Cyclists.....using the tracks as a short cut.

[carriageline]

Calling me stupid is low, you don't know the situations I have been in with cyclists, the cold sweats they have left me in when I have been within inches of killing them, where they have cost me over £400 of car bills.

I see far more dangerous driving from cyclists, than I do drivers. Infact, I have had 1 accidents and 2 near misses due to cyclists, in the last 2 months alone.

One of them left me very, very out of pocket, and all the cyclist just said sorry and rode off, without even stopping. I was absolutely furious, my car was paralysed, and he rode off and gave me a sarcy sorry.

I have also, on a fair few occasions very, very nearly hit a cyclist who jumped a completely dead red light, me being precarious after the first incident stopped it happening (its a daily occurrence to be honest) You should never have to be careful when passing a green traffic light, at a not particularly busy junction.

I never see car drivers jump red lights the same way as I see a lot of cyclists do it. Yes, a lot of drivers are inconsiderate and pushy in London, I'm neutral to it after doing it every day, but I have never been close to killing a car driver, through absolutely no fault of my own.

Of course, I am not naive, and don't think all cyclists are bad. But my own experience, I see more bad than good.

 

[90019]

There is no doubt that there are both bad drivers and bad cyclists, but in my experience, as someone who spends his working day on the roads of Edinburgh, asa proportion of the total number, there are easily more bad cyclists than bad drivers.

I'd guess that a big part of it is that you can just decide you want to cycle, go buy a bike and ride about on the roads with no formal training whatsoever.

I find it startling the number of cyclists I see who appear to actually have a death wish - those who will quite happily ride up the inside of a large vehicle turning left, those with headphones on with absolutely no clue of anything going on around them, those who sail straight through red lights into traffic, and so on. Sometimes I wonder if these people have no sense of self preservation whatsoever.

What does always amaze me is the ability of a single cyclist to take up two lanes of a four lane road simply by cycling right right down the middle of the two lanes, meaning that if you're driving anything large and there's traffic coming the other way, there is no way to safely pass on either side.
It's a regular sight on certain roads in the city to see a bus stuck behind a cyclist dawdling along with absolutely no clue that the bus is right behind them.

I very nearly killed a cyclist on friday with a bus - he was cycling along the pavement, not particularly fast, and with no warning whatsoever, without looking he swerved out into the road in front of me, just as we were coming to a traffic island, then cycled off down the road probably with no idea that I'd had to brake quite hard to avoid going straight into him.



And before anyone says it, no I'm not anti cyclist - as that would mean I'm anti-me.

 

[jon0844]

then cycled off down the road probably with no idea that I'd had to brake quite hard to avoid going straight into him.

Another extremely good point here.

For all the idiot motorists that could potentially kill a cyclist, many cyclists are actually saved from their stupid actions by motorists that do actually save their lives every single day.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Not in London, the centre in particular. If the same percentage of motorists broke the law as cyclists, we'd have thousands more deaths every year, if not every day.

....Cyclists simply ignore red lights full stop and are therefore far more of a risk, and still pretty dangerous to a pedestrian.

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't government back a Boris Johnson plan to allow cyclists in London to pass a red light if they are turning left? (to decrease the number of cyclists being killed by buses and lorries turning left)

 

[90019]

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't government back a Boris Johnson plan to allow cyclists in London to pass a red light if they are turning left? (to decrease the number of cyclists being killed by buses and lorries turning left)

How about training cyclists to not pass on the left of large vehicles, and at traffic lights to either go in front or stay behind them, rather than sitting next to them?

 

[jon0844]

How about just training cyclists full stop?

Not with a test and license, but a compulsory course that will hopefully reduce dangerous riding and also highlight the laws to the occasional cyclists that I do believe are not even aware of any rules applying to them.

I did cycling proficiency at junior school and even that was more than a lot of people get now.

 

[90019]

How about just training cyclists full stop?

Not with a test and license, but a compulsory course that will hopefully reduce dangerous riding and also highlight the laws to the occasional cyclists that I do believe are not even aware of any rules applying to them.

