Current status on which routes and stock are DOO and which have Guards and what door control methods are used?

[capitalconnect]

There are three Enterprise sets and a number of spare coaches which are rotated in/out of the regular sets. Not four sets.

Thank you. That makes sense now. I saw on Wikipedia it says there are 28 coaches and 4 generator vans and i know they use seven coach plus one generator van sets so i presumed that it was four sets. Hopefully the fire damaged one will be repaired soon.

 

[43066]

In times of disruption a mainline service can leave the London terminus without a guard and pick up the guard at Bromley South or Swanley for example. But the drivers must be informed as to what is going on.

Thanks. Rarely used I suspect, as guards are never rostered to join at these points, and control would need to be very certain the guard was indeed present at Bromley south/swanley or wherever…

Thank you for confirming this. That is good to know. I thought that may have been the case. I suppose that makes sense as other metro services run DOO without any second member of staff onboard in this area.

SE metro services start and end within the DOO area and don’t run with guards as a matter of course. SE mainline services continue to destinations outside of the DOO area and leaving London DOO in extremis to meet a guard at an intermediate station would open a can of worms if the guard turned out not to be present. In that case the train would have to be terminated and continue ECS to get it out of the way.

Generally easier to cancel at origin.

 

[capitalconnect]

Thanks. Rarely used I suspect, as guards are never rostered to join at these points, and control would need to be very certain the guard was indeed present at Bromley south/swanley or wherever…



SE metro services start and end within the DOO area and don’t run with guards as a matter of course. SE mainline services continue to destinations outside of the DOO area and leaving London DOO in extremis to meet a guard at an intermediate station would open a can of worms if the guard turned out not to be present. In that case the train would have to be terminated and continue ECS to get it out of the way.

Generally easier to cancel at origin.

Yes that makes sense. It must be only used in very rare occasions. Although i guess it would be used more in the London bound direction with the Guard alighting early as there is less of a problem with a train being stranded at a London Terminal than at either Gillingham / Otford / Sevenoaks / Swanley which only have limited platforms .

Before they went DOO on Southern all 377s and 455s between Dorking and Horsham had to have a Guard who would simply join and leave the train at Dorking station. However i remember there were a few occasions where a Guard did not turn up and the train had to terminate and restart at Dorking instead. Similarly on all 377s and 455s between Leatherhead and Guildford a Guard would simply join and leave the train at Leatherhead station. Again on a few occasions a Guard did not turn up so the train would have to be diverted to Dorking instead so that it did not just sit at Leatherhead and block the line.

Interestingly i was searching this forum and i found this thread on this forum about a train leaving Otford without a Guard onboard and getting stuck at Kemsing station:

Southeastern Train passengers had to change and wait 10 mins, in conductor mix-up

Link: BBC News Kent Southeastern Train passengers stranded in conductor mix-up Southeastern Trains has apologised after hundreds of commuters were told to get off a train because it had left without its conductor. The conductor had helped a partially-sighted passenger off the train at Otford...

www.railforums.co.uk

So it appears that although a Guard must be onboard to and from Otford they do not close the doors and despatch the train until it is at Kemsing (the next station) instead.

I presumed that the Guard would close the doors and despatch the train onboard all Kent bound services from Gillingham / Otford / Sevenoaks / Swanley but it seems they only have to be onboard from these stations but they do not start closing the doors and despatching until Rainham / Kemsing / Hildenborough / Farningham Road stations.

 

[ComUtoR]

A Guard will be rostered to be there but technically doesn't have to be. Inside the DOO area all that is required is a Driver. You should not leave the DOO area without a Guard so the Guard will have to be onboard at Otford because Otford - Kemsing isn't cleared for DOO. Gillingham is also unique in this case because you cannot depart from Gillingham, if going via sole street, without a Guard. On Southeastern it's either inside or outside the 'DOO Area' unless its a 395 (as its DCO) or subject to local agreement.

 

[Jason48]

I was wondering what the current status is on which trains and lines are DOO and which trains have Guards still. And on the trains that have Guards which door control operation is used. There have been so many strikes and changes and new stock introduced in recent years so it makes it hard to keep track of everything.

On some trains the guard both opens and closes the doors.

On some trains the driver opens the doors and the guard closes the doors.

On some trains the driver opens the doors and closes the doors but the guard tells the driver when to close the doors (ten bell despatch method).

Some trains are entirely DOO.

Some have an OBM or OBS onboard (who have nothing to do with the doors or despatch) but i do not think they are guaranteed so it is basically DOO still. I am not sure what is happening on AGA since the new Stadler Flirt but am presuming they use this method too perhaps? Not sure if this is happening on the new Merseyrail stock too?

I remember hearing a while ago that SWR (who is currently Guard open Guard close on all stock) are changing this soon to make the Driver open and close but i am not sure when. Is there any word yet on how the 701s will operate? Are they going to be DOO?

