Cumbria Council submits bid for Windermere improvements

[Killingworth]

Really? Looks like 3 bus stops and one waiting spot. Not a lot of room for stacking enough coaches to cart off a charter train’s worth of passengers.

In any case would it not make more sense to off load charter passengers at Oxenholme and bus them round the Lake District from there? Or with this hypothetical new loop run a shuttle service to and from Windermere for those who want to go there?

Windermere station can be a disappointment for those who haven't done their homework before visiting. It's a long way to walk to even see the lake or to Bowness, probably the'most popular part of the lake, or a bus ride to Ambleside.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Windermere station can be a disappointment for those who haven't done their homework before visiting. It's a long way to walk to even see the lake or to Bowness, probably the'most popular part of the lake, or a bus ride to Ambleside.

Windermere station is very conveniently located in the town of Windermere, which used to be a bit of a "frontier" non-town but is now very nice, with the famous "trainshed"* Booths, a selection of independent hotels and B&Bs and some decent restaurants and chippies.

A lot of people do seem to erroneously think it's actually in Bowness-on-Windermere (or confuse the two towns), which is a couple of miles away, but there's an excellent bus service so that's not disastrous. So far as UK integration goes it's not bad - bus straight outside the station and the times largely do match up.

I don't quite know how that town got its name when it's not on the lake, though - perhaps a railway town named from the station? Edit: Wikipedia thinks so.

* Only part of it is original, most of it is a rebuild to look original. I believe the original bit is the "goods dock" near the bus stop and the rest of that wall.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Prior to the arrival of the railway in the 1840's, the locality adjacent to where Windermere station now is, was known as Birthwaite, but Windermere, being the Lake District's biggest lake was probably a better known name, notwithstanding that it's a good couple of miles down the hill.

 

[Geeves]

I think the next bid for 195 derivatives are going to be battery/electric/diesel hybrid so you'd assume these would be on the Windermere jobs considering the amount of wires on the run

 

[wireforever]

Wasn't the electric wiring for the line cancelled and Grayling the minister at the time said battery powered trains were imminent and would be used instead

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wasn't the electric wiring for the line cancelled and Grayling the minister at the time said battery powered trains were imminent and would be used instead

Allegedly. But then came Liz Truss and cuts, so I don't think these units will be ordered, Northern will just have to cut services so they can run with what they have.

It still needs wiring. If the typical railway steel masts would be too ugly, use attractive wooden or cast iron instead.

 

[Geeves]

I think the issue was the the orders had already gone in for the regular DMU and EMU stock at the time of cancellation. I remember that 3 extra 195s were added in the end vs wiring

 

[zwk500]

It still needs wiring. If the typical railway steel masts would be too ugly, use attractive wooden or cast iron instead.

Just paint them green/blue. Or, as it's the lakes, Grey would probably be less intrusive against the sky.

 

[adamedwards]

Re the half hourly service, the idea I believe is that means you don't arrange the branch around the main line triains, you simply have people changing wait for the next train in 30 mins. That would also then make scheduling with the main line easier as the Manchester trains run in a regular slot in a regular timetable. A regular 30min service ought to then work with buses to Bowness and Ambleside, assuming Stagecoach collaborate.

The buse terminal at Windermere is getting major works to enable the buses to get in from the south, so able to turn off the A591 before the traffic jams at the Bowness junction. The road will be a loop rather than the cul-de-sac currently. That looks spacious until you see the line the buses taken when turning around.

I assumed the planned single line crossing is more than half way along the line as the trains do a minimal turnaround at Windermere and have a longer dwell time at Oxenholme? Is that logical? If that also eliminates the 5mph ungated level crossing that would seriously improve journey times.

As regards electrification masts, when the govt used that as an excuse to cancel the local user group posted a photo of the national grid wires at Burneside to show they would make no difference. The answer I would hope might lie in the trial of carbon fibre masts which are self insulation and can I assume be wood coloured. They are also much lighter so don't need deep foundations.

