Curious arrangement at Lancaster today

[randyrippley]

Surprised to see a London-bound (via Birmingham) Pendolino routed south through Lancaster platform 3 around 5pm today (390132).
This seemed to be caused by a Northern 158 stranded on platform 4 following a crew change (or possible missing crew change......I was only getting snippets of someone else's comments).
Nothing wrong with the 158 - 20 minutes or so later it ran a service to Morecambe. But why was it on p4? Usually 158s reverse on p5, and p5 was OK - another 158 ran into it while the Morecambe service was waiting to depart. So even assuming the 158 was placed on p4 by accident, p5 would have been available for the Pendolino. Or will an 11-coach set not fit into p5?

 

[43055]

Looks like the 158 arrived from Leeds at 1609 and then cancelled. Platform 4 is the booked platform for this service. As for platform 5, the track map I have shows it as 8 coaches so no 390's would be able to use it.

Realtime Trains | 2H17 1418 Leeds to Lancaster | 06/08/2024

Real-time train running information for 2H17 1418 departure from Leeds to Lancaster on 06/08/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[AMD]

Yes, no driver to take it down to Morecambe as the Skipton driver is due their break at Lancaster, but was a late notification. So the 158 ended up sitting on P4 until its next booked move at 17:12 - had Network Rail known in advance it would have been dumped into P1.
And you also note P5, no too short for a Pendolino as the platform length is 171m, and that's before you take into account where the signal is on the Up direction.

 

[yorksrob]

The Leeds - Morecambe often reverses in platform 4.

 

[Mollman]

The last few times I have been to Lancaster to catch the train towards Preston around 16:30, the Leeds - Morecambe service has reversed in Platform 4.

 

[ScottGallagher]

The Leeds - Morecambe often reverses in platform 4.

That seems really strange considering that's the mainline and that platforms 1,2 and 5 are almost never occupied at the same time.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The Leeds - Morecambe often reverses in platform 4.

Indeed. Seems to be five workings timetabled to depart from platform 4 at Lancaster (for Morecambe) on weekdays; as you say, all but one having originated from Leeds. Presume there's some logical reason why platform 4 is used for such reversals, not platform 5.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Indeed. Seems to be five workings timetabled to depart from platform 4 at Lancaster (for Morecambe) on weekdays; as you say, all but one having originated from Leeds. Presume there's some logical reason why platform 4 is used for such reversals, not platform 5.

Is there an operational reason for this. Morecambe trains are often Pl2 and whichever side they reverse in needs to cross the main line at some point.

 

[randyrippley]

Is there an operational reason for this. Morecambe trains are often Pl2 and whichever side they reverse in needs to cross the main line at some point.

The 156s just running Morecambe-Lancaster always use p1/p2
Reversals with the Leeds-Morecambe 158s are on 4/5, but they always used to be 5.
All the Morecambe>Leeds services I've used recently have been on 5, this one was Leeds>Morecambe, is that the difference?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 156s just running Morecambe-Lancaster always use p1/p2
Reversals with the Leeds-Morecambe 158s are on 4/5, but they always used to be 5.
All the Morecambe>Leeds services I've used recently have been on 5, this one was Leeds>Morecambe, is that the difference?

I witnessed a Morecambe-Leeds reversing in 3 on Friday early afternoon - did seem unusual!

I wonder if they're reducing use of 5 while the long overdue refurbishment takes place, perhaps it narrows the platform a bit or something?

 

[randyrippley]

I witnessed a Morecambe-Leeds reversing in 3 on Friday early afternoon - did seem unusual!

I wonder if they're reducing use of 5 while the long overdue refurbishment takes place, perhaps it narrows the platform a bit or something?

At the moment there's a lot of scaffolding on 4 and 5, though maybe more on 5

 

[yorksrob]

The 156s just running Morecambe-Lancaster always use p1/p2
Reversals with the Leeds-Morecambe 158s are on 4/5, but they always used to be 5.
All the Morecambe>Leeds services I've used recently have been on 5, this one was Leeds>Morecambe, is that the difference?

Morecambe - Leeds services often use 1 of an evening - which is handy for the pub !

That seems really strange considering that's the mainline and that platforms 1,2 and 5 are almost never occupied at the same time.

Indeed. Seems to be five workings timetabled to depart from platform 4 at Lancaster (for Morecambe) on weekdays; as you say, all but one having originated from Leeds. Presume there's some logical reason why platform 4 is used for such reversals, not platform 5.

It's certainly a very flexible layout. I've had Leeds trains reverse in 3 on occasion.

 

[AMD]

For the service that has created this thread, P5 is already occupied, so P4 is best choice as using P1 involves crossing from the Up line and over the down using up pathing. It should also be noted that double blocking is used in the down direction for P3 because of the very short overlap from the P3 starting signal to the crossover for P1&2, which means that anything going into the bays will result in a service going north being held at the signal up by the canal.
Class 158s are not cleared for P2 due to the restricted clearance - next time you see a 156 on P2 have a look and note how close the train is to the platform!
Interestingly this service ended up in P1 today, even though it did go to Morecambe.

