Cyclists - your experiences on the road

[Ediswan]

Where 20 limits and lower were normal and have been for years is the Royal Parks, and in those a Byelaw applies the limit to cyclists too.

I though that, but it seems not.

Cyclists can not be prosecuted for speeding in Richmond Park, police confirm

The Metropolitan Police has confirmed that cyclists can not be prosecuted for going faster than 20mph around Richmond Park and other areas managed by Royal Parks, thus bringing an end to a long-running dispute between cyclists and police over the issue.

 

[Magdalia]

How common is cycling purely as a method of getting from A-B in the UK

In Cambridge it is very common. It has been estimated that over 3000 people per day use bikes to get to/from Addenbrookes Hospital in Cambridge either for work or hospital appointments. Cambridge railway station has a multi storey bike park with room for about 3000 cycles. The Cambridge City Centre also has hundreds if not thousands of cycle racks and usually it is quite hard to find a space. Then add in all of the students cycling to/from/between schools and colleges. Every day in Cambridge there's tens of thousands of cycle journeys purely as a method of getting from A-B.

 

[JamesT]

In Cambridge it is very common. It has been estimated that over 3000 people per day use bikes to get to/from Addenbrookes Hospital in Cambridge either for work or hospital appointments. Cambridge railway station has a multi storey bike park with room for about 3000 cycles. The Cambridge City Centre also has hundreds if not thousands of cycle racks and usually it is quite hard to find a space. Then add in all of the students cycling to/from/between schools and colleges. Every day in Cambridge there's tens of thousands of cycle journeys purely as a method of getting from A-B.

Oxford has apparently the second highest percentage of commutes by bicycle (probably after Cambridge). That's despite the infrastructure being mostly inadequate. I think the local councils have previously been worried that allocating more space to cycling will be detrimental to the high usage of buses in the city.

 

[SynthD]

I think the local councils have previously been worried that allocating more space to cycling will be detrimental to the high usage of buses in the city.

I think the councils would like to get more people off the buses, but can't make room for the (Dutch style) cycle lanes that would achieve that because of driver's feedback.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the councils would like to get more people off the buses, but can't make room for the (Dutch style) cycle lanes that would achieve that because of driver's feedback.

I think there's a view that the centre would be a lot better without the big, mucky, diesel spewing buses. I'd agree - if Oxford was in say Switzerland it'd at least have trolleybuses, but quite possibly trams. The odd "gappy" shape of Oxford with only a few main arteries would make it perfect for trams; they could run on batteries in the centre if there was a concern about attaching wire supports to historic colleges.

Trams of course can be a bit of a pain in terms of the rail grooves for cyclists, but they're also better at getting people out of cars than buses, so you could repurpose car space to bikes so they don't need to risk the rail grooves.

You could serve the whole thing with 7 radial routes (or 3 radials and an eastern loop) and need no buses at all bar the regional buses and coaches, or slightly fewer with some connecting buses.

 

[johncrossley]

Not so sure that Nederland is the promised land for cycling (I have cycled there). I picked up some material from the Dutch Cycling Embassy which seem$ to be an organisation interested in promoting sales of equipment. Several dodgy photos were used: a cycle with no brake levers*, with a coat slung over the handlebars and of course a picture of a cyclist using a telephone.

* I guess the cycle had a back-pedal brake only.

Where is it better to cycle than the Netherlands?

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

A better country might have more space and fewer cyclists. Cycling in crowded Amsterdam or Copenhagen with lots of cyclists might be unpleasant. There may be niches where cycling is good (Milton Keynes?)

Nederland has a high rate of car ownership/use, cycle travel by distance is quite a small percentage.

I certainly do not want more cyclists round where I live! People should generally be encouraged to travel less.
..
The point is that the Dutch Cycling Embassy uses pictures of people being stupid while cycling. Likewise in Copenhagen, there are angled bins by the cycle ways so riders can discard coffee-to-go cups that they were drinking from while riding!

No.more.cycling (nimby at least!)

 

[JamesT]

I think the councils would like to get more people off the buses, but can't make room for the (Dutch style) cycle lanes that would achieve that because of driver's feedback.

I think there's a view that the centre would be a lot better without the big, mucky, diesel spewing buses. I'd agree - if Oxford was in say Switzerland it'd at least have trolleybuses, but quite possibly trams. The odd "gappy" shape of Oxford with only a few main arteries would make it perfect for trams; they could run on batteries in the centre if there was a concern about attaching wire supports to historic colleges.

Trams of course can be a bit of a pain in terms of the rail grooves for cyclists, but they're also better at getting people out of cars than buses, so you could repurpose car space to bikes so they don't need to risk the rail grooves.

