Cycle spaces on trains

[Ken H]

VTWC offer them until 5 minutes before departure from the boarding station. There is no excuse for other TOCs not doing the same.

where do you put them on a 390?

 

[Bletchleyite]

where do you put them on a 390?

In the van area at the nose end (coach A) which is otherwise useless space as, as per the regs when they were built, it wasn't permitted to use that space for passengers (it's the kitchen at the other end). But it doesn't really overly matter, because if reservations are compulsory you don't need to mark them, which means you can accept them at any time - the 5 minute thing is I believe just to stop people charging down to platforms too quickly with bikes, taking people out as they go.

I would be happy with compulsory bike reservations even at a nominal fee (up to about a fiver) provided they could be made, as per VTWC, up to 5 minutes before departure, and they are available from ALL points of sale as a mandatory part of selling rail tickets, be they reservation capable TVMs like the new Northern ones, Web sales points, ticket offices or a dedicated mobile app for selling them without tickets.

I also think they should not be permitted at peak times in the direction of peak flow, but they mostly aren't anyway. Perhaps the few TOCs that don't do this should start doing so - perhaps it could be a nationally consistent system of not being permitted arriving in a list of major cities before say 1000 nor departing them between say 1630-1900. Another way of doing it would be that if an Anytime ticket is required then bicycles are not allowed.

Finally, there should be no tip-up seats in spaces dedicated for other purposes, be that bicycles, luggage, prams, wheelchairs or whatever. They just cause conflict, and if the train is busy it's better used as standing space anyway.

 

[Comstock]

I'd be willing to pay child fare for my bike, but requiring me to have a reservation just to go between Burton and Derby seems excessive.

 

[Mojo]

I also think they should not be permitted at peak times in the direction of peak flow, but they mostly aren't anyway. Perhaps the few TOCs that don't do this should start doing so

Seems fair in principle, however some trains such as Voyagers, Pendolinos (as you mention), IEPs, HSTs, 225s, certain types of Sprinters, and so on, have a dedicated space which is not really usable for standing capacity and doesn’t contain any tipup seats, so there is no real reason to ban bikes at peak times from these trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Seems fair in principle, however some trains such as Voyagers, Pendolinos (as you mention), IEPs, HSTs, 225s, certain types of Sprinters, and so on, have a dedicated space which is not really usable for standing capacity and doesn’t contain any tipup seats, so there is no real reason to ban bikes at peak times from these trains.

Fair point re anything with a van area, you could I suppose have exceptions.

 

[Bikeman78]

Surely if you can use your bike to commute you can go without using the train? If not, don't take the bike with you and walk to your destination.
Ban bikes on the services which are regularly busy, such as commuter services in the peaks. 100s of commuters trying to get to seats on the train won't want to be stuck behind a bike - advise those using bikes to travel in the off-peak.

-Peter

Clearly having bikes on rush hour trains is not practical. Lots of Dutch people have two bikes, one at each end of their train journey. Bike storage at most UK stations needs to be improved. For example Whittlesford has far more bikes than space to park them. They are attached railings and lamp posts all over the place.

 

[Peter C]

Clearly having bikes on rush hour trains is not practical. Lots of Dutch people have two bikes, one at each end of their train journey. Bike storage at most UK stations needs to be improved. For example Whittlesford has far more bikes than space to park them. They are attached railings and lamp posts all over the place.

Definitely.
We could potentially encourage people to do the Dutch system, but that's more effort and cost than just advising people to not travel on peak-time trains with bikes!
Kingham station has a bike storage thing and it is never used to its full capacity. Oxford, where people are known worldwide for riding bikes, does not have a station with proper bike storage facilities to meet the number of bikes which use trains!

-Peter

 

[Alanko]

They pay their way in the form of their tickets, much like anyone else who brings an item of large luggage - which is what bikes effectively are. Are you going to start charging to reserve a space for a large suitcase?

That sounds good to me. Large luggage and bikes inconvenience the vast majority of passengers fairly equally.

It effectively does. If you're going to ban them on any service, it'll be the best timed ones for commuters which are therefore the busiest, meaning therefore people will not be able to commute by bike.

