ticket office did he tell me that there was in fact a National Rail ticket office hidden in a corner outside the station entrance where I could have purchased the ticket I wanted at the correct price.

 

[bicbasher]

I got caught out by this about a year ago.
I arrived at Stratford having used my Oyster Card on the London Overground from Hampstead Heath and was wanting a Off Peak Day Return to Southend that was valid by both routes to Southend Victoria/Central. The only ticket office I could see inside Stratford Station concourse was the London Transport Ticket Office.
The man there said such a ticket didn't exist and I would have to make a choice which route wanted to travel. I tried to explain to him that there was such a ticket and even told him the price of the ticket I wanted. In the end, I gave up, and settled for a ticket at a slightly higher price valid only via Barking to Southend Central. Not once during my time at the ticket office did he tell me that there was in fact a National Rail ticket office hidden in a corner outside the station entrance where I could have purchased the ticket I wanted at the correct price.

There are two NR ticket offices at Stratford (London) operated by Greater Anglia. The other is at the Westfield concourse.

 

[ashworth]

There are two NR ticket offices at Stratford (London) operated by Greater Anglia. The other is at the Westfield concourse.

I soon found out about the NR ticket offices after making the mistake but they are not very obvious or well sign posted for anyone arriving within the station complex at Stratford by LO, DLR or tube who might want to buy a ticket for onward travel by NR.

 

[causton]

Agreed, they have a massive sign on the outside telling people to buy their tickets there, but if you're already in the station? Not a clue!

 

[Be3G]

London Underground appear to have their own pricing for the range of National Rail tickets they sell, which (as you've discovered) doesn't always bear any resemblance to a similar ticket bought from a National Rail station.

I'm not entirely certain I believe this. I've only bought a few NR-only tickets from LU ticket offices, but they've always been for the same price as with NR – though I know that's not a very big sample size to draw a conclusion from. What I have noticed though is that the full range isn't always available, e.g. they'll only sell a route any permitted ticket and not cheaper ones with specific routes. It also seems that there's a certain amount of manual looking up and entry of fares/discounts from paper tables required, so perhaps that introduces some errors.

 

[causton]

I'm not entirely certain I believe this. I've only bought a few NR-only tickets from LU ticket offices, but they've always been for the same price as with NR – though I know that's not a very big sample size to draw a conclusion from. What I have noticed though is that the full range isn't always available, e.g. they'll only sell a route any permitted ticket and not cheaper ones with specific routes. It also seems that there's a certain amount of manual looking up and entry of fares/discounts from paper tables required, so perhaps that introduces some errors.

Was it from a station which had an NR service? For example, I bought a single to Hatfield from Moorgate which was the standard price, but looking from some stations e.g. Oxford Circus some fares can differ on the TVMs (or POMs as LU call them) and they were cheaper than buying a Zone U1* fare...

 

[bicbasher]

Agreed, they have a massive sign on the outside telling people to buy their tickets there, but if you're already in the station? Not a clue!

It doesn't also help that at the Westfield concourse both the NR and LUL ticket offices have the same sign branding which doesn't exactly help an outsider know which ticket office to use!

The LUL ticket clerk's should direct passengers to the GA ticket office for NR destinations.

Whenever I've used the Westfield concourse, the GA ticket office is only dealing with one customer or none at all, with everyone else using the Underground booths.

The main GA ticket office outside the main entrance is busy, but agree that there is poor signage to direct people to it.

 

[causton]

It doesn't also help that at the Westfield concourse both the NR and LUL ticket offices have the same sign branding which doesn't exactly help an outsider know which ticket office to use!

The LUL ticket clerk's should direct passengers to the GA ticket office.

Whenever I've used the Westfield concourse, the GA ticket office is only dealing with one customer or none at all, with everyone else using the Underground booths.

The main GA ticket office outside the main entrance is busy, but agree that there is poor signage to direct people to it.

I didn't actually know there was a Greater Anglia ticket office there! I just looked over and saw one ticket office! That must be a nice (or boring) shift for the GA staff there

 

[supervalkoinen]

The other day I bought a CSN Day Single from an Underground station to a station in the NSE area. It was printed on Underground ticket stock and accepted by the guard on the National Rail train.

It appears to be an off peak ticket. The TOC journey planners show a substantially more expensive Anytime Single as being the only single ticket available for that journey.

Can anyone explain this? What does CSN stand for? Neither the ticket price nor the CSN code shows on brfares.

I am not sure I want to give precise details of the journey in case it is a loophole that would get removed.

Was it for the Marrakech Express?

 

[bicbasher]

I didn't actually know there was a Greater Anglia ticket office there! I just looked over and saw one ticket office! That must be a nice (or boring) shift for the GA staff there

The GA ticket office is badly positioned tucked away in the corner, as soon as you walk in from Westfield, you see the larger LUL ticket office in the centre of the concourse.

 

[Be3G]

It doesn't also help that at the Westfield concourse both the NR and LUL ticket offices have the same sign branding which doesn't exactly help an outsider know which ticket office to use!

There is some differentiation in the logos above the NR and LUL ticket offices at the Westfield concourse isn't there? I remember when I first used that concourse, looking at the separate ticket offices and after a few seconds realising that one was rail and one was tube. I can't remember what the exact difference was though, so it was probably fairly subtle.

Was it from a station which had an NR service? For example, I bought a single to Hatfield from Moorgate which was the standard price, but looking from some stations e.g. Oxford Circus some fares can differ on the TVMs (or POMs as LU call them) and they were cheaper than buying a Zone U1* fare...