I totally agree - there should be some sort of compulsory training for cyclists. Perhaps along the lines of the CBT for motorbikes?

I did cycling proficiency at junior school and even that was more than a lot of people get now.

I did that too - is it actually still going?

 

[jon0844]

(Cycling proficiency) is it actually still going?

If it is, I am sure it will be something that is down to the school and I bet many kids wouldn't be interested. Not that we were forced to do it either (for a start, you brought your own bike to school that day so no bike - no course) and in my case, we're talking around 1983/4 so it probably doesn't exist anyway.

I do accept that many people don't know they're breaking the law (you can say that's no excuse, but it's fact nonetheless) but many obviously do and just show contempt.. rather like those who fare evade if given a chance and don't see it as a big deal. Another reason perhaps why it's such a problem in London where everyone is in more of a rush and can be extremely nasty to others because you can become so disconnected.

But if you can just educate a sizable percentage, you'd still make a difference and you could begin to make bad cycling more anti-social and unacceptable.

Personally, I'd like to see cyclists not riding at speed on pavements, by doorways of shops (people have been seriously injured and nearly killed by this) and not jumping lights at crossings. If they wish to try their luck with a lorry or bus, that's less of an issue because they're likely to do less damage to the person(s) they hit.

 

[90019]

If it is, I am sure it will be something that is down to the school and I bet many kids wouldn't be interested. Not that we were forced to do it either (for a start, you brought your own bike to school that day so no bike - no course) and in my case, we're talking around 1983/4 so it probably doesn't exist anyway.

I think it must have been around 2002 or 2003 that I did it.


I must admit I was pleased to hear that the Police were out in Edinburgh a week or two back with a checkpoint at the side of a road for cyclists rather than cars for a change - not that I'm against them doing it for cars, far from it. But it would be nice to see a few more checks being done for bicycles, along with more cyclists actually being stopped for breaking the law (something I've only seen happen once in the past year).

 

[jon0844]

City of London police do stop cyclists from time to time and issue fixed penalties.

What's amazing, given that the press often attend and film, is how many cyclists can't see the police and those that do still break the law - then moan on camera after. The 'shouldn't they be out catching rapists and murderers' types.

 

[455driver]

I did cycling proficiency at junior school and even that was more than a lot of people get now.

My 10 year old son has just done a similar thing in school, of course it had a really posh name!

 

[GearJammer]

The simple problem is identification..... when cycling there is none, when driving you have to have a registration number.

Theres no incentive for cyclists to ride legally, they know as well as everyone else the chances of them getting caught are virtually zero... take the incidences at traffic lights, if a car blatantly jumps a red light the fine etc comes through the post, won't happen to a cyclist coz nobody knows who the cyclist is!

If cycling was policed the same way motoring was then i suspect there standards would rise somewhat and they'd pay a bit more attention to what there doing!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

How about training cyclists to not pass on the left of large vehicles, and at traffic lights to either go in front or stay behind them, rather than sitting next to them?

...Because it could never be the fault of the motorist of course....:roll:

How about just training cyclists full stop?

Not with a test and license, but a compulsory course that will hopefully reduce dangerous riding and also highlight the laws to the occasional cyclists that I do believe are not even aware of any rules applying to them....

I don't think that would be practical. The Police already catch motorists with no license or insurance yet these are already compulsory, why would a cycling course be any different?

The simple problem is identification..... when cycling there is none, when driving you have to have a registration number.

Theres no incentive for cyclists to ride legally, they know as well as everyone else the chances of them getting caught are virtually zero... take the incidences at traffic lights, if a car blatantly jumps a red light the fine etc comes through the post, won't happen to a cyclist coz nobody knows who the cyclist is!

If cycling was policed the same way motoring was then i suspect there standards would rise somewhat and they'd pay a bit more attention to what there doing!

More cyclists would take more care, but riding illegally would still happen, just as some/many motorists break the law still.