Again, I'm fine with this. If it means I never need to share a train with some sweaty middle-aged man in lycra, who has almost pegged out trying to set some sort of Strava Best, then clanked their racing machine off the back of my legs repeatedly... I'm all for it. Bimbling to work on a bike is one thing, but the egomania and oblivious self-centered attitude of your typical pedaling commuter is off the charts. Trying to squeeze yet another bike onto a busy train is further proof of this.

 

[mailbyrail]

In the past I've taken my bike everywhere from Penzance to Inverness as well as into London, both for leisure and commuting. It was easy when there was plenty of luggage space, then there was much less space but plenty of tolerance and flexibility. Now there's no space, no flexibility and very little tolerance by other passengers, train crew or certainly not train companies. The chances of making a journey with a cycle that involves more than two trains are now so small that I've given up even considering the idea. The car gets a run out every time the bike is going somewhere that it's not actually being ridden

 

[stj]

I think a lot is down to the attitude of the Cyclist.Some of them think they can ride them how they want and take them on a train how they want.I have been on trains where the Cycle spaces have been empty yet cycles are blocking doors and even on seats.

 

[Comstock]

To be honest the biggest issue I have is knowing in advance how busy a train will or won't be. I caught a rush hour service last night (without bike) and there would still have been loads of room. Conversely on a Sunday afternoon, which traditionally would have been a quiet time, I've felt pretty bad for taking up valuable space.

Some sort of app showing quieter and busier services ought to be feasible.

 

[al78]

Again, I'm fine with this. If it means I never need to share a train with some sweaty middle-aged man in lycra, who has almost pegged out trying to set some sort of Strava Best, then clanked their racing machine off the back of my legs repeatedly... I'm all for it. Bimbling to work on a bike is one thing, but the egomania and oblivious self-centered attitude of your typical pedaling commuter is off the charts. Trying to squeeze yet another bike onto a busy train is further proof of this.

Anyone who responds like this can safely be ignored, because that isn't a constructive discussion, it is an irrational stereotypical (can't be arsed to think, so throw out negative Daily Mail type BS) rant at an outgroup they don't like, and we have far too much of that BS in society as it is.

 

[Ken H]

Clearly having bikes on rush hour trains is not practical. Lots of Dutch people have two bikes, one at each end of their train journey. Bike storage at most UK stations needs to be improved. For example Whittlesford has far more bikes than space to park them. They are attached railings and lamp posts all over the place.

but then defining a busy train is difficult. I have caught a mid morning train from settle that was full and standing

again I caught a barrow - manc Airport train about lunchtime. 2 car 158, people standing in the vestibules. And loads waiting at carnforth and lancaster. Some with large cases as they were flying on holiday, I suppose.

Our trains are too short to cope with all the passengers, never mind large bulky objects like bikes. We need a debate at national level about having enough trains for the traffic, whether that includes bikes, and who pays for such provision.

 

[Fiyero]

They pay their way in the form of their tickets, much like anyone else who brings an item of large luggage - which is what bikes effectively are. Are you going to start charging to reserve a space for a large suitcase?

I agree bikes should be restricted to reservation only. But I don't think you should charge for that reservation, and I also believe those kinds of reservations should be available a lot closer to the time of departure than currently.

I think that should be a thing too, or at least better organisation. I got a train recently and the door to platform on both sides at one end of the carriage was totally blocked with a pile of suitcases. Glad there wasn't an emergency!

 

[Ken H]

I think that should be a thing too, or at least better organisation. I got a train recently and the door to platform on both sides at one end of the carriage was totally blocked with a pile of suitcases. Glad there wasn't an emergency!

if Squeezy jet and Ryanair can charge for large luggage, why cant TOC's?

I saw a family (2 parents, 2 teenage girls) with 4 behemoth wheely cases waiting at Lancaster go get on a busy 2 car 158. How should the railway cope with that?

 

[Comstock]

but then defining a busy train is difficult. I have caught a mid morning train from settle that was full and standing

again I caught a barrow - manc Airport train about lunchtime. 2 car 158, people standing in the vestibules. And loads waiting at carnforth and lancaster. Some with large cases as they were flying on holiday, I suppose.

