DalesRail to end - what could be done?

[Philip]

This seems like a good excuse to finally extend the existing Manchester-Clitheroe northwards to Hellifield with perhaps a handful running to Carlisle.

 

[The Planner]

This seems like a good excuse to finally extend the existing Manchester-Clitheroe northwards to Hellifield with perhaps a handful running to Carlisle.

That failed in the restoring your railway bids.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That failed in the restoring your railway bids.

I think you'd only have a decent case for it if it was part of closing Bentham (the other part being diverting Blackpool-Yorkshire services to run from Lancaster or Morecambe instead).

 

[A0wen]

It's not overly expensive. I wonder if such cheap days out may well be more attractive than more expensive ones to e.g. Alton Towers and the likes?

Not really a comparable market - people don't choose a day walking in the Dales over a day at Alton Towers.

As noted in other threads Northern have allegedly confirmed that DalesRail will not run in 2023, and the trains are indeed not in the new timetable. For a service that's existed in various forms for about 50 years, this is a big loss.

On the assumption that the plan isn't to close and lift Clitheroe-Hellifield which does appear to be used by freight several times a day, could it be continued under another banner perhaps?

Would West Coast Railways be able to make it pay as a charter, perhaps once a month rather than weekly? I know the S&C First Class thing didn't work, but this has more of a unique selling point coming from Manchester/Lancashire? Obviously it'd need to cost more, but there would with a charter set be other income streams e.g. First Class upgrades and catering, or even using steam to attract custom that wouldn't get up early on a Sunday for a ride on a DMU but would for that? It was at one point a Lancashire County Council charter - it becoming a part of the Northern franchise as a pseudo-Parliamentary was more recent. I guess LCC wouldn't have the money now, but could WCRC make a profit out of a form of it?

Would it be viable for whatever organisation it is that promotes it to charter a road coach from Manchester/Preston to connect to services from Leeds somewhere convenient, so the ethos of it can continue as a nice day out from Lancashire with a ride on the S&C rather than dying completely?

If you were wanting to go from Manchester to the S&C, there are far easier ways to achieve that. A Manchester - Skipton coach is going to take ~ 2 hours non stop, which isn't dissimilar to the time taken to make the journey by train via Bradford. It'll take longer if you start stopping it at Bolton, Darwen, Blackburn and Clitheroe along the way.

This seems like a good excuse to finally extend the existing Manchester-Clitheroe northwards to Hellifield with perhaps a handful running to Carlisle.

I'm not sure it does - I can't imagine there's much, if any, demand for travel from Blackburn or Clitheroe to Carlisle.

And Manchester gets to Carlisle *far* more quickly via the WCML.

That failed in the restoring your railway bids.

And if that one can't wash it's face with a line that is already in situ, it amazes me that people seriously think Skipton - Colne, not so far from there, is a goer given it would need to be a full rebuild.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Not an accurate description of DalesRail at all. It's well used, being timed for a day in the hills or a day out to Carlisle.

Is there much call for day trips to Carlisle (a small city with little significance away from the immediate hinterland) from places like Blackburn? The hill-walking probably has more draw, at least in the summertime.

 

[A0wen]

Is there much call for day trips to Carlisle (a small city with little significance away from the immediate hinterland) from places like Blackburn? The hill-walking probably has more draw, at least in the summertime.

And if you were heading to Carlisle from Blackburn, surely it would be easier and quicker to go to Preston and up the WCML ?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

What would "deeply inefficient" BR have done ? - especially as Regional Railways emphasised on the market opportunities of inter urban and so on.

"Some hikers and maybe window gazers - very dependant on seasonality and weather " - do not think that would have gone very far in a service planning meeting. Especially with sector concentration on route infrastructure costing and attribution.

 

[yorksrob]

That failed in the restoring your railway bids.

The restoring your railway bid results aren't tablets of stone from Moses.

 

[The Planner]

The restoring your railway bid results aren't tablets of stone from Moses.

They are when it means they aren't getting any cash.

 

[yorksrob]

They are when it means they aren't getting any cash.

Different politics, different priorities could always mean a change. Afterall, this route has the golden legacy for such proposals - a working railway.

 

[Starmill]

The restoring your railway bid results aren't tablets of stone from Moses.