You could serve the whole thing with 7 radial routes (or 3 radials and an eastern loop) and need no buses at all bar the regional buses and coaches, or slightly fewer with some connecting buses.

The County Council did recently get a grant towards a fleet of 159 electric buses, hopefully that would sort much of the fumes.

There's too many bits of Oxford that just aren't wide enough to segregate out cycles from a tram system. Take Magdalen Bridge, the only route into the city centre from the East. A couple of years ago the council repainted the cycle lanes to be 2.4m wide. (Though only on the bridge itself, it narrows back down approaching the junctions at either end). This width allows for cyclists to overtake each other without having to leave the cycle lane. Unfortunately the road between the cycle lanes is now too narrow for buses to pass each other without encroaching on the cycle lane.

The Quickways scheme has been removing parking spaces on some routes to allow cycle lanes to be added, in some cases they even have rudimentary segregation. But that's only in limited areas, in much of the city there is no 'car space' to give up to cyclists.

Rather than trying to get people off the buses, the key is to reduce further the numbers who still insist on trying to drive into the city centre. I'm pinning my hopes that they'll actually implement the bus gates they've been talking about for years. If cars can't go to the centre then hopefully they won't be causing congestion for the buses which will make the buses more attractive. Then in turn less congested streets might be more attractive for cyclists, especially with the extension of 20mph limits.

 

[johncrossley]

A better country might have more space and fewer cyclists.

So are you saying that the Netherlands is the *worst* place to cycle? (!)

Nederland has a high rate of car ownership/use, cycle travel by distance is quite a small percentage.

All developed countries have a high rate of car ownership and usage. At least in the Netherlands, a significant proportion of shorter distance trips (where cycling is a viable option compared to driving) are done by bike. Would it be better if they were done by car instead?

People should generally be encouraged to travel less.

But some trips are essential. Should those trips be carried out by car?

Likewise in Copenhagen, there are angled bins by the cycle ways so riders can discard coffee-to-go cups that they were drinking from while riding!

So you would prefer people to throw their cups on the ground?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nederland has a high rate of car ownership/use, cycle travel by distance is quite a small percentage.

That's because, primarily, cycling is a short-distance mode of transport.

Rather than trying to get people off the buses, the key is to reduce further the numbers who still insist on trying to drive into the city centre. I'm pinning my hopes that they'll actually implement the bus gates they've been talking about for years. If cars can't go to the centre then hopefully they won't be causing congestion for the buses which will make the buses more attractive. Then in turn less congested streets might be more attractive for cyclists, especially with the extension of 20mph limits.

Oxford (and possibly Cambridge) are probably the only two places I could think of in the UK where a total ban on cars, or at least a residents-only restriction, inside the centre (the ring road in Cambridge, the bridges and railway station in Oxford) would seem entirely feasible in the relatively short term.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

No of course they should not throw cups on the ground. They should not drink, eat, telephone while cycling!

Plenty of people could fix their lives to travel less (I did), governments/planning could help too, instead of making travel more attractive.

I can well imagine that a crowded cycle way in Amsterdam or Copenhagen with lawless €-bikes, people eating and drinking while riding etc, would be unpleasant and dangerous.

I cycled a few times in Nederland years ago. Perhaps others have more recent experience and can make comparisons.

 

[Bletchleyite]

lawless €-bikes

<ding> I claim my £5!

I thought it was "€-bike$" though?

Why don't you try one? You might love it.

(not much need for them in NL, though, it's too flat to really need them unless elderly or disabled - I remember we got a conversion kit years ago for my grandfather's old boneshaker to help him get to his allotment in his final years in similarly-rather-flat Liverpool - it was one of those ones you put on the back wheel so was technically an illegal motorcycle but nothing was ever done about it)

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

I

<ding> I claim my £5!

I thought it was "€-bike$" though?

Why don't you try one? You might love it.

(not much need for them in NL, though, it's too flat to really need them unless elderly or disabled - I remember we got a conversion kit for my grandfather's old boneshaker to help him get to his allotment in his final years in similarly-rather-flat Liverpool)

I did try one, it tried to run off with me, terrifying. I suggest you try a fixie as quid pro quo.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I did try one, it tried to run off with me, terrifying. I suggest you try a fixie as quid pro quo.

In hilly MK my knees aren't good enough and I'm too heavy. I've ridden a single speed (not fixed) in the Netherlands though.

 

[johncrossley]

No of course they should not throw cups on the ground. They should not drink, eat, telephone while cycling!

But in the real world, people (especially kids coming home from school), will be drinking and eating. You could similarly ban cup holders from cars, but that won't stop people drinking coffee when driving.