Good point, the tickets were all purchased from human beings at stations which had NR services there too.

 

[Mojo]

What I have noticed though is that the full range isn't always available, e.g. they'll only sell a route any permitted ticket and not cheaper ones with specific routes.

On a number of flows multiple route options are available, for example to Ashford Intl you can have route Plus High Speed or Not HS1, and to Gatwick Airport tickets only allowing travel on Capital Connect for the NR portion exist, for example.

 

[bicbasher]

There is some differentiation in the logos above the NR and LUL ticket offices at the Westfield concourse isn't there? I remember when I first used that concourse, looking at the separate ticket offices and after a few seconds realising that one was rail and one was tube. I can't remember what the exact difference was though, so it was probably fairly subtle.

The only clue I found to which is the NR office is the GA TVM's next to the booths.

I'll have to really check the signs above to spot the difference, but it's fair to say that to the average user, it's the same blue signs with a white New Johnston font which can cause confusion.

 

[causton]

Tried to have a look on the National Rail site but it doesn't show the other entrance at all - disgraceful! Even shows the DLR extension as under construction! For a pretty important station and all that...

 

[Be3G]

On a number of flows multiple route options are available, for example to Ashford Intl you can have route Plus High Speed or Not HS1, and to Gatwick Airport tickets only allowing travel on Capital Connect for the NR portion exist, for example.

Interesting. Back before the zonal rail-only fares were introduced I recall trying to buy a Stratford to Enfield Lock not via London ticket from Stratford LU and all they could offer was the any permitted for about £1 more.

 

[IanD]

Was it for the Marrakech Express?

 

[Deerfold]

Tried to have a look on the National Rail site but it doesn't show the other entrance at all - disgraceful! Even shows the DLR extension as under construction! For a pretty important station and all that...

Perhaps they'll have it updated in time for the Olympics when lots of people might be checking.

 

[benk1342]

The LUL ticket clerk's should direct passengers to the GA ticket office for NR destinations.

It depends how you look at it. On the one hand, your proposition would resolve the problem of people being issued with less-than-ideal tickets from the LU ticket office.

On the other hand, when someone has already waited in a queue to buy a ticket, the last thing they want to hear is that they are at the wrong window and need to go wait in another queue. The "average punter" doesn't care whether it is a LU or GA ticket office; the sign at the top said "Tickets"!

So one solution is to enable the LU ticket offices to issue the correct range of National Rail fares. This of course requires training and equipment (or at least new software) which costs money.

Another solution is to make the signage more clear, but people don't really read signs.

So we're back where we started!

 

[bicbasher]

It depends how you look at it. On the one hand, your proposition would resolve the problem of people being issued with less-than-ideal tickets from the LU ticket office.

On the other hand, when someone has already waited in a queue to buy a ticket, the last thing they want to hear is that they are at the wrong window and need to go wait in another queue. The "average punter" doesn't care whether it is a LU or GA ticket office; the sign at the top said "Tickets"!

So one solution is to enable the LU ticket offices to issue the correct range of National Rail fares. This of course requires training and equipment (or at least new software) which costs money.

Another solution is to make the signage more clear, but people don't really read signs.

So we're back where we started!

FasTIS, which LU use on the Bakerloo line north of Queens Park and at London Overground stations would be the ideal solution which integrates the TfL software with standard NR ticketing.

I wonder if it's a franchise requirement that GA have to provide a ticket office service at Stratford, despite LU managing the station? With this, LU don't have to provide a full range or NR tickets.

Yet the loser in all of this is the passenger, who could be in for a nasty shock if they attempt to buy a ticket to Norwich from the LU office.

 

[Mojo]

FasTIS, which LU use on the Bakerloo line north of Queens Park and at London Overground stations would be the ideal solution which integrates the TfL software with standard NR ticketing.

Whilst, as far as the customer is concerned, these ticket offices can perform the same functions (just the stock is different), as far as many back office and accounting functions are concerned the system operates totally different from the rest of the Underground network (excl. Gunnersbury/Kew Gdns which are the same as north of Queens Park), and if this was rolled out would require some pretty major changes across the network. There are also other software and hardware issues that would have to be resolved to ensure compatibility with other station equipment which feeds in to the Ticket Office Machine.

 

[bicbasher]

Whilst, as far as the customer is concerned, these ticket offices can perform the same functions (just the stock is different), as far as many back office and accounting functions are concerned the system operates totally different from the rest of the Underground network (excl. Gunnersbury/Kew Gdns which are the same as north of Queens Park), and if this was rolled out would require some pretty major changes across the network. There are also other software and hardware issues that would have to be resolved to ensure compatibility with other station equipment which feeds in to the Ticket Office Machine.

I should have made my point clearer that FasTIS should only be installed at shared LU/NR stations, such as Moorgate, Old Street, Harrow on the Hill, Canada Water and Stratford. It wouldn't be viable if a tube station isn't served by NR where the TfL/NR premium would be the correct fare to charge.

 

[tannedfrog]

Thanks. Why was it cheaper (aside from the Railcard!)?

I have now been told that Network Railcard discounts can't be given at tube stations - is that correct?

 

[island]

I have now been told that Network Railcard discounts can't be given at tube stations - is that correct?

My wife has previously purchased tickets with a Network Railcard discount from a number of London Underground stations.

Don't forget there is a minimum fare of £13 on weekdays for Network Railcard-discounted tickets.

 

[Mojo]

I have now been told that Network Railcard discounts can't be given at tube stations - is that correct?

Only certain stations can offer Railcard discounts of any sort.