Current status on which routes and stock are DOO and which have Guards and what door control methods are used?

[172007]

All class 172/0/2/3 have cameras and monitors so are ready for whatever system if ever WMT 's introduce. Believe RMT have already reached a deal with driver realseas Conductor close.

 

[dk1]

Thank you for the information. I was unaware they were entirely Driver Open and Driver Close on these. So what is the degraded despatch method for? Is this in case the cameras are not working? Where are the door panels for this on the 720/745/755 trains as i certainly do not remember seeing any Guards panels? Also in normal operation do the 720/745/755 trains still have a second person onboard but just not dealing with the doors or despatch?

A guard MUST be provided on the following routes:-

Norwich-Great Yarmouth/Sheringham/Lowestoft/Ipswich/Stansted.
Ipswich-Felixstowe/Lowestoft/Cambridge/Peterborough.
Manningtree-Harwich Town
Colchester-Clacton/Walton (not Colchester Town)
Marks Tey-Sudbury

In addition:-

Norwich to Liverpool St services formed of class 745 stock MUST have a guard throughout.

In the event no guard is available, class 720/755 units booked with a guard may operate DOO Stansted-Ely & Liverpool St-Ipswich but one should be provided at the earliest opportunity.

Guard panels on Stadler stock are provided at points within the train as well as driving cabs. They can only close doors, not release.

 

[ComUtoR]

The attached image may help.

 

[Horizon22]

How confusing! I would have thought all drivers would be allowed to drive DOO! I am guessing that the drivers that have been there longer have contracts that still require Guards but the newer drivers contracts include DOO? On the services that go between London and Worcester and Hereford does the Guard join and leave the train at Oxford if it is driven by a driver who is allowed to drive DOO? Or do they still stay onboard to and from London?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2021 ==

It’s only the Oxford and Bedwyn terminators that are usually DOO. Worcester / Hereford services will have a TM throughout to/from Paddington. And yes you’re pretty much spot on regarding contracts.

 

[Carlisle]

Fwiw, most of the monitors at Irish Rail stations are a relatively new addition. In the past they were quite content to rely on drivers looking back down the train.

I remember monitors on the DART lines & mirrors on the Cobh branch around 20 years ago, albeit not on every station

 

[tiptoptaff]

Minor correction - GWR Turbos are Driver open, Guard close, on all guarded routes now.

 

[Carlisle]

Minor correction - GWR Turbos are Driver open, Guard close, on all guarded routes now.

Why have the GWR Turbos been fitted with bodyside cameras given DCO hasn’t been expanded outside of the historic routes equipped with platform monitors & mirrors etc .?

 

[tiptoptaff]

Why have the GWR Turbos been fitted with bodyside cameras given DCO hasn’t been expanded outside of the historic routes equipped with platform monitors & mirrors etc .?

The cameras aren't connected to anything, yet

 

[Carlisle]

The cameras aren't connected to anything, yet

Ok thanks.

 

[craigybagel]

I remember monitors on the DART lines & mirrors on the Cobh branch around 20 years ago, albeit not on every station

Hence why I said "most".

Even today, the screens are tiny compared to the huge bank of monitors you get at a UK DOO station, and similarly where mirrors are fitted they're much smaller than their British counterparts.

 

[Galvanize]

Slight difference to the Southern 377s.
Correct in the sense they are normally Driver Open, Guard Closes if the Guard is working from the Vestibule Panel, but if they are working the Train from the Cab, it’s 10 Bell Dispatch.

 

[Carlisle]

Hence why I said "most".

Even today, the screens are massive compared to the huge bank of monitors you get at a UK DOO station, and similarly where mirrors are fitted they're much smaller than their British counterparts.

Similarly small mirrors & monitors were used on the Tyne & Wear metro for a considerable time but have since been upgraded.

 

[Dfatcontroller]

All Scotrail diesels are guard worked. 318s, 320s 334s and 380s are driver worked and 385s are guard worked

Diesels are Guard open/close.
318, 320, 334 are Driver open/close.
380 and 385 are either Driver open/close or Driver open Guard close depending on route.

 

[Towers]

Hi all, newbie here!

First post; just thought I'd clarify the GWR Class 80x situation. These can only run DOO where they call exclusively at staffed stations, as they require to be dispatched. Drivers are not permitted to self dispatch as the bodyside cameras are yet to meet the required standards. That essentially means just Pad - Oxford/Banbury as DOO, as well as the Pad - Reading portion of the Bedwyn services. Reading - Bedwyn is guard operated on 80x, but DOO if a Turbo is used.

Regarding drivers, the old High Speed Services (HSS) drivers (essentially ex HST men) do not operate DOO, all others are now on a standard contract which allows it where required ('West' are yet to see any DOO operations, 'LTV' do lots of it).

