Dalwhinnie/Newtonmore - Tulloch line proposals?

[Gathursty]

The gap between these stations is relatively close for this part of Scotland. Surely there must have been some proposals to connect the West Highland Line and the Highland Main Line.

Have there ever been any proposals to put a railway through there?

 

[Clansman]

I'm surprised this hasn't cropped up more often, as I'm sure there is demand for an Inverness - Fort William link

Whether or not 20 miles of track is worth the connection though...

 

[PaulLothian]

I am fairly sure that I have read somewhere that one of the plans preceding the building of the WHL was to branch off the Highland main line in much the way you describe to reach the west coast. Not able to access my reference books just now to try to locate the source of this notion!

 

[Bald Rick]

It wouldn't be much use for Fort William to Inverness, as it is rather a long way round. If a line was built there the train would struggle to beat the coach which goes the direct route up the Great Glenn.

Incidentally the coach operates 5 x daily which is a good indication of demand between these two regional centres. There is much less between the central highlands and Fort William - indeed there is no bus service. Last time I drove the A86 from Tulloch to Dalwhinnie was peak time on a Friday evening, and there were spells of 5-10 minutes when nothing was coming the other way.

On practicality, topography is not in a prospective railway's favour. From Tulloch to the Laggan dam the ground rises 60 metres in 1.2km, which implies some serious civil engineering. Then there is 18km of hugging the side of Loch Laggan, and finding a route through the gap at Inverpattack.

Of course anything is possible...

 

[Highland37]

My understanding is that there were rival proposals to reach Inverness via the current line and also via the Great Glen. In a classic British way, the rival proposals were just that - rivals.

The Highland line proposal defeated (worked with the then landowners I think) to stymie the Fort Augustus to Inverness route. This is the one that would be more successful and useful in the present day I think.

 

[JonathanH]

It wouldn't be much use for Fort William to Inverness, as it is rather a long way round. If a line was built there the train would struggle to beat the coach which goes the direct route up the Great Glenn.

Incidentally the coach operates 5 x daily which is a good indication of demand between these two regional centres. There is much less between the central highlands and Fort William - indeed there is no bus service. Last time I drove the A86 from Tulloch to Dalwhinnie was peak time on a Friday evening, and there were spells of 5-10 minutes when nothing was coming the other way.

On practicality, topography is not in a prospective railway's favour. From Tulloch to the Laggan dam the ground rises 60 metres in 1.2km, which implies some serious civil engineering. Then there is 18km of hugging the side of Loch Laggan, and finding a route through the gap at Inverpattack.

Of course anything is possible...

To be pedantic, there is a bus service of sorts between Dalwhinnie and Fort William every Tuesday between March and November http://fisherstours.co.uk/scottish-express/

There is also a bus service part way from Newtonmore to Kinoch Laggan on schooldays but you would need a connecting taxi to make the rest of the journey to Tulloch - timing in the morning just about works as a link between the Inverness and Fort William sleepers.

 

[InOban]

The climb up to the level of Loch Laggan might have been feasible at the time, but the construction of the dam would make it even worse. Oddly enough, it is the shortest route from FW to Edinburgh.

 

[cf111]

I'm surprised this hasn't cropped up more often, as I'm sure there is demand for an Inverness - Fort William link

Whether or not 20 miles of track is worth the connection though...

I am a regular user of the no. 19/919 coaches year round and they run empty through most of the winter, so not really. It's only about 15 minutes slower down the A82 by bus than it is by car as well, the rail route via Newtonmore would be significantly slower. The majority of people in Fort William see Glasgow as their "local" city, there's a lot more there than there is in Inverness.

A line down the Great Glen via Fort Augustus would probably have been successful, a shame it never made it.

 

[Highland37]

Can't say I agree with that. I am from Fort William and most people have Inverness on their radar more than Glasgow. This is due to it being in the same local authority but also culturally in the Highlands.

The buses are quiet though and dependent on subsidy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm surprised this hasn't cropped up more often, as I'm sure there is demand for an Inverness - Fort William link

There certainly is, as there is a Citylink coach service. However, I'm not sure it would be enough demand to make a railway viable.

 

[alex17595]

Was there a connecting ferry services from Fort Augustus to either the other end of Loch Ness or onto Inverness via the Caledonian Canal?

I would hazard a guess at a route via Tulloch and Newtonmore you would be looking at somewhere around 2hr15 for Fort William - Inverness. Depending on how the route would have been built.