 

[185]

I see far more dangerous driving from cyclists, than I do drivers. Infact, I have had 1 accidents and 2 near misses due to cyclists, in the last 2 months alone.

This argument is done to death in most newspaper comments sections between one side and the other, and infact the real truth is society has become dumber. And dumber. And dumber. The US film Idiocracy is a good indication of how a society will become so dumb, it eventually runs soft drinks through the water supply and the planet's crops fail.

Bad taxi drivers = Bad car drivers = bad bus drivers = bad cyclists = bad pedestrians. All to blame.

Back on topic, the Penryndeudraeth works which I am aware of are in the middle of the very narrow bridge, and as mentioned, the diversion around is a long, long way.

 

[Antman]

How about just training cyclists full stop?

Not with a test and license, but a compulsory course that will hopefully reduce dangerous riding and also highlight the laws to the occasional cyclists that I do believe are not even aware of any rules applying to them.

I did cycling proficiency at junior school and even that was more than a lot of people get now.

And who is going to pay for it? How would it be enforced? There are thousands of motorists driving without insurance etc

 

[jon0844]

Why is it that any discussion about cyclists breaking the law always has to have justification of illegal activity on the basis that motorists can break laws too? And?

Is it the equivalent of Godwin's Law?

What motorists do is irrelevant. Certainly they don't go through red lights at pedestrian crossings, drive on pavements, generally short cut the wrong way down one way streets or creep across junctions.

Simply acknowledging the problems would be a start. Why don't people want to do that?

 

[Antman]

Why is it that any discussion about cyclists breaking the law always has to have justification of illegal activity on the basis that motorists can break laws too? And?

Is it the equivalent of Godwin's Law?

What motorists do is irrelevant. Certainly they don't go through red lights at pedestrian crossings, drive on pavements, generally short cut the wrong way down one way streets or creep across junctions.

Simply acknowledging the problems would be a start. Why don't people want to do that?

Really? I've seen motorists do all the things you mentioned.

 

[carriageline]

Really? I've seen motorists do all the things you mentioned.

The problem I think, is the frequency. I have seen drivers jump red lights as they change, yet I see people who ride up to the lights, and go straight through them, despite them being red for the last 10 seconds. Don't think I have ever seen anyone ever do that, apart from people on bikes. And it's a common occurrence.

 

[90019]

...Because it could never be the fault of the motorist of course....:roll:

At what point did I say that?

If something larger does stop next to a cyclist, then is it totally beyond the realms of comprehension that a cyclist could move a bit to get out of the way of the potential danger?
Cyclists need to have their share of responsibility, it's not all in the hands of other road users.


I encounter a lot of cyclists during my working day, and the apparent lack of even basic common sense is actually quite worrying. A lot of our buses have a red sign on the nearside of the rear window with "DO NOT pass on the left" written on them, around a little image of a bike. It's quite a normal occurrence to be waiting at a set of traffic lights, even with your left indicator on, to have a cyclist suddenly appear next to you, sometimes sitting next to the doors or in some cases, behind them, where they aren't at all obvious.
What gets me is that there are a few junctions which can be bad for that, so I hold the bus to the left to make sure there isn't enough space - and yet there are still people who pass on the inside, even getting to the point of wheeling the bike along, running the handlebars along the bus (and there have been buses damaged by people doing this).

Even when on my bike, I've encountered some rather questionable cycling, both on and off the roads. There is no doubt in my mind that there is a significant proportion of cyclists around that are not only a danger to themselves, but to other people too, and it's a shame because it tarnishes the reputation of those who are perfectly competent cyclists.

Like driving, cycling on the roads is a privelige, not a right. While I would like to see more of a crackdown on illegal motorists, I would also like to see more enforcement of cyclists breaking the law, for their own safety as well as others. Particularly those with no lights on at night and people who run red lights without good cause (I can think of a single junction in Edinburgh where it is safer to run the red light by a few seconds if there's a large vehicle behind, to avoid a potential conflict on the other side of the junction).

More cyclists would take more care, but riding illegally would still happen, just as some/many motorists break the law still.

