DalesRail to end - what could be done?

[Bletchleyite]

As noted in other threads Northern have allegedly confirmed that DalesRail will not run in 2023, and the trains are indeed not in the new timetable. For a service that's existed in various forms for about 50 years, this is a big loss.

On the assumption that the plan isn't to close and lift Clitheroe-Hellifield which does appear to be used by freight several times a day, could it be continued under another banner perhaps?

Would West Coast Railways be able to make it pay as a charter, perhaps once a month rather than weekly? I know the S&C First Class thing didn't work, but this has more of a unique selling point coming from Manchester/Lancashire? Obviously it'd need to cost more, but there would with a charter set be other income streams e.g. First Class upgrades and catering, or even using steam to attract custom that wouldn't get up early on a Sunday for a ride on a DMU but would for that? It was at one point a Lancashire County Council charter - it becoming a part of the Northern franchise as a pseudo-Parliamentary was more recent. I guess LCC wouldn't have the money now, but could WCRC make a profit out of a form of it?

Would it be viable for whatever organisation it is that promotes it to charter a road coach from Manchester/Preston to connect to services from Leeds somewhere convenient, so the ethos of it can continue as a nice day out from Lancashire with a ride on the S&C rather than dying completely?

 

[30907]

Possibly something like the HST service that was tried might work?
Your suggestion gets round the problem of the present service requiring 3 or 4 crews because of route knowledge and length of day.
A niche operator might be able to manage with fewer crew.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

A far more basic consideration: could it be that the target market is not going to have sufficient disposable income to make such leisure travel viable this year?

 

[Bletchleyite]

A far more basic consideration: could it be that the target market is not going to have sufficient disposable income to make such leisure travel viable this year?

It's not overly expensive. I wonder if such cheap days out may well be more attractive than more expensive ones to e.g. Alton Towers and the likes?

 

[Iskra]

It’s a tough one. On one hand, providing token services with barely any utility is a waste of resources. On the other, if a proper go of it was made running perhaps 3tpd on weekends or summer only from Manchester Victoria to Carlisle via Clitheroe and Hellifield it could well work…

The line will still be well used by railtours, but does the removal of the last passenger service even threaten those, as the view could be taken that there’s little point maintaining it to passenger standards when there’s only x trains a week?

I am of the opinion that we should either give these marginal lines a proper go, or not bother at all.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s a tough one. On one hand, providing token services with barely any utility

Not an accurate description of DalesRail at all. It's well used, being timed for a day in the hills or a day out to Carlisle.

 

[Iskra]

Not an accurate description of DalesRail at all. It's well used, being timed for a day in the hills or a day out to Carlisle.

As a hillwalker, I wouldn’t be relying on meeting a 1tpd service to get me home- especially with the current state of the railways.

I’m not sure it’s that well used, every report I’ve ever read/heard of anyone riding it has said it has been quiet.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As a hillwalker, I wouldn’t be relying on meeting a 1tpd service to get me home- especially with the current state of the railways.

Plenty do.

I’m not sure it’s that well used, every report I’ve ever read/heard of anyone riding it has said it has been quiet.

Are you thinking of the winter Lancashire Rambler, which is/was a proper "one man, dog and bicycle" affair? That said maybe its unreliability has driven people away.

Whenever I used it there was generally at least one person in each pair of seats on a double set. Not heaving but not empty either. But that was a while ago.

 

[nw1]

Could you run regular services over the Settle and Carlisle that way in peak season (weekends April-September, weekdays June-August, say)? Manchester to Carlisle via Clitheroe, with an extension of a regular Clitheroe service (which could split at Clitheroe with the rear portion forming the regular return service to Manchester)? Let's say one morning service northbound and one early evening service southbound.

Plenty do.

If it were me I would take the risk, knowing that if I absolutely had to, I could divert via Leeds if that one-a-day service was cancelled; I wouldn't be stranded.

