DalesRail to end - what could be done?

[Bartsimho]

Would this work as an idea? A walkers express in the summer months. Starting at Birmingham New Street with catering available (Breakfast in the morning and Dinner in the Evening) calling at Wolverhampton-Stafford-Stoke-Crewe-Stockport where the service splits. One portion goes Manchester Piccadilly where it reverses stoppong then at Chinley-Edale-Hope-Bamford-Hathersage-Grindleford-Dore-Sheffield. The other portion goes Manchester Piccadilly - Manchester Oxford Road - Bolton - Clitheroe - Settle - Horton-in-Ribblesdale - Ribblehead - Dent - Garsdale - Kirkby Stephen - Carlisle

3 early morning services and 3 evening services back formed of the same units.

Edit: Forgot about Blackburn on the Settle-Carlisle half of this plan.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would this work as an idea? A walkers express in the summer months. Starting at Birmingham New Street with catering available (Breakfast in the morning and Dinner in the Evening) calling at Wolverhampton-Stafford-Stoke-Crewe-Stockport where the service splits. One portion goes Manchester Piccadilly where it reverses stoppong then at Chinley-Edale-Hope-Bamford-Hathersage-Grindleford-Dore-Sheffield. The other portion goes Manchester Piccadilly - Manchester Oxford Road - Bolton - Clitheroe - Settle - Horton-in-Ribblesdale - Ribblehead - Dent - Garsdale - Kirkby Stephen - Carlisle

3 early morning services and 3 evening services back formed of the same units.

It could well be that the likes of West Coast Railways could make something like that work (better than just shuttling between Settle and Carlisle). I'd be interested to see if they'd be willing to give it (or indeed Manchester and/or Blackpool) a try, though the fares would probably be a bit higher. DalesRail was to all intents and purposes a railtour, albeit one that ended up as a franchised service (originally it was a charter).

 

[Bald Rick]

Would this work as an idea? A walkers express in the summer months. Starting at Birmingham New Street with catering available (Breakfast in the morning and Dinner in the Evening) calling at Wolverhampton-Stafford-Stoke-Crewe-Stockport where the service splits. One portion goes Manchester Piccadilly where it reverses stoppong then at Chinley-Edale-Hope-Bamford-Hathersage-Grindleford-Dore-Sheffield. The other portion goes Manchester Piccadilly - Manchester Oxford Road - Bolton - Clitheroe - Settle - Horton-in-Ribblesdale - Ribblehead - Dent - Garsdale - Kirkby Stephen - Carlisle

3 early morning services and 3 evening services back formed of the same units.

Edit: Forgot about Blackburn on the Settle-Carlisle half of this plan.

Depends what you mean “work”.

Would it be possible? Maybe - if you could find the Paths and suitable rolling stock.

Would it be viable? Maybe - if you charged around £100 a ticket and could be sure of finding enough passengers (100+ for each train) prepared to spend that + extra for any refreshments for a 3h30 to 4h journey each way to the Yorkshire Dales.

But I’d be surprised if you Could find that many people.

 

[Bartsimho]

Depends what you mean “work”.

Would it be possible? Maybe - if you could find the Paths and suitable rolling stock.

Would it be viable? Maybe - if you charged around £100 a ticket and could be sure of finding enough passengers (100+ for each train) prepared to spend that + extra for any refreshments for a 3h30 to 4h journey each way to the Yorkshire Dales.

But I’d be surprised if you Could find that many people.

I've tried to create a Timetable which is somewhat plausible. You would probably get Class 769's as they are being converted over from their diesel variants the 319's. Have 2+2 and hopefully some comfortable seats maybe with the faux leather for easy cleaning of Mud off the seats.