 

[CE142]

Yes, Grayling cancelled the wires and 3 extra 195s were added to the Northern 195 order as a result.

 

[Bald Rick]

The answer I would hope might lie in the trial of carbon fibre masts which are self insulation

I wouldn’t trust Carbon fibre to be an insulator if I were you.

Composites, eg Fibre Reinforced Polymers will be what they are. (A couple of trial masts had Carbon, but that wasn’t ever intended for production versions).

 

[emoaconr]

Cumbria County Council is being abolished this year. It does seem rather a timely proposal.

 

[Hardcastle]

It seems strange Cumbria County Council getting involved in public transport they don't subsidise bus services anymore they do nothing about supporting getting the Keswick line reopened to ease the congestion as emoaconr says the county council will be abolished this year.

 

[Bald Rick]

It seems strange Cumbria County Council getting involved in public transport ….they do nothing about supporting getting the Keswick line reopened

Well at least they do something right!

 

[Class 170101]

Electric trains (not necessarily electrification) would improve the service by itself. Would probably knock 5 mins off a return trip.

I take you are thinking along the lines of a Class 755 here.

 

[Energy]

I take you are thinking along the lines of a Class 755 here.

More like battery trains though a high acceleration DMU like the 755 would cut some time off.

 

[Agent_Squash]

More like battery trains though a high acceleration DMU like the 755 would cut some time off.

It's already got 195s, acceleration is hardly an issue.

 

[Bald Rick]

I take you are thinking along the lines of a Class 755 here.

Battery. It’s the very obvious solution on that line, and cheaper than OLE.

 

[Energy]

Battery. It’s the very obvious solution on that line, and cheaper than OLE.

Are there any low bridges or tunnels which will need fixing for OHLE?

 

[Class 170101]

Battery. It’s the very obvious solution on that line, and cheaper than OLE.

I wasn't thinking OLE on the Windermere branch. Hopefully they would also be suitable for Manchester to Barrow services - changing power mode at Carnforth.

 

[Bald Rick]

Are there any low bridges or tunnels which will need fixing for OHLE?

A few bridges. Also a lot of trees to cut down.

 

[The Planner]

It's already got 195s, acceleration is hardly an issue.

You still need to find at least 6-7 minutes off the journey to do it without infrastructure intervention.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You still need to find at least 6-7 minutes off the journey to do it without infrastructure intervention.

When it had a more sensible 2 hour cycle of direct Manchester and local Oxenholme service, the fasts didn't stop at Burneside and Staveley but the locals to Oxenholme did, giving these two very quiet stations a two hourly service. OK, that didn't give you hourly clockface but a two hour pattern, but it did work.

Would probably need gates on Burneside crossing to speed up much there though?

 

[Killingworth]

A few bridges. Also a lot of trees to cut down.

Looking at aerial views there are more small bridges than I'd imagined, and quite a lot of vehicle and pedestrian level crossings that currently reduce scope to speed services.

 

[geoffk]

McNulty thought it was silly.

But not as silly as running diesels all the way from Manchester. Surprised that Cumbria is considering this as they have a poor record on supporting public transport. I believe they no longer support any bus services at all.

 

[mbonwick]

Cumbria County Council is being abolished this year. It does seem rather a timely proposal.

All part of the madness of the winding up! They're throwing loads of "green" projects out there with no commitment so there can be lots of self congratulation and back slapping from all those departing and not taking up jobs in the new unitary authorities.
For example, CCC have submitted planning permission for 3 solar farms in the past month, and are selling off land/buildings like it's going out of fashion...