Ah, so since some would still break the law we shouldn't bother training cyclists?
I guess we shouldn't bother training motorists either then, since some of them break the law too.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why is it that any discussion about cyclists breaking the law always has to have justification of illegal activity on the basis that motorists can break laws too? And?

There was one campaign group that used the laughable justification that we shouldn't bother focusing on the bad stuff cyclists do because they don't cause as much damage as cars. Naturally they totally ignored the damage a bike can do to a pedestrian.

Certainly they don't go through red lights at pedestrian crossings, drive on pavements, generally short cut the wrong way down one way streets or creep across junctions.

Well, there are some that do, but they're in a small minority.

Simply acknowledging the problems would be a start. Why don't people want to do that?

Because they might have to take responsibility for their actions?

Something that some clearly don't want, as they're attempting to get the law changed so that any collision between a bike and a car, the car driver is automatically assumed to be at fault unless they can prove otherwise - which is the biggest load of bollocks I've heard in a long time.
How about finding out who was at fault first, rather than immediately assuming one side or the other?
If it does happen, then I'll be getting cameras fitted in both my cars.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Why is it that any discussion about cyclists breaking the law always has to have justification of illegal activity on the basis that motorists can break laws too? And?....

I don't seek to justify cyclist behaviour by pointing fingers, however, I do think they can be used as reason to consider that those throwing stones should not live in glass houses.

I use it on the premise that motorists are people and cyclists are, despite popular belief, people, and that some people break laws. That motorists break the law is not news, but given that motorists are supposed to have a license and insurance and an MOT and pass a test (or is it three now?) and that quite a few don't, suggests that 'law breaking cyclists' won't suddenly start obeying the law if they are legally require to undertake the same, nevermind a course on the highway code and road safety.

....Is it the equivalent of Godwin's Law?....

I guess it depends on the comparison.

....What motorists do is irrelevant....

To an extent that is true, though it does point to flaws in human nature.

....Certainly they don't go through red lights at pedestrian crossings, drive on pavements, generally short cut the wrong way down one way streets or creep across junctions....

Beg to differ, as a pedestrian crossing user on many occasions (and a School Crossing Patrol at one point), I have been witness to some of the things motorists and cyclists do, and anyone who has seen the various Police docu-soap programmes on TV will know what some drivers do (not just the 'criminals'). There are also other things some motorists do that cyclists would not (largely due to comparative speed and size).

....Simply acknowledging the problems would be a start. Why don't people want to do that?

Good question, most cyclists admit there are 'bad cyclists' (even if they won't admit they are one), not sure I could say the same of motorists.

 

[90019]

I use it on the premise that motorists are people and cyclists are, despite popular belief, people, and that some people break laws. That motorists break the law is not news, but given that motorists are supposed to have a license and insurance and an MOT and pass a test (or is it three now?) and that quite a few don't, suggests that 'law breaking cyclists' won't suddenly start obeying the law if they are legally require to undertake the same, nevermind a course on the highway code and road safety.

I think training for cyclists would be of more benefit to the totally clueless ones, rather than those who deliberately break the law.
The ones who cycle everywhere with headphones on, often on fairly knackered bikes, without a care in the world for anything that's happening around them.

Good question, most cyclists admit there are 'bad cyclists' (even if they won't admit they are one), not sure I could say the same of motorists.

There are definitely bad motorists - I could have a fair old rant about some of them.

As a proportion of the number of motorists though, it's a tiny percentage. The bad cyclists as a propertion of the total cyclists is a much higher number in my experience.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I think training for cyclists would be of more benefit to the totally clueless ones, rather than those who deliberately break the law....

As with all things, it will be of interest and use to those that care. If the driving test was optional, how many would actually take it? Based on experience with motorists, can we safely assume that all cyclists will keep up a good standard of proficiency if only required to take one course before riding on the road for years on end?

There will be some who benefit and keep on top of it ofcourse, but I really can't see that being many, in the grand scheme of things.