BHM - SOT (46 Mins) Based on UID C72044, identity 1H09, TSC 22180014, headcode 3007 (Quicker under wires)
SOT - CRE (< 21 Mins) Based on UID C77110, identity 1K55, TSC 22277000, headcode 5155 (Quicker under wires and skipping Kidsgrove, Alsager)
CRE - SPT (< 28 Mins) Based on UID L07452, identity 1W10, TSC 25434000 (Quicker under wires and skipping Wilmslow)
SPT (5 Mins to split)

To Carlisle
SPT - DGT (< 20 Mins) Based on UID C85684, identity 1B63, TSC 11817020, headcode 6009 (Quicker under wires and skipping Deansgate and Oxford Road)
DGT - BON (< 14 Mins) Based on UID Y41332, identity 1N52, TSC 12362822, headcode 9300 (Skipping Deansgate and Salford Cresent)
BON - BBN (< 29 Mins) Based on UID C88787, identity 2B89, TSC 12242110, headcode 9598 (Skipping Hall i' th' Wood, Bromley Cross and Darwen)
BBN - CLH (< 23 Mins) Based on UID Y43182, identity 2N59, TSC 12349820, headcode 9596 (Skipping Ramsgreave & Wilpshire, Langho and Whalley)
CLH - SET (Literally no train goes this way anymore) Line Speed appears to be 30 and similar distance as Clitheroe to Blackburn so around 20 minutes maybe?
SET - CAR (< 1 Hour 39 Mins) Based on UID C90656, identity 2H10, TSC 21151900, headcode 5600 (Skipping Appleby, Langwathby, Lanzonby & Kirkoswald and Armathwaite)

Journey Time of around 5 Hours (I would guess some savings so time to Settle is 3 Hours 21 Minutes. Reach Settle at 10:00, 11:00 and 12:00 so leave at 06:30, 07:30 and 08:30

To Sheffield
SPT - MAN (8 Mins) Based on UID Y43643, identity 2S91, TSC 12226820, headcode 6174
MAN (5 Mins to reverse)
MAN - SHF (Around 1 Hour 20 Mins) Based on UID C77200, identity 1R50, TSC 22269000, headcode 9250 (Opposite direction and taking the Hope Valley Line section from Manchester Piccadilly to Chinley not the Manchester-Crewe Line and the Buxton Line)

Journey Time of Somewhere in the Region of 3 Hours 13 Minutes. Time to Chinley of around 2 Hours 45 Minutes. Leaving with the other side leaving at 06:30, 07:30 and 08:30 you arrive in Chinley at 09:15, 10:15 and 11:15

I've added UID's where I have based the speed off an existing service but I have also added extra info for skipped stops or where Electric Traction can be used while the one I have found is pathed as Diesel only.

Run them Easter Holiday, then on Weekends until Spring Bank, and after then each day until the end of the season (September).

 

[Bald Rick]

I've tried to create a Timetable which is somewhat plausible. You would probably get Class 769's as they are being converted over from their diesel variants the 319's.

I suspect you’ve created running times, not a timetable. You need to consider everything else running. For example, you can’t leave New St at 0700 - there’s a 0656 to Shrewsbury and an 0701 to Manchester in the way. And how much have you allowed for each station stop?

Even then, and taking your very first example, you’ve assumed a 769 (which struggles to get above 90, and is notoriously slow to accelerate above 70) would meet and possibly beat the running times of a Voyager (top speed 125) on sections with 125mph running.

Then who is paying for these 8 units to be owned, refurbished and maintained for half a year’s work? Sounds like a money pit to me.

 

[30907]

Blackburn to Settle is about an hour (based on the pre-Covid public timings but excluding 15min pathing/engineering), so Manchester-Settle in slightly under 2hr is possible, and that makes it reasonable for a day out in the Dales or Appleby (which surely deserves a stop!), as plenty of people have suggested.

Leaving aside practicalities, anywhere further South than (say) Macclesfield is too far for your average day trip, especially with the Peak District on the doorstep - though Stoke-Stockport-Hope Valley might have some potential.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Manchester is probably the origin that would give you most demand due to its size and because going via Leeds is roundabout enough to be a faff.

 

[Flying Claret]

Manchester is probably the origin that would give you most demand due to its size and because going via Leeds is roundabout enough to be a faff.

Possibly. But it's still a long way to go for a walk when the Peak District is literally on the doorstep.