Our trains are too short to cope with all the passengers, never mind large bulky objects like bikes. We need a debate at national level about having enough trains for the traffic, whether that includes bikes, and who pays for such provision.

I agree with pretty much all of this. Some rush hour services are fine and any off peak train can suddenly become crowded with disruption elsewhere on the network or a big event like a football match.

Like I say, I'd be prepared to pay child fare but in return I'd expect reasonable provision for my bike, in effect for it to be a fare paying customer.

 

[Spartacus]

For many cyclists compulsory reservations are almost as good as a ban because if you're returning from anywhere by train with your bike you're unlikely to be certain which train you'll be catching.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For many cyclists compulsory reservations are almost as good as a ban because if you're returning from anywhere by train with your bike you're unlikely to be certain which train you'll be catching.

Only if you can't book up to the time of travel, which there's no case not to allow.

 

[Spartacus]

Only if you can't book up to the time of travel, which there's no case not to allow.

Quite, but too often you're expected to book the day before.

 

[Meerkat]

Commuters can have two bikes, or a folding bike if their destination isn’t consistent.
Bikes are just incompatible with modern railways. Far more inconvenient, awkward, slow, and painful than luggage when wheeled around stations and in and out of doors. And if they aren’t in vestibules they are a muddy nuisance, particularly on services where the doors open on different sides at different stations.
I agree that bike parking provision needs to be massively improved but someone has to cover the cost, both the capital cost and the lost parking or retail revenue.

 

[Spartacus]

Commuters can have two bikes, or a folding bike if their destination isn’t consistent.

I agree that bike parking provision needs to be massively improved but someone has to cover the cost, both the capital cost and the lost parking or retail revenue.

How about someone covering the cost of someone's second bike, especially given the rates of bike theft now?

 

[Meerkat]

Does someone cover the cost of a commuters bus fare?

 

[Wychwood93]

How many people who have commented on this have actually used a bike as part of their rail commute? I used to do that, retired rail staff now, taking my bike on the train when I needed to. Most of the time the ride to the station (Christchurch) and leaving the bike there - vandalised a couple of times until I had a key to one of the rooms on the platform - but, when working in Eastleigh, I took the bike with me due to the nature of the train service. Sometimes it was easy to make a suitable connection but rarely did the timetables at the time make it convenient in both directions! As was pointed out in #32 above, there is a lot of bike crime around - general vandalism, as has happened to me - quick release removed, wheel stomped in, at the station. My youngest had her bike stolen from the CCTV area at Christchurch station three years ago - one of five taken out at the same time, witnessed by a taxi driver who didn't want to get involved. CCTV images were, shall we say, not really up to being 'proper images'. I broadly agree that the way things are now - limited cycle space - does make it hard for those of us who do not drive. For those who do, the majority, many have turned to using their car rather than the healthier option. When I did commute with my bike it was the heady days of 442s with the 'parcels' area and ditto for assorted CIGs, VEPs etc. Loads more bikes on trains in those days!

 

[yorkie]

Personally, and I do not ride a bike, but I am perfectly alright with people taking a bike on an off-peak train, but peak services are a no-no.

I'm unsure what you classify as "peak", but from York to London the trains that are not valid with an off peak ticket will have more spare seats and plenty of space in the DVT for bikes.

Also, if a service is known to be busy, the TOC should post information about this around stations which the service calls at and tell people that bikes may not be able to be carried on said train.

Why single out bikes? If you continue to allow large suitcases, that would mean anyone who simply puts their bike in a bike box would get around it. I am not sure you have a lot of real world experience and/or have really thought your proposals through. I would suggest that any radical proposals go in Speculative Ideas too.

...Cyclists also should know that they need to get to the station before the train arrives, as should anyone travelling with luggage...

Surely anyone should plan to do this, but whether it's fair to say that people with large luggage can no longer use a service as a 'turn up and go' service on that basis is questionable. But also few people commence their overall journeys at places like Paddington and often come from somewhere further afield. Delays to connecting services can occur.

...BR didnt bite the nettle - they should have banned bikes from sprinters as soon as they arrived....

I'm not surprised that this is your view. I do not agree with you.

 

[ashkeba]

Bikes are just incompatible with modern railways.

And yet they seem to be OK in neighbouring countries.