....The ones who cycle everywhere with headphones on, often on fairly knackered bikes, without a care in the world for anything that's happening around them....

Generalising much? Is it any more dangerous than someone in a rusting Austin Mini with the stereo on full blast, driving along without a care in the world? Okay, there aren't many rusting Austin Minis about, but you could substitute a range of cars and make the same point.

....There are definitely bad motorists - I could have a fair old rant about some of them.

As a proportion of the number of motorists though, it's a tiny percentage. The bad cyclists as a propertion of the total cyclists is a much higher number in my experience.

Define a bad motorist.

Does driving 1mph (or more) over the speed limit make you a bad motorist? Does 'creeping' at the lights make you a bad motorist? Does not indicating to turn when you can't see any other moving vehicles make you a bad motorist? Does tailgating make you a bad motorist? Does occupying the 'cyclist area' (no idea what the official term is but I'm sure you know what I mean) at a set of lights make you a bad motorist? Does pulling up alongside a cyclist at a set of lights and then indicating to turn left make you a bad motorist? I could go on, but I won't.

Based on experience, media and associated comments, comments from people I know and forum comments, these are regular occurences on Britain's road network every day and certainly not confined to 'a tiny percentage' of motorists.

 

[radamfi]

Another pet hate, is they have the cycle "boxes" at the front of the que to segregate them from the rest of the traffic at traffic lights. But some feel that is not good enough, and sit 3-4 feet in front of the traffic light, to get very nearly obliterated when they are now inside a buses turning circle.

Advanced Stop Lines are rarely used in the Netherlands and are considered substandard infrastructure. They are not particularly safe and are not a substitute for proper cycle paths. They should only be used on roads with very low flows. Almost all of the Advanced Stop Lines used in the UK are on busy roads which would almost be guaranteed to have a segregated cycle path in NL.

http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2012/02/love-london-go-slight-head-start-at-asl.html

 

[90019]

Generalising much? Is it any more dangerous than someone in a rusting Austin Mini with the stereo on full blast, driving along without a care in the world? Okay, there aren't many rusting Austin Minis about, but you could substitute a range of cars and make the same point.

To be fair, the Minis that are still around are rusty, and the rest have all rusted away.

Seriously though, while it was a bit of a generalisation, if you see someone on a bike that clearly isn't well maintained and they're riding along with headphones on, 9 times out of 10, they seem to be totally away in their own world without a clue of what's happening around them.
It's a tad worrying when you're driving an 11 tonne bus 10ft behind them with no safe opportunity to overtake as they saunter along at 3mph without the faintest idea that you're there. Sometimes I wonder if some cyclists have any sense of self preservation whatsoever, and if they even realise how vulnerable they can be on the roads.

Mind you, I'd like to see people being stopped for using headphones while cycling anyway, and definitely being stopped if using them while driving.


Excessively loud music in a vehicle so that you can't hear what's going on outside is just as bad as using headphones while driving as far as I'm concerned.

Does driving 1mph (or more) over the speed limit make you a bad motorist?

It depends very much on the situation.

Does 'creeping' at the lights make you a bad motorist?

If you mean those who stop then creep forward, then yes, particularly those who stop then drift forward across the line.
As an aside have you ever noticed how often the people who do that then don't notice the lights change?

Does not indicating to turn when you can't see any other moving vehicles make you a bad motorist?

It depends where you are - out in the middle of nowhere, probably not.
But not being able to see moving vehicles doesn't mean there's nobody about - indicators aren't just for showing your intentions to other vehicles, it's for everyone.
However, in my opinion you should use them anyway, even if you can't see anyone around, as not using them is a bad habit to get into.

Does tailgating make you a bad motorist?

Yes.

Does occupying the 'cyclist area' (no idea what the official term is but I'm sure you know what I mean) at a set of lights make you a bad motorist?

Advanced stop line.
If you pull up and stop in it deliberately, then yes, it does.
However, if the lights change as you're approaching and it isn't safe to stop at the first line because it would involve braking too hard, you are supposed to stop in the box before the ASL, as the alternative is to run the red light. When driving larger vehicles that take longer to stop, particularly buses with passengers, you do have to do this occsasionally.