 

[Roose]

A few points in summary:

• The proposal from the major authority (County Council) who are the strategic authority for transport under the current two-tier local authority system in the Lakes Counties is based upon consultancy work commission by the Lakes Line Community Rail Partnership, reported in 2017. Subsequently, the work has had to be revisited by the county council to satisfy the DfT and more data from the LLCRP and the Lakes Line User Group has been used to assist this process.
• The cabinet member responsible for transport said today that the council "won't know about potholes unless (someone) tells us" - an indication of the department's level of organisation, expertise and strategy.
• From April, the area will be covered by a new unitary authority, known as Westmorland and Furness (but also responsible for the Cartmel peninsula, a postage stamp of the West Riding and a decent chunk of East Cumberland, to the Pennines and almost to the edge of Carlisle) who will take over projects currently under way but will ultimately determine their own priorities and policies.
• The work relates specifically to public transport with the aim of minimising connection times at Oxenholme (which can be awful) for branch passengers and doubling the number of passengers to over half a million annually. This would be achieved by the introduction of a half-hourly service on the nine-mile branch which has a current journey time of 19 or 20 minutes. To allow sufficient time for the turn-round and build in some recovery time, the recommendation was to create an extended passing loop from Burneside towards Staveley, build a second platform at Burneside, improve line speeds where possible, improve level crossings (one has a 5mph restriction at present) and add further signalling. This wouldn't be cheap.
• Not part of the proposals, but worth noting: Staveley's single platform is accessed exclusively by a single stairway with around 40 steps. (Look on Google Street View) This will need to be addressed, presumably sooner rather than later, likely as part of an accessibility initiative.
• There is no proposal for a second platform at Windermere. Why would there be? This is a public transport project and fewer than ten charter trains per year would not in any respect be relevant. In any case, Windermere - a village with few facilities -would not make a great destination other than perhaps people who like to buy kitchen things to sit, largely unused, in their drawers or those prepared on a good day to walk up Orrest Head. Bowness is a better destination and while the bus service there may be described as "excellent" for the average visitor, at least in Lakeland terms, it is irrelevant to a charter train full of trippers all wanting to head down and back at about the same times. A charter train would need to be a DMU or have a loco at each end, With a potential turning facility for a steam engine only at either Carlisle, Barrow or the Morecambe branch, steam haulage is unlikely to be feasible.
• I agree with the mention up-thread of 'slim' and 'fat' seeming not unreasonable in terms of prospects for success but facts, a firm proposal and LA commitment are a good place to start getting things moving. Without ambition, there is no progress.

 

[lakeland844]

Plenty of room for road coaches. There's like a mini bus station thing going on there.



It's difficult to justify half hourly. Better would be to sort out the mess that is the north WCML timetable so that itself is clockface, which would have other benefits.

It's a very busy little transport hub with regular Stagecoach services to Lancaster, Keswick, Kendal, Barrow, Grasmere, Coniston and Penrith. It's also a crew change over point and at times it can't even cope with the regular services ! There is a narrow single way 'throat' at the entry and exit point as well as a well used taxi rank and the need to maintain access the Lakeland Ltd store car park . I've driven services out of there for 5 years and in season it can be chaotic. There is no scope whatever to stack and load/unload tour coaches at this location, trust me !

 

[CE142]

I wasn't thinking OLE on the Windermere branch. Hopefully they would also be suitable for Manchester to Barrow services - changing power mode at Carnforth.

NO! Once you have done the overheads on the Windermere branch, you then start to do the overheads between Carnforth to Barrow! What is this countries obsession with having Electro-Diesels running around?

You could have the Windermere branch done in about 3 months with weekend closures in the winter, then with overnight closures on the Furness line during the winter you could do a hell of a lot of work ready for the wires to go up. Should take no longer than 18 months.

 

[Killingworth]

NO! Once you have done the overheads on the Windermere branch, you then start to do the overheads between Carnforth to Barrow! What is this countries obsession with having Electro-Diesels running around?

You could have the Windermere branch done in about 3 months with weekend closures in the winter, then with overnight closures on the Furness line during the winter you could do a hell of a lot of work ready for the wires to go up. Should take no longer than 18 months.

Possibly get the Windermere branch electrified with a full 3 month winter closure but 40 miles or so to Barrow in 18 months, assuming funds were found?