 

[Rail Ranger]

Just reading the spring/summer issue of Ribble Valley RailNews, the journal of Ribble Valley Rail, the rail user group for the Blackburn to Hellifield line. This says that DfT have informed them that work is ongoing with Northern to run a DalesRail service in 2024. However this may have a different origin point than before, it may not travel the full length of the line to Carlisle and it may run on a different day. Presumably the "different day" may be Saturday to avoid Sunday working being voluntary. The different origin could perhaps be Manchester (Victoria?) and then possibly via Farington Junction-Lostock Hall to maintain the popular Bamber Bridge pick-up? The not running all the way to Carlisle might possibly mean terminating at Appleby? All conjecture of course and we'll have to wait and see what happens next year.

 

[507020]

Just reading the spring/summer issue of Ribble Valley RailNews, the journal of Ribble Valley Rail, the rail user group for the Blackburn to Hellifield line. This says that DfT have informed them that work is ongoing with Northern to run a DalesRail service in 2024. However this may have a different origin point than before, it may not travel the full length of the line to Carlisle and it may run on a different day. Presumably the "different day" may be Saturday to avoid Sunday working being voluntary. The different origin could perhaps be Manchester (Victoria?) and then possibly via Farington Junction-Lostock Hall to maintain the popular Bamber Bridge pick-up? The not running all the way to Carlisle might possibly mean terminating at Appleby? All conjecture of course and we'll have to wait and see what happens next year.

This would be the first passenger service to run via Farington Junction in how many years?

I didn’t particularly like Blackpool North as an origin, since it was impossible to connect anywhere with the service from Southport.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Saturday may well work better as other services start earlier to connect with it, plus people are less bothered about being back at a reasonable hour.

 

[Kite159]

If the DfT have anything to do with it, it will just be one random daily extension to a Clitheroe terminator to Hellifield and back towards Manchester ensuring there is no decent connections available at Hellifield (so arriving just behind a Carlisle/Morecambe service with a 2+ hour wait for the next train and departing just before a train from Carlisle/Morecambe arrives to say "look, we listened and ran a train between Clitheroe & Hellifield, but the average loadings is minimal so it will be a waste of taxpayers cash to continue running these trains as they cost far more than the revenue generated"

 

[Iskra]

If the DfT have anything to do with it, it will just be one random daily extension to a Clitheroe terminator to Hellifield and back towards Manchester ensuring there is no decent connections available at Hellifield (so arriving just behind a Carlisle/Morecambe service with a 2+ hour wait for the next train and departing just before a train from Carlisle/Morecambe arrives to say "look, we listened and ran a train between Clitheroe & Hellifield, but the average loadings is minimal so it will be a waste of taxpayers cash to continue running these trains as they cost far more than the revenue generated"

Linking Manchester directly with the Ribblehead area alone would probably do a decent trade (if advertised), so it wouldn't be without value. Presumably, it would have to have some form of reasonable connection for a Leeds/Skipton driver to take it onwards, as that driver would have to arrive at Hellifield somehow.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Linking Manchester directly with the Ribblehead area alone would probably do a decent trade (if advertised), so it wouldn't be without value. Presumably, it would have to have some form of reasonable connection for a Leeds/Skipton driver to take it onwards, as that driver would have to arrive at Hellifield somehow.

The "Ribble Valley Rambler" to Hellifield was a one man, dog and bicycle operation. But turning at Ribblehead would definitely get hiker custom. Could well be done by adding just one unit and crew diagram to the Clitheroes.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Apologies if this has already been asked, but will rail union decisions currently in operation affect any projected weekend running?

 

[30907]

If the DfT have anything to do with it, it will just be one random daily extension to a Clitheroe terminator to Hellifield and back towards Manchester ensuring there is no decent connections available at Hellifield

Fortunately you can't actually do that without impacting the hourly interval to/from Clitheroe, so they will have to be more creative

 

[Rail Ranger]

Saturday may well work better as other services start earlier to connect with it, plus people are less bothered about being back at a reasonable hour.

The vast majority of the regular users are retired.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I didn’t particularly like Blackpool North as an origin, since it was impossible to connect anywhere with the service from Southport.