HTH!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The older UIC coaching stock that used this system had inwards-opening doors that were fitted with automatic closers that activated above a very low speed - a passenger would have had to deliberately open the door towards themselves while fighting the closer mechanism unless the train was within a few seconds of stopping anyway.

Power-operated doors on new carriages and units can be released by the driver per the UIC system but the doors will not actually open until the train has stopped moving.

This isn't quite the UIC/RIC standard, at least not on traditional LHCS. It is however usual for units to work as you describe, and 373s may well do.

There are two standard systems - "door blocking" (Tuerblockierung/bloquage des portes) and closure pressure (not sure of the official name for this). These are, traditionally, completely independent of one another, and I have been on rolling stock which has only one of the two (both ways round), e.g. some older German compartment LHCS still about in the 90s had heavy wraparound slamdoors with door blocking, and some other UIC stock (can't recall exactly where I've used it) has the folding doors with autoclosers (which mostly open outwards) but a metal handle instead of the usual orange plastic and no "door blocking".

The two systems work thus:

"Door blocking" kicks in when the coach is going at above 5km/h and releases when it goes below that. It disconnects the internal handle from the door opening mechanism, you can hear it engaging with a click. The external handle works and can still be used.

The autocloser uses air pressure to push the doors closed when the guard turns their key in one of the UIC key "locks" by the doors. It is as you say very difficult if not impossible to open a door against this because of the leverage, however if the door is open it's very easy to hold it open against the pressure. The system isn't fully airtight, so the pressure leaks away after about 10-20 seconds and the door can be opened again unless the door blocking has kicked in by then.

There is no "sidedness" of either of these systems, and nor can anyone manually release (or not release) them. What you tend to find happens is that if a train stops away from a station the guard will go to a door and repeatedly turn their key in order to keep the doors closed.

These systems have been around for quite a while, and were much safer than BR's "nothing at all" approach for many years, though they are now a bit dated.

Some operators, including DB and SBB, have modified these systems for increased safety. DB's system, called Tb0 (Tuerblockierung 0km/h), has modified the closure air lines so the pressure doesn't leak away after the guard turns their key, and I believe so pressure is applied automatically periodically when locked. The driver then presses a button to release it when they stop at a station (or sometimes a bit before, because the regular door blocking stops the handle being used anyway). SBB's system applies closure pressure automatically every 30 seconds or so, which sometimes annoyingly means a delay in being able to exit at a station if it's just kicked in; I'm not clear if this needs a manual release by the driver or not. More recently SBB have modified some of their "fresh air" UIC coaches to remove the old mechanism and add pushbutton, electric operation to these doors instead, though it is still not "handed", i.e. both sides are released.

1980s and 1990s sliding door UIC/RIC LHCS such as Eurofima coaches actually work in the same sort of way despite the sliding doors. Units tend to use a different system (even quite old S-Bahn units) with "handed" release by the driver.

We now return you to UK units (I'd stick this in a different thread but there isn't really a discussion from it)

 

[43066]

Finally i am sure i heard something about the RMT being unhappy about the EMR 360s too? Are these now operating DOO on some journeys?

The dispute is around the number of TMs carried when the units (which have no gangway doors) run in multiple. No DOO. Drivers don’t touch the door controls unless they’re prepping the units.

 

[capitalconnect]

It was covered in the SWR DOO strike thread but in effect the guards working 701 will effectively have a similar role as OBS’, at stations they’ll provide passenger assistance, and whilst the train is moving they will provide customer assistance and be provided with a TfL RID (revenue inspection device).

Desiro stock does have door buttons on the drivers desk but they’re not live currently. I’m unsure on 458s

Many thanks for the information. That makes sense. Will the 701s still have Guards panels for the Guard to put their key in to stop their local door from closing just like the SN OBS do on the 377s trains? Otherwise i imagine it will be very easy for the Guard to get left behind when assisting a passenger?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Aug 2021 ==

All class 172/0/2/3 have cameras and monitors so are ready for whatever system if ever WMT 's introduce. Believe RMT have already reached a deal with driver realseas Conductor close.

That is interesting to hear. I never realised they had any cameras on them. I suppose it makes it easier in case they ever need to run DOO in the future.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Aug 2021 ==

A guard MUST be provided on the following routes:-

Norwich-Great Yarmouth/Sheringham/Lowestoft/Ipswich/Stansted.
Ipswich-Felixstowe/Lowestoft/Cambridge/Peterborough.
Manningtree-Harwich Town
Colchester-Clacton/Walton (not Colchester Town)
Marks Tey-Sudbury

In addition:-

Norwich to Liverpool St services formed of class 745 stock MUST have a guard throughout.

In the event no guard is available, class 720/755 units booked with a guard may operate DOO Stansted-Ely & Liverpool St-Ipswich but one should be provided at the earliest opportunity.