 

[The Bear]

This is very disappointing news.
When I've seen any of the Dalesrail's in the past they've been very well loaded.
I do get the feeling over the last few years Northern have done a very good job of deterring passengers with frequent cancellations or curtailing the service at Hellifield to connect with a Leeds-Carlisle.
You've also got to remember that it's a costly headache for Northern for their crews to maintain route knowledge out of season (the same applies to WCML operators for diversions) over the Horrocksford Junction to Hellifield section as no other passenger services are booked that way.
Hopefully the Dalesrail can be reincarnated at some point by one of the charter operators.
It wouldn't be the first time one had stepped in when Northern couldn't be bothered.........


It's a travesty to think that in the early years of privatisation (when there was still a bit of BR style cooperation & common sense) that XC drivers maintained their route knowledge for WCML diversions over the S&C by being rostered to work the Dalesrail......

 

[4-SUB 4732]

If only Blackpool North sign the section, then you're pretty much out of luck.

If you could get Blackburn to take it on, you might just about be able to find a way of at least running a two-hourly extension to Hellifield on the existing services via Darwen.

But as has been said by another hiker, you don't try to walk on the basis of a train a day that, if missed, could be a disaster.

That, and we should be trying to do strange things such as making sure Blackburn and Hellifield are more regularly linked, not least because the connectivity towards Carlisle is very noble, and the same applies to connections to places such as Skipton.

 

[skyhigh]

It wouldn't be the first time one had stepped in when Northern couldn't be bothered.........

A little unfair. The issues are essentially route knowledge is hard to maintain and due to various factors passenger numbers are down. Even with the current level of subsidy the service is running at a loss and given the background of DFT-demanded budget cuts either this service is cut or something else is.

For what it's worth discussions are still underway with various regional authorities so it could be possible that this is a bit of sabre rattling looking for increased funding or some kind of compromise can be reached.

 

[70014IronDuke]

A little unfair. The issues are essentially route knowledge is hard to maintain and due to various factors passenger numbers are down. Even with the current level of subsidy the service is running at a loss and given the background of DFT-demanded budget cuts either this service is cut or something else is.

I would agree. I do write from a comfy chair far away, but I get the impression that Northern, whatever their faults, at least the Northern team responsible for the S&C/Bowland, take the service very seriously, and I get the impression this works down to the train crews as well.

For what it's worth discussions are still underway with various regional authorities so it could be possible that this is a bit of sabre rattling looking for increased funding or some kind of compromise can be reached.

That's good news. Let's hope you are correct.

It's not overly expensive. I wonder if such cheap days out may well be more attractive than more expensive ones to e.g. Alton Towers and the likes?

Good point. Possibly a very good point. Forget the MacDonald's and Fries (ugh!) - move over to retro - butties, Tizer and a flask of tea.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But as has been said by another hiker, you don't try to walk on the basis of a train a day that, if missed, could be a disaster.

You don't plan to cut one fine, certainly. But there are pubs near some of the stations, so you aim to finish a bit early and have a pint, if delayed a bit then miss the pint, unlikely you will be delayed massively unless involved in a serious accident in which case trains will be the least of your concern!

If you genuinely have no clue on timings you would do well to look up Naismith's Rule. Not being late back isn't just about trains, it's about not being benighted in the cold and dark.

Also it's not like there isn't a programme of guided walks organised alongside it.

 

[InkyScrolls]

I would agree. I do write from a comfy chair far away, but I get the impression that Northern, whatever their faults, at least the Northern team responsible for the S&C/Bowland, take the service very seriously, and I get the impression this works down to the train crews as well.

The Bowland line especially has seen drastic improvements in services in recent years.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

You don't plan to cut one fine, certainly. But there are pubs near some of the stations, so you aim to finish a bit early and have a pint, if delayed a bit then miss the pint, unlikely you will be delayed massively unless involved in a serious accident in which case trains will be the least of your concern!

If you genuinely have no clue on timings you would do well to look up Naismith's Rule. Not being late back isn't just about trains, it's about not being benighted in the cold and dark.

Also it's not like there isn't a programme of guided walks organised alongside it.