Far more inconvenient, awkward, slow, and painful than luggage when wheeled around stations and in and out of doors.

They need not be but British stations are almost as hostile to bikes as people with reduced mobility: few escalators, lifts that are slow/small/both, and a bizarre inability to install wheeling ramps correctly on stairs - Cambridge is particularly bad, with them installed on the wrong sides, directly under the hand rails (hope your bike is short and narrow!) and with sides high enough to trash the derailleurs common on bikes in Britain.

And if they aren’t in vestibules they are a muddy nuisance,

Not all bikes are muddy MTBs.

I agree that bike parking provision needs to be massively improved but someone has to cover the cost, both the capital cost and the lost parking or retail revenue.

Fund it by selling the car parking which won't be needed any more!

 

[Sweetjesus]

For the greater good, bikes should be allowed on any train service during off peak if there's a space.

It would be inconvenient for a lot of people but to make any meaningful changes, a change should be made even if it's inconvenient then we can talk about making it convenient later - e.g. ordering a rolling stock with a storage for bikes.

 

[The Ham]

I agree with the premise, and personally I agree with having bike spaces on trains. But playing devil's advocate: if bikes weren't allow on trains, it would make space for more seats or standing room. If two cyclists are removed from a train (and start driving instead), but four extra walking passengers board (who were previously driving), the total number of cars on the road falls.

Obviously this is a very simplistic argument, but you get the idea.

Maybe, but we shouldn't be running many train services which are so tight on capacity that this should be an issue.

 

[The Ham]

So presumably the argument about freeing up space for more passengers would apply to people with prams / pushchairs and naturally anyone with more than hand luggage, and I’ve not mentioned wheelchairs! What exactly is the purpose of a train then?

Provision should be made on all trains for the number of passengers travelling, along with their children, luggage, bicycles, pushchairs and mobility aids. Trains aren’t big enough, well then we need longer and more accommodating trains. The purpose of the railways is to carry people and their accoutrements comfortably, safely and efficiently, and if we are to reduce greenhouse emissions, has to persuade anyone making journeys that the train is an attractive (if less convenient) to the car. After all the railway is a public service (just like water, gas electricity etc) supported by government.

Indeed, if trains are so busy that there's more than a dozen people standing then chances are there's a market for another 20 or so people if an extra coach was provided.

 

[The Ham]

I'd argue that wheelchairs, pushchairs and (to a certain extent) luggage are essentials in a way that bikes aren't.

OK, I've got a toddler on my bike rather than a buggy as it's 2 miles at each end, does that then mean that my bike is now essential?

Anyway there should be more space on trains in general.

 

[The Ham]

All well and good saying that, but the reality is that the infrastructure imposes limits on this as the cost of lengthening platforms etc. is prohibitive. This is the reason why we are seeing less seating on newer trains (certainly in south east commuter land).

Wheelchairs and pushchairs are essential for users to get around, bikes are not (hence many TOCs ban non-folding bikes in the peaks).

Let's take the example of SWR, if Crossrail 2 was built then there would be quite a bit more capacity for everyone. Mostly this would be taken up by passengers, however it would probably enable the cycle ban which covers some fairly rural stations (Hook and Winchfeild where there's other villages within 3 miles) to be removed from the cycle ban area.

If you are able to run 8tph out of Waterloo, you'll attract a lot of extra passengers and given the account SWT was paying the government it probably wouldn't take all that long for them to pay back a good chunk of the build costs.

If we are going to ban cycles from trains then we need to have a minimum standard for the number of cycle spaces at stations, maybe 1 per 25,000 users with surveys carried out ever few years and if there's more than 80% of the spaces full then a further 25% above the number recorded need to be provided.

Given that you can fit a lot of cycle parking into the space of a few car parking spaces, more if it's double height, but with every 5 cycles likely to be bringing in more income (even allowing for parking charges) than each car what's it matter if you lose a few car drivers from the rail network. However in reality as you provide better cycle facilities you are likely to see existing users switch from their car to cycling.

Especially given that most people would save more in car parking charges (even if they kept the car for other reasons) then it would cost them to buy a brand new bike every year (as an example my local station an annual parking ticket wouldn't get you much change from a thousand pounds).