Likewise with the new 196s and 730s on LNWR and WMR are they going DOO? I think i heard a few years ago something about LM looking to go DOO so just wondering? Is there any word on the new TFW stock also?

Finally i am sure i heard something about the RMT being unhappy about the EMR 360s too? Are these now operating DOO on some journeys?

With all the new trains that have been introduced in the past years and all the RMT disputes it is difficult to keep up with the changes. So if anyone can confirm what stock is DOO or not and if it is not DOO than what door control method it uses that would be great.

By searching on this forum i found this very old thread from about five years ago but it is mostly out of date:

Door Opening and Door Closing procedures on Guard operated trains.

I'm just interested what are the door opening and door closing procedures on different Guard operated trains? There seems to be 3 methods. method a. The Guard opens and closes the doors using the panel. method b. The Driver open the doors and then the Guard closes the doors using the...

www.railforums.co.uk

So i have copied that list and tried to make a new more up to date list below. If anyone can help with any of the question marks that would be much appreciated. As there are quite a few with question marks that i am not sure about.



I will update the list if anyone adds any information or can answer the question marks.

I know there are plenty of other threads for discussing DOO and the pros and cons so this thread is only for discussing what routes are DOO and what are not and which door control methods are used by Drivers and Guards on the trains.

Many thanks.

On Southeastern we Guards can close doors from back cab of 375 units. No ten bell operation normally in use

 

[capitalconnect]

A Guard will be rostered to be there but technically doesn't have to be. Inside the DOO area all that is required is a Driver. You should not leave the DOO area without a Guard so the Guard will have to be onboard at Otford because Otford - Kemsing isn't cleared for DOO. Gillingham is also unique in this case because you cannot depart from Gillingham, if going via sole street, without a Guard. On Southeastern it's either inside or outside the 'DOO Area' unless its a 395 (as its DCO) or subject to local agreement.

May i ask what the "subject to local agreement" means? Are these other areas where trains can sometimes run DOO if it is necessary? If so on what occasions would this be allowed? I think you mentioned something about DOO to Tonbridge earlier on in this thread?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Sep 2021 ==

On Southeastern we Guards can close doors from back cab of 375 units. No ten bell operation normally in use

Thank you for the information. Sorry i will update that now. I think that user Galvanize also pointed that out earlier in the thread. So it is just 377 trains that require ten bell despatch from the cab but not the 375 trains.

Can i also ask are Southeastern Guards completely banned from using ten bell despatch when on 377 trains? I know Southeastern Guards work 377/1 and 377/5 on the Southeastern network and 377/3 on the Redhill to Tonbridge line? So just wondering are they strictly prohibited from using the cabs on these trains and allowed to use the saloon only? Or can they actually use ten bell despatch from the cabs on the 377 trains if it is necessary? Like if they are on a 377 and it is very overcrowded or any situation like that?

Also does anyone know the situation regarding the 387 now that they have Guards between Didcot Parkway and Cardiff Central stations? Can the doors be closed from the cabs of the 387 trains? Or do they have to just do ten bell despatch when working from the cab?

 

[notadriver]

Who is ‘in charge’ of the train according to the rulebook ?

 

[LowLevel]

Who is ‘in charge’ of the train according to the rulebook ?

The traincrew is the easiest answer to that though there are different responsibilities at different TOCs. At my TOC the rules course answer was always "the Guard is in charge of the train and the Driver operates it according to the Guard's instructions, but the driver is responsible for the protection of the train in an emergency and for managing safety critical communications with the signaller".

In practice we work as a team. In normal circumstances I manage the customer situation on board as the guard and most contacts with Control (because they can ring me but they can't ring the driver - the exception being safety critical things like contact between the driver and maintenance controller for safety system defects), as well as looking after things like the air conditioning systems, doors and so on (this can vary by traction. On our 15x the guard looks after the passenger information system. The driver does on 170s). The driver looks after the operational side of things and comms with Network Rail but I am available to assist as required.

It is very unusual at my TOC for there to be any issues between driver and guard whilst sorting things out. Guards help new drivers, drivers help new guards.

 

[starlightEXPRESS]

Before they went DOO on Southern all 377s and 455s between Dorking and Horsham had to have a Guard who would simply join and leave the train at Dorking station. However i remember there were a few occasions where a Guard did not turn up and the train had to terminate and restart at Dorking instead. Similarly on all 377s and 455s between Leatherhead and Guildford a Guard would simply join and leave the train at Leatherhead station. Again on a few occasions a Guard did not turn up so the train would have to be diverted to Dorking instead so that it did not just sit at Leatherhead and block the line.

I don't think this is correct, I'm afraid. The guards were based at Epsom and joined the trains there. The train operated DOO as far as Dorking and the guard was supposed to fulfil an OBS-type role (ticket checks etc) until then. From Dorking southwards, the guard took charge of the train as would be expected.

Generally services to and from Horsham pass at Dorking, so if a guard were to leave a northbound train there, they would have about an hour's wait until the next service south.