Does pulling up alongside a cyclist at a set of lights and then indicating to turn left make you a bad motorist?

It depends on the situation - say you forget to indicate, or realise once stopped that you have to turn left, and then let the cyclist go before turning, that's fine in my view.
If you do it deliberately and then cut up the cyclist to turn, then it does make you a bad driver.

Based on experience, media and associated comments, comments from people I know and forum comments, these are regular occurences on Britain's road network every day and certainly not confined to 'a tiny percentage' of motorists.

When you consider the total numbers of vehicles out on the roads, and compare it to the number of people doing these things, certainly in my experience, it is a pretty small number.
My point with that part is that as a proportion of the overall numbers, there are more bad cyclists than motorists.

 

[radamfi]

When you consider the total numbers of vehicles out on the roads, and compare it to the number of people doing these things, certainly in my experience, it is a pretty small number.
My point with that part is that as a proportion of the overall numbers, there are more bad cyclists than motorists.

Because of the lack of cycle infrastructure in the UK, cycling is only done by people brave or confident enough to do it. Therefore the demographics of cycling are highly skewed towards young males, who if they were in a car would be more likely to behave recklessly. In the Netherlands, cycling is a mainstream form of transport carried out by all ages from young children to retirees. Similarly, driving in the UK is well catered for and so drivers are well represented from all ages from 17 upwards.

 

[90019]

Because of the lack of cycle infrastructure in the UK, cycling is only done by people brave or confident enough to do it.

Edinburgh isn't too bad for cycling - I think the biggest issue is that, while there are a load of off road cycle paths, quite a few of them aren't connected up, forcing people out onto the roads.


One that does bug me, though, is the A8, between Gogarburn and Newbridge. There's a shared path at the side of the road, that's separated from the road by a grass verge, and it has a better surface that the road in quite a few places. The road is a dual carriageway, with a 40mph limit at each end, but is NSL along a fair stretch of it, meaning you've got cars doing 70mph. It's realtively busy for the majority of the day.
And yet, you get people cycling along the road, rather than using the path. Fair enough, the section with the junction for the airport, you have to go down to the level of the roundabout and back up, but the rest of it is the same level as the main road.

 

[radamfi]

Edinburgh isn't too bad for cycling

It depends what you call 'not too bad'. Does Edinburgh have Dutch-standard cycle infrastructure? What is the cycle rate in Edinburgh? How does it compare with other European countries? In general, someone from an English speaking country saying that their infrastructure is 'not too bad' means that it is actually very bad.

 

[Antman]

Because of the lack of cycle infrastructure in the UK, cycling is only done by people brave or confident enough to do it. Therefore the demographics of cycling are highly skewed towards young males, who if they were in a car would be more likely to behave recklessly. In the Netherlands, cycling is a mainstream form of transport carried out by all ages from young children to retirees. Similarly, driving in the UK is well catered for and so drivers are well represented from all ages from 17 upwards.

Thats a very good point and in places in the UK where there are proper cycling facilities (Hyde Park for example) theres a wider cross section of people cycling.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....As an aside have you ever noticed how often the people who do that then don't notice the lights change?....

Too often really.

....It depends where you are - out in the middle of nowhere, probably not.
But not being able to see moving vehicles doesn't mean there's nobody about - indicators aren't just for showing your intentions to other vehicles, it's for everyone.
However, in my opinion you should use them anyway, even if you can't see anyone around, as not using them is a bad habit to get into....

The main problem, as you mention, is that not seeing things doesn't mean they are not there, even on quiet roads.

....If you pull up and stop in it deliberately, then yes, it does.
However, if the lights change as you're approaching and it isn't safe to stop at the first line because it would involve braking too hard, you are supposed to stop in the box before the ASL, as the alternative is to run the red light. When driving larger vehicles that take longer to stop, particularly buses with passengers, you do have to do this occsasionally....