Unless there is an offer of a two-hourly service from Hellifield to Blackburn (as part of the Manchester to Clitheroe timetable) this can't, and won't, work.

 

[Ken H]

Wont there have to be a closure procedure now. Or will Northern just hire a bus between Clitheroe & Hellifield?

 

[flitwickbeds]

Wont there have to be a closure procedure now. Or will Northern just hire a bus between Clitheroe & Hellifield?

Was wondering the same!

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Was wondering the same!

Maybe a bit like Wandsworth Road to Ealing Broadway we will get an unadvertised replacement coach that people have no idea about...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unless there is an offer of a two-hourly service from Hellifield to Blackburn (as part of the Manchester to Clitheroe timetable) this can't, and won't, work.

All the passengers on it, including those doing the guided walks, disagree.

It may not suit you but there are plenty of people it does suit.

Why is it people on here like arguing that things that are actually already the case aren't feasible?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

All the passengers on it, including those doing the guided walks, disagree.

It may not suit you but there are plenty of people it does suit.

Why is it people on here like arguing that things that are actually already the case aren't feasible?

It's a bad service due to its bad frequency.

You're always the one talking about "Takt" - Takt doesn't revolve around trains which depart Blackburn to Hellifield, for example, at xx:00 then xx:51 almost 7 hours apart, and from Hellifield to Blackburn at xx:30 then xx:34 more than 7 hours apart.

It's obvious that this service is hardly right for keeping. Unless, of course, you develop it. We are carping on as a country about possibly opening Colne to Skipton which, on the face of it, is relatively useful if done right but which realistically with slightly better services from Skipton to Hellifield (e.g. 3tp2h) and a train from Blackburn to Hellifield 1tp2h would make it a worthwhile route, especially with the connections to here, there and everywhere.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Simple really - what is the collected revenue , versus the actual costs. Can it be run any cheaper.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's a bad service due to its bad frequency.

You're misunderstanding what it is for. It is basically an excursion train, possibly the only one left (up to last year) of the sort of thing mill owners used to organise to take workers out of industrial Lancashire into the hills or to the beach. It has nothing to do with Takt. It is laid on top of the regular interval (ish) service between Leeds and Carlisle.

It was a charter for most of its life, though somehow it did later become part of Northern's franchise agreement.

Takt doesn't exclude this sort of service provided the base is there as well. A German example is the Hamburg to Berchtesgaden once a day tourist IC.

You're always the one talking about "Takt" - Takt doesn't revolve around trains which depart Blackburn to Hellifield, for example, at xx:00 then xx:51 almost 7 hours apart, and from Hellifield to Blackburn at xx:30 then xx:34 more than 7 hours apart.

It's obvious that this service is hardly right for keeping. Unless, of course, you develop it. We are carping on as a country about possibly opening Colne to Skipton which, on the face of it, is relatively useful if done right but which realistically with slightly better services from Skipton to Hellifield (e.g. 3tp2h) and a train from Blackburn to Hellifield 1tp2h would make it a worthwhile route, especially with the connections to here, there and everywhere.

You develop an excursion train by advertising it better!

I am not opposed to the idea of services extending past Clitheroe more regularly and potential reopening of Gisburn and Chatburn stations, but that's not on the agenda now, but that wouldn't in any way impact what is basically a coach trip on rails.

TBH if Councils weren't so cut to the bone Lancashire County Council would probably go back to chartering it like they used to. An excursion train paid for via DfT funding was a bit odd as a concept.

Simple really - what is the collected revenue , versus the actual costs. Can it be run any cheaper.

It may well be that WCRC would be the cheapest way. Their drivers sign it, and they may be able to attract additional custom by using interesting locomotives or even steam, or selling a decent restaurant car dinner on the way home.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

You're misunderstanding what it is for. It is basically an excursion train, possibly the only one left (up to last year) of the sort of thing mill owners used to organise to take workers out of industrial Lancashire into the hills or to the beach. It has nothing to do with Takt. It is laid on top of the regular interval (ish) service between Leeds and Carlisle.

It was a charter for most of its life, though somehow it did later become part of Northern's franchise agreement.