 

[capitalconnect]

I don't think this is correct, I'm afraid. The guards were based at Epsom and joined the trains there. The train operated DOO as far as Dorking and the guard was supposed to fulfil an OBS-type role (ticket checks etc) until then. From Dorking southwards, the guard took charge of the train as would be expected.

Generally services to and from Horsham pass at Dorking, so if a guard were to leave a northbound train there, they would have about an hour's wait until the next service south.

Maybe that was the case with some of the services but certainly not all. I definitely remember seeing Guards waiting on the platform at Dorking and then boarding the Southbound train there. Similarly i have also seen Guards leave a Northbound train at Dorking too. They may have remained onboard on certain services but certainly not all.

Also i think the Guards were based at Selhurst rather than Epsom actually. I know there are Drivers based at Epsom but i do not think there has ever been any Guards based there. I spoke to many Guards on the Dorking to Horsham and Leatherhead to Guildford services and they always told me they were based at Selhurst depot.

 

[_toommm_]

I spent some time last week on a Southern Daysave. I noticed the OBS’ would open a flap, and there was just one button under the flap. Was that a bell/buzzer incase there was a PTI emergency? It didn’t looked like most of them fully observed departure so wasn’t sure.

 

[Towers]

I spent some time last week on a Southern Daysave. I noticed the OBS’ would open a flap, and there was just one button under the flap. Was that a bell/buzzer incase there was a PTI emergency? It didn’t looked like most of them fully observed departure so wasn’t sure.

Bell for the 'ten bells' method of dispatch I would presume?

 

[capitalconnect]

I spent some time last week on a Southern Daysave. I noticed the OBS’ would open a flap, and there was just one button under the flap. Was that a bell/buzzer incase there was a PTI emergency? It didn’t looked like most of them fully observed departure so wasn’t sure.

All that the OBS do at every station is open up the flap and put a key in it which prevents the driver from closing their local door while they are on the platform helping someone. They then step on to the platform to ensure their are no disabled people needing assistance and then step back on the train and remove their key. Then when the train is ready to depart the driver closes all the doors. OBS do not have anything to do with closing the doors or despatching the train. That is fully left up to the driver to do.

The 377/1 377/2 377/3 have two buttons on the panel:

• Bell (Green)
• Close Doors (Blue)

The 377/4 377/5 377/6 377/7 have three buttons on the panel:

• Bell (Green)
• Close Doors (Blue)
• Dim Lights (Yellow)

To close the local door (when being used by a Guard) they simply press the close door button a second time or switch they key to the off position after pressing the Close Doors button.

However OBS simply put their key in the switch but are not allowed to touch any of the buttons. OBS do not operate the doors. The buttons are only for when in use by Guards on the few remaining non DOO routes. Only the 377 on all Clapham Junction to Milton Keynes Central services and some (but not all) Redhill to Tonbridge services still retain Guards on them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Sep 2021 ==

Bell for the 'ten bells' method of dispatch I would presume?

No on the 377 ten bell despatch is only done when using the cab. When using the saloon the Guard closes the doors themselves and then gives two on the bell. They do not use ten bell despatch from the saloon.

 

[_toommm_]

All that the OBS do at every station is open up the flap and put a key in it which prevents the driver from closing their local door while they are on the platform helping someone. They then step on to the platform to ensure their are no disabled people needing assistance and then step back on the train and remove their key. Then when the train is ready to depart the driver closes all the doors. OBS do not have anything to do with closing the doors or despatching the train. That is fully left up to the driver to do.

The 377/1 377/2 377/3 have two buttons on the panel:

• Bell (Green)
• Close Doors (Blue)

The 377/4 377/5 377/6 377/7 have three buttons on the panel:

• Bell (Green)
• Close Doors (Blue)
• Dim Lights (Yellow)

To close the local door (when being used by a Guard) they simply press the close door button a second time or switch they key to the off position after pressing the Close Doors button.

However OBS simply put their key in the switch but are not allowed to touch any of the buttons. OBS do not operate the doors. The buttons are only for when in use by Guards on the few remaining non DOO routes. Only the 377 on all Clapham Junction to Milton Keynes Central services and some (but not all) Redhill to Tonbridge services still retain Guards on them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Sep 2021 ==


No on the 377 ten bell despatch is only done when using the cab. When using the saloon the Guard closes the doors themselves and then gives two on the bell. They do not use ten bell despatch from the saloon.

Thank you for that I didn’t want to get up and ask, but growing up and living in Northern land it intrigued me quite a bit how they do it on Southern.

 

[Towers]

Deleted - off topic!

 

[capitalconnect]

Thank you for that I didn’t want to get up and ask, but growing up and living in Northern land it intrigued me quite a bit how they do it on Southern.

No worries. Yes it is very different compared to Northern Rail and most TOCs up North who have a Guard onboard despatching the train and use the traditional Guard Open Guard Close method on all trains. Although the 171s on the London Bridge to Uckfield Line do still use the traditional method with a Guard onboard who both opens and closes the doors and despatches the train.