Plenty of people could fix their lives to travel less (I did), governments/planning could help too, instead of making travel more attractive.

But, again, in the real world, most people need to get around for various reasons.

I can well imagine that a crowded cycle way in Amsterdam or Copenhagen with lawless €-bikes, people eating and drinking while riding etc, would be unpleasant and dangerous.

And how representative are those locations in those countries? It is like saying walking is undesirable everywhere because Oxford Street is crowded. Why make such a big deal out of eating and drinking when the main issue is excessive car use?

I cycled a few times in Nederland years ago. Perhaps others have more recent experience and can make comparisons.

Why don't you go to an average Dutch town and see what happens, instead of taking the extreme cases and extrapolating that to the whole country? There are literally hundreds of YouTube videos of Dutch and Danish cycling so you don't even need to leave your computer.

 

[py_megapixel]

But in the real world, people (especially kids coming home from school), will be drinking and eating. You could similarly ban cup holders from cars, but that won't stop people drinking coffee when driving.

What it might do is encourage people to precariously balance their coffee cup on the dashboard, resulting in spilling hot coffee everywhere, which would hardly be an improvement (not only for the vehicle occupants, but also in that it would distract the driver and thus endanger other road users).

 

[Techniquest]

I can barely get my water bottle out of my cage and drink from it safely while pedalling along, if I'm in an urban area especially, so how people manage to pedal away and drink coffee etc I don't know!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can barely get my water bottle out of my cage and drink from it safely while pedalling along, if I'm in an urban area especially, so how people manage to pedal away and drink coffee etc I don't know!

I find it hard to push a bike while carrying, let alone drinking, a coffee!

 

[johncrossley]

If you've got a typical Dutch bike with a crate or basket in the front you can easily take a quick drink whenever you want. If you don't have hand brakes then it is not much more difficult to take a drink out of the basket momentarily than to make a hand signal.

 

[biko]

Why don't you go to an average Dutch town and see what happens, instead of taking the extreme cases and extrapolating that to the whole country? There are literally hundreds of YouTube videos of Dutch and Danish cycling so you don't even need to leave your computer.

Indeed, Amsterdam is absolutely not representative for cycling in the Netherlands. As a Dutchman, I don’t like cycling there as it’s too busy on the paths and too many tourists don’t know what keeping right means or how to cycle in a straight line. Also the infrastructure is actually not as good as in other cities.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed, Amsterdam is absolutely not representative for cycling in the Netherlands. As a Dutchman, I don’t like cycling there as it’s too busy on the paths and too many tourists don’t know what keeping right means or how to cycle in a straight line. Also the infrastructure is actually not as good as in other cities.

Amsterdam generally isn't totally representative of the Netherlands. Den Haag is a far nicer city rather than a drug-tourism trap. Capitals often aren't. London isn't like most of the rest of the UK, and other French cities not like Paris.

 

[Bald Rick]

That's because, primarily, cycling is a short-distance mode of transport.



Oxford (and possibly Cambridge) are probably the only two places I could think of in the UK where a total ban on cars, or at least a residents-only restriction, inside the centre (the ring road in Cambridge, the bridges and railway station in Oxford) would seem entirely feasible in the relatively short term.

I’d add Brighton to that list, roughly a square km up from the coast with Palace Pier at the SE corner and Seven Dials at the NW.

In hilly MK my knees aren't good enough and I'm too heavy. I've ridden a single speed (not fixed) in the Netherlands though.

MK, hilly?? You need to get out more!

 

[Bletchleyite]

MK, hilly?? You need to get out more!

The hills are mostly artificial due to the way the Redways duck and dive over and under roads and roundabouts, but it doesn't make them any less of a barrier to cycling, particularly as they are often such that you can't take a run up at them. The MK Marathon, run on the Redways, is regarded as one of the unexpected hilly ones!

 

[Techniquest]

I find it hard to push a bike while carrying, let alone drinking, a coffee!

I'll agree with that! Plus the fact it detracts from the enjoyment of the coffee, I'd rather stop for 20 minutes or so and enjoy my coffee

Walking at a modest pace while exploring a city, then that's different! I do enjoy walking around somewhere with a coffee, quite different granted.

Since we're discussing cycling in the Netherlands, which I must confess I'm interested in, what about Denmark? Tour de France and its Danish stages certainly opened my eyes to a country I didn't know did much with cycling, and I'm certainly interested in one day going there to experience it. Not necessarily in Copenhagen itself, although if I did do that city again I'd try to make sure I timed it well enough for a visit to Tivoli Gardens too (it was closed when I went there in 2019).