Takt doesn't exclude this sort of service provided the base is there as well. A German example is the Hamburg to Berchtesgaden once a day tourist IC.



You develop an excursion train by advertising it better!

I am not opposed to the idea of services extending past Clitheroe more regularly and potential reopening of Gisburn and Chatburn stations, but that's not on the agenda now, but that wouldn't in any way impact what is basically a coach trip on rails.

TBH if Councils weren't so cut to the bone Lancashire County Council would probably go back to chartering it like they used to. An excursion train paid for via DfT funding was a bit odd as a concept.



It may well be that WCRC would be the cheapest way. Their drivers sign it, and they may be able to attract additional custom by using interesting locomotives or even steam, or selling a decent restaurant car dinner on the way home.

WCRC would not be the cheapest, nor would they charge the cheaper fares. The fact is, Chief Planner is right. Which depot runs it? Blackpool North only. How much does it take for them to maintain competency for two people a week to drive it on a Sunday which may not be in the working week? What is the provision for having to do route learning? Is the cost of the drivers, guards, unit and path remotely close to the farebox revenue? Almost certainly not.

Get rid, or massively increase it to make it a year-round, all-week, viable way of getting people around.

 

[bingleybong]

Does seem a shame, though I have long been amazed it runs at all. I have only ever used it once (when staying in Preston) and I had a coach to myself on a lovely summer morning.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does seem a shame, though I have long been amazed it runs at all. I have only ever used it once (when staying in Preston) and I had a coach to myself on a lovely summer morning.

Was that the DalesRail and not the Lancashire/Ribble Valley Rambler (it's been called both)? Whenever I used it it was busy, though as I said it was a while back. It kind of had a "pub after a hike" type atmosphere on the way back, a bit like you'd find somewhere like the Old Dungeon Ghyll in Langdale.

I wonder why interest has died off so much?

 

[Kite159]

Was that the DalesRail and not the Lancashire/Ribble Valley Rambler (it's been called both)? Whenever I used it it was busy, though as I said it was a while back. It kind of had a "pub after a hike" type atmosphere on the way back, a bit like you'd find somewhere like the Old Dungeon Ghyll in Langdale.

I wonder why interest has died off so much?

Probably interest dropped like a stone due to the unreliability of the service. In 2022 it probably got cancelled (or part cancelled) more times than it ran in full.

"We apologise but this train will terminate at Hellifield with the next Carlisle train being in 2 hours time, oh and that's a semifast service, the next stopper is in 4 hours time"

Or at the Carlisle end the train starting from Hellifield with the connection from Carlisle being a semifast service giving a near hour wait at Hellifield. I did it last August when it started from Hellifield and other than myself & Blind Traveller it was empty.

Wasn't there talk in one of the "restoring the railway" rounds of extending the Clitheroe trains to Hellifield.

 

[30907]

The most sensible option would be to run a service out of Blackburn King Street, timed to connect at Hellifield (or running through to Blea Moor or Appleby), and covered within a single shift; if Sunday is an issue, run on Saturday instead.
You might run two return trips - like the present winter service.

I would be inclined to run it seasonally, from February or Easter to October.

Gaining and retaining route knowledge to Hellifield could be covered by running Blackburn-Hellifield/Settle Jn-Clitheroe at the beginning/end of day (there is presently an ECS to/from Clitheroe); further afield would be more complicated and expensive.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The most sensible option would be to run a service out of Blackburn King Street, timed to connect at Hellifield (or running through to Blea Moor or Appleby), and covered within a single shift; if Sunday is an issue, run on Saturday instead.

For this "coach trip" market it needs to be direct. The winter service is genuinely hardly used.

You would, for the walkers, get away with turning it at Ribblehead.

 

[bingleybong]

Was that the DalesRail and not the Lancashire/Ribble Valley Rambler (it's been called both)?

I think it was the former as I went to Settle but was end of summer so maybe I changed at Hellifield. The last three times I have used the S&C (I have friends in Appleby) that too has been very quiet though all were off season.