Guard panels on Stadler stock are provided at points within the train as well as driving cabs. They can only close doors, not release.

Many thanks for the information. That is very helpful to know.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Aug 2021 ==

The attached image may help.

That is a very helpful map. Interesting how DOO is so centered on the South East area with hardly any of it elsewhere.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Aug 2021 ==

It’s only the Oxford and Bedwyn terminators that are usually DOO. Worcester / Hereford services will have a TM throughout to/from Paddington. And yes you’re pretty much spot on regarding contracts.

That reminds me of a similar situation before Southern got rid of Guards where the 377s had to have a Guard all along the BML to and from London if they originated from any East Coastway or West Coastway stations but if they originated from Brighton they could run DOO.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Aug 2021 ==

I remember monitors on the DART lines & mirrors on the Cobh branch around 20 years ago, albeit not on every station

I am guessing that it was probably stations with curved platforms where they were first installed where it would be harder to pop your head out the window and see the full length of the train.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Aug 2021 ==

Minor correction - GWR Turbos are Driver open, Guard close, on all guarded routes now.

Is this just when the Guard operates from the saloon though? I think that it is still ten bell despatch when operating from the cab? Unless they have installed Guards panels in the cabs too?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Aug 2021 ==

Why have the GWR Turbos been fitted with bodyside cameras given DCO hasn’t been expanded outside of the historic routes equipped with platform monitors & mirrors etc .?

Perhaps so they can get rid of the platform monitors and mirrors on the routes where 165s and 166s run DOO.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Aug 2021 ==

Slight difference to the Southern 377s.
Correct in the sense they are normally Driver Open, Guard Closes if the Guard is working from the Vestibule Panel, but if they are working the Train from the Cab, it’s 10 Bell Dispatch.

I have always found it very strange how the 375s and 377s are Driver Open Guard Close from the saloon but ten bell despatch from the cab. It makes no sense as the Guards panels in the cabs on these trains are even more advanced than the saloon panels and have door release buttons and door close buttons. So it makes no sense why they use the ten bell despatch method instead of just pressing the door close buttons.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Aug 2021 ==

Diesels are Guard open/close.
318, 320, 334 are Driver open/close.
380 and 385 are either Driver open/close or Driver open Guard close depending on route.

Many thanks for the information.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Aug 2021 ==

Hi all, newbie here!

First post; just thought I'd clarify the GWR Class 80x situation. These can only run DOO where they call exclusively at staffed stations, as they require to be dispatched. Drivers are not permitted to self dispatch as the bodyside cameras are yet to meet the required standards. That essentially means just Pad - Oxford/Banbury as DOO, as well as the Pad - Reading portion of the Bedwyn services. Reading - Bedwyn is guard operated on 80x, but DOO if a Turbo is used.

Regarding drivers, the old High Speed Services (HSS) drivers (essentially ex HST men) do not operate DOO, all others are now on a standard contract which allows it where required ('West' are yet to see any DOO operations, 'LTV' do lots of it).

HTH!

Very surprised to hear that such new trains do not have cameras that meet the required standards.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Aug 2021 ==

The dispute is around the number of TMs carried when the units (which have no gangway doors) run in multiple. No DOO. Drivers don’t touch the door controls unless they’re prepping the units.

Many thanks. That explains it. I was wondering what the dispute was about. So i am presuming they are unhappy about 12 coach 360+360+360 formations as this will mean there will always be one unit without any staff in it. On the EMR 180s is it Driver Open Guard Close or Guard Open Guard Close currently? I know the 180s at FHT and GC and GWR were all Driver Open Guard Close but when the 180s were at Northern Rail they used the Guard Open Guard Close method so just wondering what method EMR are using?

 

[43066]

Many thanks. That explains it. I was wondering what the dispute was about. So i am presuming they are unhappy about 12 coach 360+360+360 formations as this will mean there will always be one unit without any staff in it. On the EMR 180s is it Driver Open Guard Close or Guard Open Guard Close currently? I know the 180s at FHT and GC and GWR were all Driver Open Guard Close but when the 180s were at Northern Rail they used the Guard Open Guard Close method so just wondering what method EMR are using?

They’re unhappy with any unit not having a guard on it, albeit 8 car 360s have been running since May so to some extent the argument has already been lost!

The driver doesn’t actually count as a staff member for these purposes as they are perfectly within their rights to not leave their cab and ask for a line block for the TM to move between units via the ballast to deal with passcoms and egresses.

I’m sure a sensible compromise will be reached eventually. 180s no longer operate in multiple and again drivers don’t touch the door controls is my understanding.

 

[LowLevel]

EMR 180s are standard driver release, guard close.
EMR 170s are guard release and close, they use manual guard operated selective door operation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Regarding the Stourbridge Shuttle, I believe all the traincrew are trained to both drive and guard. However when I've used it one has been acting in one role and one in the other, sometimes swapping over at the other end. One DOOing and one sat there doing nowt is a new one on me, I suspect that was an unofficial arrangement between them.