If a proposal for a new service in England hasn't won any funding through any of the streams on offer it isn't going to be developed. Even a new government would be unlikely to change this, because more successful projects were awarded development funding than there's capital for, so if capital were increased it would go to the other successful bidders.

Different politics, different priorities could always mean a change.

It is very unlikely that such change is coming.

 

[yorksrob]

If a proposal for a new service in England hasn't won any funding through any of the streams on offer it isn't going to be developed. Even a new government would be unlikely to change this, because more successful projects were awarded development funding than there's capital for, so if capital were increased it would go to the other successful bidders.


It is very unlikely that such change is coming.

We can only hope and agitate.

As mentioned, the route has the benefit of being in situ.

 

[Rail Ranger]

Options are being looked at for the resumption of Dales Rail in 2024.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Options are being looked at for the resumption of Dales Rail in 2024.

That's interesting. Is the assumption there that the money might be available, or that it could be made to pay?

 

[Iskra]

Options are being looked at for the resumption of Dales Rail in 2024.

Can you expand upon the source of this information please?

 

[30907]

For this "coach trip" market it needs to be direct. The winter service is genuinely hardly used.

Ideally, yes - what proportion of the market is that? Would Appleby be far enouh?

You would, for the walkers, get away with turning it at Ribblehead.

 

[Rail Ranger]

Can you expand upon the source of this information please?

Community Rail Lancashire. It's not really about money. It's about offering a reliable service.

 

[Starmill]

For this "coach trip" market it needs to be direct. The winter service is genuinely hardly used.

You would, for the walkers, get away with turning it at Ribblehead.

You could extend a Rochdale to Clitheroe service to Appleby for a trial period on summer Saturdays only if there were money for local tourism. It never really made sense to run it as an additional from Blackpool North anyway, and if it came from Rochdale that'd give a direct train from Darwen and a whole host of Greater Manchester stations which would be more business than Preston and Blackpool North could drum up. Of course that would still need a double crew from Blackburn onwards in order to detach a unit at Clitheroe to form the next one back from there, and to bring the afternoon one to Clitheroe so it'd only save a small amount. The turnaround time at Appleby would need to be kept shorter too to avoid the diagram becoming unnecessarily long from Blackburn, so it'd be going back south whenever the next suitable gap is between 15 and 60 minutes later.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Ideally, yes - what proportion of the market is that? Would Appleby be far enough?

Approximate timings for a service running to/from Appleby, using the current arrivals and departures from Clitheroe:-

• Clitheroe xx01
• Hellifield xx22
• Long Preston xx25
• Settle xx32
• Horton xx38
• Ribblehead xx46
• Dent xx55
• Garsdale xx01
• Kirkby Stephen xx13
• Appleby xx27

• Appleby xx59
• Kirkby Stephen xx11
• Garsdale xx23
• Dent xx28
• Ribblehead xx38
• Horton xx44
• Settle xx52
• Long Preston xx58
• Hellifield xx01
• Clitheroe xx23

It would appear that Appleby makes an ideal turning point if the service were the slot into the current timings. Such times would also not adversely affect the regular services to/from Leeds. If Hellifield became an official break location the West side crew could break there while a Skipton crew took the train to Appleby.

 

[Rail Ranger]

Most passengers on Dales Rail board at stations between Bamber Bridge and Clitheroe. The majority are walkers and many travel on the service regularly.

 

[Starmill]

Approximate timings for a service running to/from Appleby, using the current arrivals and departures from Clitheroe:-

• Clitheroe xx01
• Hellifield xx22
• Long Preston xx25
• Settle xx32
• Horton xx38
• Ribblehead xx46
• Dent xx55
• Garsdale xx01
• Kirkby Stephen xx13
• Appleby xx27

• Appleby xx59
• Kirkby Stephen xx11
• Garsdale xx23
• Dent xx28
• Ribblehead xx38
• Horton xx44
• Settle xx52
• Long Preston xx58
• Hellifield xx01
• Clitheroe xx23

It would appear that Appleby makes an ideal turning point if the service were the slot into the current timings. Such times would also not adversely affect the regular services to/from Leeds. If Hellifield became an official break location the West side crew could break there while a Skipton crew took the train to Appleby.

You'd have to shift at least one pair of Lancaster or Carlisle to Leeds services to fit that in around the headway every hour though.

In general their slot between Leeds and Skipton can't be changed so you'd have to split some services at Skipton.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Ideally, yes - what proportion of the market is that? Would Appleby be far enouh?