I must get around to looking at the links someone provided recently on cycling in the Netherlands, including the cross-border one!

 

[johncrossley]

Since we're discussing cycling in the Netherlands, which I must confess I'm interested in, what about Denmark?

Denmark is a second rate Netherlands.

No Copenhagen, that’s not good enough

Copenhagen opened the first ‘Cycle Superhighway’ with a lot of hype last month. I was really looking forward to seeing proper images of it. But I didn’t find any. I think I know why, now that I did…

bicycledutch.wordpress.com

Copenhagen opened the first ‘Cycle Superhighway’ with a lot of hype last month. I was really looking forward to seeing proper images of it. But I didn’t find any. I think I know why, now that I did. Let’s put it plain and simple, in my opinion this cycle route is not good enough.

Is Copenhagen a City of Cyclists?

The City of Copenhagen wants to be the best cycling city in the world and calls itself “City of Cyclists”. How justified is that from a Dutch perspective?

bicycledutch.wordpress.com

The Danes sometimes boast about things that are very common in the Netherlands and overall Copenhagen lacks many things to make life better for cycling compared to many cities in The Netherlands, as I described in this post. In his excellent three-part comparison series between the UK, the Netherlands and Denmark Robert Weetman concluded: “It’s no secret that overall I’m more inspired by the Dutch approach.” It’s no secret that I am too. I was under the impression that cycling in the Danish capital is quite good for many, especially when you come from a country with little to no cycling infrastructure Copenhagen will be impressive. But it is not as convenient and as good as the cycling climate that I am used to in for instance my hometown ʼs-Hertogenbosch or my city of birth Utrecht. My trip to Copenhagen and experiencing what it feels like to cycle there has not changed my opinion. Yes, Copenhagen is a City of Cyclists, but Copenhagen is certainly not the Cycling City of the world.

The north of Belgium is arguably better than Denmark. Belgium does badly in statistics because Brussels and the French speaking area have very limited bicycle infrastructure, so doesn't get much publicity.

 

[Techniquest]

Interesting, I have to say I'm still interested to go there and have a look for myself, but surely there's other places in Denmark worth seeing/cycling in?

In that text, Utrecht is mentioned and I have been a little curious about that place since I changed trains there way back in 2013 on a Benelux InterRail adventure. If I go to the Netherlands, it would of course be on the ferry. The Metro into Rotterdam looks like a good way out of the port, and from what I could see in a driver's eye view on the Metro, at least most of the way to the port it's not too bad for cycling. Of course, I didn't see all the roads but it's on my list of things to research. As is Rotterdam for that matter, I haven't been there yet and it could be an interesting place to go exploring.

 

[johncrossley]

Interesting, I have to say I'm still interested to go there and have a look for myself, but surely there's other places in Denmark worth seeing/cycling in?

In that text, Utrecht is mentioned and I have been a little curious about that place since I changed trains there way back in 2013 on a Benelux InterRail adventure. If I go to the Netherlands, it would of course be on the ferry. The Metro into Rotterdam looks like a good way out of the port, and from what I could see in a driver's eye view on the Metro, at least most of the way to the port it's not too bad for cycling. Of course, I didn't see all the roads but it's on my list of things to research. As is Rotterdam for that matter, I haven't been there yet and it could be an interesting place to go exploring.

The Bicycle Dutch blog focusses on Utrecht and 's-Hertogenbosch (Den Bosch) because the author lives and works in those towns. But he also goes on trips to other parts of the country and hires bikes there using the OV-Fiets bike hire scheme.

If you are going to take the ferry and want to experience cycling it is easy to take your bike with you. You could cycle to Rotterdam city centre from Hoek van Holland along excellent bike paths or take it on the Metro.

 

[biko]

Amsterdam generally isn't totally representative of the Netherlands. Den Haag is a far nicer city rather than a drug-tourism trap. Capitals often aren't. London isn't like most of the rest of the UK, and other French cities not like Paris.

Certainly true. I would also recommend Utrecht as a nicer version of Amsterdam. Still canals but not swamped with tourists and much easier walkable. Also with respect to cycling, Utrecht is one of the best cities in the Netherlands, much better than Amsterdam. Also the atmosphere is a nice mix between a Dutch provincial town and a big city.

I must get around to looking at the links someone provided recently on cycling in the Netherlands, including the cross-border one!

And for good and typical examples of good cycling infrastructure and culture, also look at smaller cities outside the west of the country. Historic cities with good cycling infrastructure and planning are for example Deventer, Zwolle and Groningen. Some of these even have a modal split for cycling of more than 50% for trips starting in the city!