I must admit I don't get why it has two crew at all, to be honest. It's shorter than your average bus, and like a bus has only one set of doors. Of all the trains that could be alleged to be less safe if they were DOO that isn't one of them. If it was in an airport it wouldn't have *any* crew!

 

[43066]

EMR 180s are standard driver release, guard close.
EMR 170s are guard release and close, they use manual guard operated selective door operation.

Drivers are releasing on 180s? Are you sure about that?! Genuinely curious.

Standard for EMR intercity drivers is not to touch the doors at all, they authorise release on 222s, but that’s it.

 

[godfreycomplex]

Is this just when the Guard operates from the saloon though? I think that it is still ten bell despatch when operating from the cab? Unless they have installed Guards panels in the cabs too?

I believe at the same time the saloon panels were installed a modification was made to the door controls on the bulkhead adjacent to the cab door so that they were useable by the guard without a drivers’ key in the desk (similarly to how 365s were dispatched when being guard operated)

 

[RichardKing]

Thank you. That explains it. I was wondering what happened as Pevensey Bay and Normans Bay and Winchelsea all require the Guard to release the doors on four coach units (i think the Driver can only do SDO for the front one coach only so that works for Three Oaks and Doleham only).

AFAIK the Guard opens the doors at all stations with short platforms. At Three Oaks and Doleham, he/she will release the doors from the panel in the front coach.

 

[capitalconnect]

AFAIK the Guard opens the doors at all stations with short platforms. At Three Oaks and Doleham, he/she will release the doors from the panel in the front coach.

That must have changed recently. I know that the Driver definitely released the doors at Doleham and Three Oaks last time i was there. As the Guard did not even have the panel open when the doors were released.

I know on the 171s the Driver can do SDO for the front one coach only but not for the front three coaches which is why the Guard has to release the doors at Normans Bay and Pevensey Bay and Winchelsea stations.

But perhaps now that the Guard has to release the doors at Normans Bay and Pevensey Bay and Winchelsea they have also transferred the responsibility of releasing the doors to the Guard at Doleham and Three Oaks too.

 

[Ashley Hill]

GWR Turbos are no longer 10 bell dispatch. The driver releases (boo) but the guard shuts the doors from either the rear cab or saloon controls, whichever convenient and then gives 2 to go.

 

[RichardKing]

That must have changed recently. I know that the Driver definitely released the doors at Doleham and Three Oaks last time i was there. As the Guard did not even have the panel open when the doors were released.

I know on the 171s the Driver can do SDO for the front one coach only but not for the front three coaches which is why the Guard has to release the doors at Normans Bay and Pevensey Bay and Winchelsea stations.

But perhaps now that the Guard has to release the doors at Normans Bay and Pevensey Bay and Winchelsea they have also transferred the responsibility of releasing the doors to the Guard at Doleham and Three Oaks too.

Hmm, I might be wrong on this, but I was under the impression that 171s used door deselect instead of SDO. Door deselect requires the Guard to release the doors.

However, this may have changed so you could very well be right.

 

[LowLevel]

Drivers are releasing on 180s? Are you sure about that?! Genuinely curious.

Standard for EMR intercity drivers is not to touch the doors at all, they authorise release on 222s, but that’s it.

Yeah - it was agreed after some discussion as a comparatively short term measure to avoid the time and cost of modifying the units.

 

[craigybagel]

Yeah - it was agreed after some discussion as a comparatively short term measure to avoid the time and cost of modifying the units.

As built, 180s were designed so that only the driver could release the doors. When Northern briefly had a few units, some kind of bodge job was arranged so that the guards could release the doors but I believe the leasing company that owned the fleet wasn't too impressed and those mods were removed after Northern finished with them.

It matches up with the 390s from the same manufacturer and era that has no way for the guard to give door release either.

 

[Towers]

Drivers are releasing on 180s? Are you sure about that?! Genuinely curious.

Standard for EMR intercity drivers is not to touch the doors at all, they authorise release on 222s, but that’s it.

When they worked on FGW metals, the 180s had one of the most unusual door release procedures of them all; it might even have been unique? The driver would stop the train, and send a buzzer code to the guard. If the guard was happy that the train had stopped in the correct position they would return the code, and the driver would release the doors. Supposedly this kept the unions happy that the guard was still effectively in charge of door release. I'd be interested to know if that has ever been used elsewhere?

 

[43066]

Yeah - it was agreed after some discussion as a comparatively short term measure to avoid the time and cost of modifying the units.

Thanks, interesting. I suppose there might be an older agreement for driver open/guard close dating back to the 170s being used on IC services?

Out of interest, what’s the arrangement with 170s on the local side?