The best walking is Kirkby Stephen and stations south of*. A key issue is matching the length of walk (in terms of time) to the interval between trains. Obviously different people prefer different lengths of walk so a single out and return trip cannot suit everybody and as such it will attract fewer users. Make the interval too long and people don't really want to be sat in the Station Inn at Ribblehead for several hours after their walk (hic) just so the day trippers can have a full three hours in Carlisle.

As always frequency is the key. Using the same resources (say one unit for one shift) to provide a more frequent shuttle to Hellifield (with good and guaranteed connections) would seem to be the most attractive solution, but I accept that people do like a through train when one is offered over a connection. That generally comes down to the perceived (or encountered) risk of a missed connection.

* I do not wish to offend the Eden Valley department, Kirkby Stephen and northwards is stil pleasant countryside but I always found it difficult to fit a station-to-station or circular walk in with the S & C timetable without lots of road walking or waiting.

I've looked at the old timetable (summer 2012) when there were two Dalesrail trains. Taking Ribblehead as the example, the mix of out and return services allowed a stay of 5h 27m, 6h 8m, 7h 27m and 8h 8m. A reasonable spread, if the weather is bad, come back early, if your walk takes a bit longer you have the backstop of over 8 hours. The summer 2022 timetable had just the one service and a 7h 18m stay.

 

[norbitonflyer]

You'd have to shift at least one pair of Lancaster or Carlisle to Leeds services to fit that in around the headway every hour though.

In general their slot between Leeds and Skipton can't be changed so you'd have to split some services at Skipton.

Why not run to Hellifield and connect there into the existing S&C services? Only one extra unit instead of four

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why not run to Hellifield and connect there into the existing S&C services? Only one extra unit instead of four

Because nobody would use it (as demonstrated by the Lancashire/Ribble Valley Rambler services out of season).

DalesRail only requires 1 unit anyway, or are you talking about an all-week service which I think would be questionable in value?

 

[30907]

I've looked at the old timetable (summer 2012) when there were two Dalesrail trains.

This rather raises the question: that service had run for many years presumably by 2012 the service no longer justified two trains - what was the trend of loadings from then until the present (2018+) troubles? Were they stable or still declining? Was there an obvious untapped market then?
That might influence any future pattern.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This rather raises the question: that service had run for many years presumably by 2012 the service no longer justified two trains - what was the trend of loadings from then until the present (2018+) troubles? Were they stable or still declining? Was there an obvious untapped market then?
That might influence any future pattern.

In my experience the "middle" trains, which left Preston about an hour later and arrived back about an hour earlier, were not as well used as the "main" one, from which all the guided walks went and which gave you a decent amount of time in the hills and for a pint or two and a meal afterwards. I'm not sure they were of overall benefit other than that they offered a few more connections from further afield.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Because nobody would use it (as demonstrated by the Lancashire/Ribble Valley Rambler services out of season).

Maybe they were less used because they were out of season and/or the connection times were not very good?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe they were less used because they were out of season and/or the connection times were not very good?

The connections were fine when I used it. Out of season will have an impact, but in the end the DalesRail service is/was basically a walker's coach tour on rails. People won't make connections on that sort of thing, not least because of the high impact of making connections onto a very infrequent service at an unstaffed station with no usable taxi operation nearby, where you are utterly stuck if it's missed or cancelled without replacement, but also because the whole point of it is an easy direct journey from your local station without faffing around.

After all if you don't mind changing you can just take the Blackpool to York and change at Leeds for the S&C with far better connection options. Only railway enthusiasts would care about rare track, though admittedly it'd be two changes for people at the Ribble Valley local stations who weren't tiny (or indeed huge) in number.

Fundamentally the DalesRail was worth doing as a one-round-trip Sunday service with associated tourist attractions like the Friends staff on board and the connecting bus services and organised walks, may have been worth doing on a Saturday too at a push. An infrequent connection past Hellifield to the S&C is never going to load well.

 

[Starmill]

but also because the whole point of it is an easy direct journey from your local station without faffing around.

It was never really that good at that though either. It only fulfilled that role to people living in the Blackpool, Preston and Blackburn areas.

 

[Ken H]

It was never really that good at that though either. It only fulfilled that role to people living in the Blackpool, Preston and Blackburn areas.

pity it never ran from Manchester