If you are interested in town planning as well, I can recommend Houten. It’s a sort of new town close to Utrecht and totally designed around using the bike and train for daily life. Cars need to travel around the neighbourhoods while on the bike you can get anywhere using the shortest route. The expansion of the town was built around a new railway station and they repeated the same principles in the new part. So now, Houten now consists of sort of two towns with bike as main mode of transport.

 

[johncrossley]

If you are interested in town planning as well, I can recommend Houten. It’s a sort of new town close to Utrecht and totally designed around using the bike and train for daily life. Cars need to travel around the neighbourhoods while on the bike you can get anywhere using the shortest route. The expansion of the town was built around a new railway station and they repeated the same principles in the new part. So now, Houten now consists of sort of two towns with bike as main mode of transport.

Houten is world famous and gets visits from planners across the world. On the negative side, I've heard that its proximity to the motorway means that it is easy to drive out of town and so for a lot of people it acts a dormitory town.

Almere is a much bigger new town and enjoys fully segregated cycling and bus network with several railway stations all in a line so it is always a short bike or bus ride to the nearest station.

Almere is twinned with Milton Keynes (obviously because they are the biggest new towns in their respective countries) and there is a new housing development in Milton Keynes called "The Almere"

Modern Apartments in Milton Keynes | The Almere

Discover The Almere's modern luxury apartments for young professionals in Milton Keynes. Book a viewing now for the ultimate living experience.

www.thealmere.co.uk

 

[Techniquest]

The Bicycle Dutch blog focusses on Utrecht and 's-Hertogenbosch (Den Bosch) because the author lives and works in those towns. But he also goes on trips to other parts of the country and hires bikes there using the OV-Fiets bike hire scheme.

If you are going to take the ferry and want to experience cycling it is easy to take your bike with you. You could cycle to Rotterdam city centre from Hoek van Holland along excellent bike paths or take it on the Metro.

I think it was his channel that I found a video on cycling in the Netherlands, it certainly inspired me to get over there. Not Just Bikes was another channel with some videos that encouraged me to check out the Bicycleways, which do look good. It was that same channel that I watched a video on about cycling in Copenhagen, it really is nothing like the Netherlands there. I'd feel safer cycling in London than in Copenhagen! Birmingham would be less scary in places too!

The blue and yellow bikes, they do look good and I would certainly consider using them.

You have answered a question I was pondering last year, when I was last considering cycling in the Netherlands, about taking my cycle on the Rotterdam Metro. I am very happy to hear that I can take my cycle on the Metro, although I would of course look to cycle into the city first. As you can probably tell, I have plenty to research but it is high up my list of places to go.

Incidentally, when I last looked at doing Eurostar to Amsterdam, I couldn't take a cycle on Eurostar so I lost interest in using the railway to get me to Europe. When I go, I will want to do some rural cycling and not just in the cities after all, so taking my own machine with me is critical!

And for good and typical examples of good cycling infrastructure and culture, also look at smaller cities outside the west of the country. Historic cities with good cycling infrastructure and planning are for example Deventer, Zwolle and Groningen. Some of these even have a modal split for cycling of more than 50% for trips starting in the city!

If you are interested in town planning as well, I can recommend Houten. It’s a sort of new town close to Utrecht and totally designed around using the bike and train for daily life. Cars need to travel around the neighbourhoods while on the bike you can get anywhere using the shortest route. The expansion of the town was built around a new railway station and they repeated the same principles in the new part. So now, Houten now consists of sort of two towns with bike as main mode of transport.

Groningen looks really nice to cycle in, I watched a StreetViews video filmed there and it looks absolutely incredible. I never got there on my Benelux InterRail, but now I've seen it I want to go and explore. I suspect I could spend a whole week cycling in the Netherlands and still not get all that much done.

Zwolle does look good, I've not seen a lot of it but I do remember bits of the little town at the end of a DMU branch line (as it was in 2013, it may have been electrified since then). Kampen I see it was, and my visit was way back on 12th March 2013. According to my video on YouTube, it was a pair of noisy Class 3400 DMUs:

From what I can vaguely remember, it looked a nice place too. So did Harlingen, I only had a quick look around when I was there, the priority at the time being to cover as much track as possible as well as travel on as many different trains as possible. I would need to go back and revisit I think now, 9 and a half years later.

Utrecht is firmly on my list to investigate, and I have noted that about Houten. I've also noted that from the other poster about Almere, which I have heard of but not explored.

Anyone any views on Maastricht? I stayed in that area on a railway adventure way back in 2014, and while I remember some bits of it I haven't many clear memories other than arriving with a load of snow around!