Are there many lights that change so quickly that you cannot adjust your speed safely before they change from green to red? It often seems to me that people (in cars atleast) see the amber as a 'quick, get across before it goes red' indication. Buses and Lorries may have genuine cases of not being able to stop, I suppose, due to weight, etc.

....It depends on the situation - say you forget to indicate, or realise once stopped that you have to turn left, and then let the cyclist go before turning, that's fine in my view.
If you do it deliberately and then cut up the cyclist to turn, then it does make you a bad driver....

I personally don't think you should pull up alongside a cyclist anyway, but you should always be indicating before stopping, IMO.

....When you consider the total numbers of vehicles out on the roads, and compare it to the number of people doing these things, certainly in my experience, it is a pretty small number.
My point with that part is that as a proportion of the overall numbers, there are more bad cyclists than motorists.

There probably is a higher percentage of bad cyclists, but I believe the percentage of bad motorists is not good (especially considering they are alleged to have been taught to drive and been passed, in a test, as competent to do so), and possibly not that far behind the cyclists.

....I think the biggest issue is that, while there are a load of off road cycle paths, quite a few of them aren't connected up, forcing people out onto the roads.


One that does bug me, though, is the A8, between Gogarburn and Newbridge. There's a shared path at the side of the road, that's separated from the road by a grass verge, and it has a better surface that the road in quite a few places. The road is a dual carriageway, with a 40mph limit at each end, but is NSL along a fair stretch of it, meaning you've got cars doing 70mph. It's realtively busy for the majority of the day.
And yet, you get people cycling along the road, rather than using the path. Fair enough, the section with the junction for the airport, you have to go down to the level of the roundabout and back up, but the rest of it is the same level as the main road.

Don't get me started on cycle paths, anyone familiar with 'Cycle Facility of the Month' will be well aware of the pitfalls, for example.....

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pete.meg/wcc/facility-of-the-month/
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pete.meg/wcc/facility-of-the-month/November2012.htm
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pete.meg/wcc/facility-of-the-month/September2012.htm
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pete.meg/wcc/facility-of-the-month/June2012.htm
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pete.meg/wcc/facility-of-the-month/December2011.htm

And a local one from me.....

 

[90019]

It depends what you call 'not too bad'.

I was really just meaning it in the sense that there are a load of off road cycle routes around the city.

The main problem, as you mention, is that not seeing things doesn't mean they are not there, even on quiet roads.

I wish there was a simple way to do something about drivers who don't use indicators - one of the main problems being distinguishing between someone who has forgotten or made a mistake and the people who just don't bother with them.

Are there many lights that change so quickly that you cannot adjust your speed safely before they change from green to red? It often seems to me that people (in cars atleast) see the amber as a 'quick, get across before it goes red' indication. Buses and Lorries may have genuine cases of not being able to stop, I suppose, due to weight, etc.

It's rarely an issue when in a car, as you can stop pretty quickly without any problems, though there are a couple of sets of lights in Edinburgh that I'm quite wary of due to them having quite short amber phases.
Once you're driving something larger, it can become an issue, and you do occasionally have to use the ASL.

I personally don't think you should pull up alongside a cyclist anyway, but you should always be indicating before stopping, IMO.

I agree on both points.

There probably is a higher percentage of bad cyclists, but I believe the percentage of bad motorists is not good (especially considering they are alleged to have been taught to drive and been passed, in a test, as competent to do so), and possibly not that far behind the cyclists.

Don't get me wrong, there are far too many bad drivers around.
I find it amazing that some of the people on the roads have managed to obtain a licence in the first place, let alone keep it. I suppose it doesn't help that some instructors will just teach you how to pass the test and no more.

However, the amount of bad drivers around doesn't diminish the fact that there are way too many bad cyclists around too (including the one I had a close call with about three hours ago).
Really, there needs to be more focus on cracking down on both bad drivers and cyclists, rather than just using the bad behaviour of one group to try and justify not doing anything about the other.

And a local one from me.....

I've always rather liked this one which is just down the road from me.