You couldn't connect with very much at all due to the late Sunday startup of most North West services. Saturday would be far more useful.

The vast majority of the regular users are retired.

Implying they might consider a weekday? Or just that they don't care about getting back late on Sunday?

Might have a wider market on a Saturday though - families won't likely do long days out with late arrival back on a school night.

 

[Iskra]

The vast majority of the regular users are retired.

Well Saturday can work for them too, as well as workers, so it would maximise patronage.

 

[Neptune]

Regarding Saturday’s and having had a look at the unit plan this morning can anyone suggest how it is resourced?

Are we short forming or even cancelling a service elsewhere or are we looking at deferring maintenance affecting other days of the week.

Both solutions seem quite extreme for what amounts to a ramblers special which has no guarantee of filling up the seats (think of this wet summer for instance).

At least on Sundays we have the unit capacity once the crew resources are at a better level.

 

[Iskra]

Regarding Saturday’s and having had a look at the unit plan this morning can anyone suggest how it is resourced?

Are we short forming or even cancelling a service elsewhere or are we looking at deferring maintenance affecting other days of the week.

Both solutions seem quite extreme for what amounts to a ramblers special which has no guarantee of filling up the seats (think of this wet summer for instance).

At least on Sundays we have the unit capacity once the crew resources are at a better level.

Couldn’t it just be attached to a Leeds-Carlisle service at Hellifield, which would save resources on that stretch at least and by the time that unit returns from Carlisle to Ribblehead you could probably do the 2 closest of the Yorkshire 3 peaks, 1 with a visit the pub, or visit the viaduct , waterfall and pub for those wanting a less arduous day trip.

I’m not claiming to be representative, but when I agree to do a hike with a friend, we agree a date several months in advance and because we are generally quite time-pressed people we do it on that date regardless of the weather, we may just alter the route slightly or spend less time near the summit.

 

[Neptune]

Couldn’t it just be attached to a Leeds-Carlisle service at Hellifield, which would save resources on that stretch at least and by the time that unit returns from Carlisle to Ribblehead you could probably do the 2 closest of the Yorkshire 3 peaks, 1 with a visit the pub, or visit the viaduct , waterfall and pub for those wanting a less arduous day trip.

I’m not claiming to be representative, but when I agree to do a hike with a friend, we agree a date several months in advance and because we are generally quite time-pressed people we do it on that date regardless of the weather, we may just alter the route slightly or spend less time near the summit.

Doesn’t get over the issue of Saturday unit resource without short forming elsewhere or deferring essential maintenance.

The reason Sunday is useful is that there is spare unit resource.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Couldn’t it just be attached to a Leeds-Carlisle service at Hellifield, which would save resources on that stretch at least and by the time that unit returns from Carlisle to Ribblehead you could probably do the 2 closest of the Yorkshire 3 peaks, 1 with a visit the pub, or visit the viaduct , waterfall and pub for those wanting a less arduous day trip.

I’m not claiming to be representative, but when I agree to do a hike with a friend, we agree a date several months in advance and because we are generally quite time-pressed people we do it on that date regardless of the weather, we may just alter the route slightly or spend less time near the summit.

No, because non-emergency permissive working is not permitted at Hellifield.

 

[30907]

No, because non-emergency permissive working is not permitted at Hellifield.

And Leeds-Carlisle trains are booked 3 or 4 cars at relevant times.

 

[billio]

Possibly. But it's still a long way to go for a walk when the Peak District is literally on the doorstep.

Experienced walkers would relish having the option. The S&C has the advantage that you can walk more easily from station to station and by and large the hills are more rugged.
Starting these trains in Manchester is not just about walkers from Manchester, but walkers from Salford (Swinton), Bolton, Darwen, Blackburn and indirectly Burnley and Preston. Existing S&C services from Leeds pick up walkers from the intermediate stations such as Shipley, Keighley, Bingley, Skipton and Settle.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Possibly. But it's still a long way to go for a walk when the Peak District is literally on the doorstep.

I take it you're not a hillwalker. Because if you were you'd have seen lots of people from Manchester in hills other than the Peak - they all have their own qualities.