 

[ScottGallagher]

For the service that has created this thread, P5 is already occupied, so P4 is best choice as using P1 involves crossing from the Up line and over the down using up pathing. It should also be noted that double blocking is used in the down direction for P3 because of the very short overlap from the P3 starting signal to the crossover for P1&2, which means that anything going into the bays will result in a service going north being held at the signal up by the canal.
Class 158s are not cleared for P2 due to the restricted clearance - next time you see a 156 on P2 have a look and note how close the train is to the platform!
Interestingly this service ended up in P1 today, even though it did go to Morecambe.

So 158's are cleared for platform 1?

 

[jfollows]

So 158's are cleared for platform 1?

Sectional Appendix https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sectional-appendix/Sectional Appendix full PDFs June 24/London North Western (North) Sectional Appendix June 2024.pdf only says “Prohibited Lancaster Down Bay platform 2” so, yes, platform 1 is fine.

 

[a_c_skinner]

as using P1 involves crossing from the Up line and over the down using up pathing

It only changes when the crossing takes place, any reversal needs to block both main lines. Doesn't it?

 

[Pinus contorta]

Does the Leeds to Morecambe ever end up being a 3 or is it always a 2 car 158? Are they all routed over the other side of the station nowadays to cover this eventuality? Even if its very rare.

Bit of an issue if a 3 car showed up and couldn't go into p1 (too short) or P2 ( not enough clearance)

 

[308165]

Does the Leeds to Morecambe ever end up being a 3 or is it always a 2 car 158? Are they all routed over the other side of the station nowadays to cover this eventuality? Even if its very rare.

Bit of an issue if a 3 car showed up and couldn't go into p1 (too short) or P2 ( not enough clearance)

The 0522 Skipton - Lancaster is usually a 3 car and goes into platform 1. The other service which is routinely a 3 car is the 1726 Leeds - Morecambe and return which goes into platform 5.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Indeed. Seems to be five workings timetabled to depart from platform 4 at Lancaster (for Morecambe) on weekdays; as you say, all but one having originated from Leeds. Presume there's some logical reason why platform 4 is used for such reversals, not platform 5.

So, is platform 5 usually already occupied at the times that the handful of trains from Morecambe or Leeds come into platform 4 at Lancaster, before reversing and then continuing (back) to Morecambe? (Approximate arrival times of the relevant inbound workings into Lancaster platform 4 being 0911, 1205, 1411 and 1611).

 

[QueensCurve]

Morecambe - Leeds services often use 1 of an evening - which is handy for the pub !


It's certainly a very flexible layout. I've had Leeds trains reverse in 3 on occasion.

It is now, but it was only 11 years ago that the facing Xover went in a the South end to make all the through platforms biderectional

In about 1983 or 84 i was on a down train that was delayed 2 hours South of Lancaster after a preceding service failed in Platform 3.

 

[yorksrob]

It is now, but it was only 11 years ago that the facing Xover went in a the South end to make all the through platforms biderectional

In about 1983 or 84 i was on a down train that was delayed 2 hours South of Lancaster after a preceding service failed in Platform 3.

It is a location that calls for flexibility.

 

[Andy Pacer]

Does the Leeds to Morecambe ever end up being a 3 or is it always a 2 car 158? Are they all routed over the other side of the station nowadays to cover this eventuality? Even if its very rare.

Bit of an issue if a 3 car showed up and couldn't go into p1 (too short) or P2 ( not enough clearance)

I don't think platform 1 is too short for a 3 car class 158 (train length around 68m on a platform that is 72m).

 

[driver9000]

I don't think platform 1 is too short for a 3 car class 158 (train length around 68m on a platform that is 72m).

It's tight but 3 car 158 does fit in platform 1 at Lancaster.

 

[yorksrob]

I don't think platform 1 is too short for a 3 car class 158 (train length around 68m on a platform that is 72m).

It's not. It often accommodates them.

 

[Andy Pacer]

It's tight but 3 car 158 does fit in platform 1 at Lancaster.

It's not. It often accommodates them.

As I thought but thanks for the confirmation.

 

[Pinus contorta]

My bad

 

[Freightmaster]

Just happened to look at my 'local' map a few minutes ago and saw that
the entire Lancaster station area was gridlocked!!




(edit: 2Y02 subsequently went into platform one to reverse)

 

[janb]

So, is platform 5 usually already occupied at the times that the handful of trains from Morecambe or Leeds come into platform 4 at Lancaster, before reversing and then continuing (back) to Morecambe? (Approximate arrival times of the relevant inbound workings into Lancaster platform 4 being 0911, 1205, 1411 and 1611).

Yes for the 0911 shuttle arrival platform 5 is occupied between 0852 and 0941 with 5Y58/2Y58.
You haven't mentioned the 1006 arrival but platform 5 is occupied between 0945 and 1014 by 5C51/2C51. Also needs to be freed up by 1033 for 1Y80.
1205 I can't see an obvious conflict.
1411 no conflict if things go to plan but potential for 2C89 to still be blocking 5 if things don't go to plan.
For 1611 platform 5 is occupied between 1551 and 1644 by 2C72/2C75.

When things are running late at Lancaster for those of us anxiously awaiting its arrival in Morecambe using 4 is a good thing as it means the signaller knows they have to move it ASAP rather than ignore it.