 

[najaB]

There certainly is, as there is a Citylink coach service. However, I'm not sure it would be enough demand to make a railway viable.

Like many of these things, if the line was in existence then there would be enough traffic to support it. But there (likely) isn't enough to justify the cost of building it today. Certainly, I would prefer money be spent on upgrading/doubling the HML first.

 

[GusB]

There certainly is, as there is a Citylink coach service. However, I'm not sure it would be enough demand to make a railway viable.

That service has just had a few journeys extended to call at Raigmore Hospital and the UHI campus as well.

http://www.citylink.co.uk/media250417.php

Scottish Citylink has announced service improvements for customers in the Highlands.
The coach operator is to introduce a revised timetable from 24 April that will provide improved connections for commuters across Inverness.

The 919 timetable (Fort William to Inverness) will now provide five return journeys a day. A new direct link to both the hospital and the university from Fort William and the Great Glen will be provided by two new journeys a day allowing return commuting and student travel to Inverness from all points on the route.

 

[47271]

I've never heard of any concrete plans for this to be done.

In the here and now it's up there with Hawick-Carlisle and Dumfries-Stranraer in terms of likely passenger demand. At least those two crackpot ideas have an existing trackbed.

I'd say that there's more chance of reinstatement of Spean Bridge-Fort Augustus and a new line built up the side of Loch Ness. In other words zero chance.

 

[kylemore]

Was there a connecting ferry services from Fort Augustus to either the other end of Loch Ness or onto Inverness via the Caledonian Canal?

.

Until WW2 there was a daily MacBrayne's steamer service from Banavie near Fort William to Inverness via the Caledonian Canal and Loch Ness which indeed called at Fort Augustus. However I'm not aware if any serious effort was made to develop a connection between railway and steamer.

 

[delt1c]

I stand to be corrected , but i remember reading somewhere that the the reason the Fort Augusus "branch" was constructed was that it was intended to be extended to Inverness , but as we all know never was

 

[Maxfly]

Until WW2 there was a daily MacBrayne's steamer service from Banavie near Fort William to Inverness via the Caledonian Canal and Loch Ness which indeed called at Fort Augustus. However I'm not aware if any serious effort was made to develop a connection between railway and steamer.

Would the Banavie pier branch count or was that geared towards other uses maybe?

 

[DelW]

I'm surprised this hasn't cropped up more often, as I'm sure there is demand for an Inverness - Fort William link

Whether or not 20 miles of track is worth the connection though...

Throwing some very rough numbers at it ...

Borders line cost £300m for a similar distance but on existing formation, so maybe construction cost £400m for Tulloch - Newtonmore. Say Government/NR borrowing at 5%, so annual cost of servicing debt = £20m.

There are no on-line communities bigger than tiny villages to generate traffic, and current public transport demand on the parallel (ish) road route is 5 coaches each way per day, say very optimistic average loading 30pax each. Therefore total trips per year = 10 x 30 x 360 days = 108,000. Borrowing cost per journey = £20m / 108,000 = £185 per trip. Even assuming possible demand growth, and that fares revenue paid for the operating cost, which is unlikely, that's a huge subsidy per trip needed.

I suspect that had this line ever been built, it would have gone in the Beeching era if not before, it would have been even more of a basket case than Carmarthen - Aberystwyth (runs for cover ).

 

[Bald Rick]

Borders line cost well over £400m.

And building a formation through that country would cost a LOT more than £100m.

 

[najaB]

Borders line cost well over £400m.

The figure I've heard repeatedly was c. £350M. Where does the 'well over £400m' come from?

 

[Bald Rick]

The figure I've heard repeatedly was c. £350M. Where does the 'well over £400m' come from?

The (approx) £350m doesn't include the separately accounted land costs and other costs incurred by, for example, Transport Scotland. Also it's at 2012 prices, and not the cash prices actually incurred. (Nor the prices it would be now).

 

[EveningStar]

The Highland Railway regarded Inverness as their territory and vigorously blocked any schemes that even hinted at encroachment. They even considered building down the Great Glen to Fort William to prevent any opposition railways getting into Inverness, except that the North British were equally resolute about anybody else getting into Fort William.

The independently proposed Fort Augustus branch, as the first stage of a line up the Great Glen, threatened to destabilise this delicate balance. Predictably, the Highland viewed the line with alarm, trying everything to block construction and financially ruining the company before construction started. When this failed, they outbid the North British to operate the branch, leading to the anomalous situation of a Highland Railway operated branch physically separate from the main system. This anomaly continued for a few years until it was obvious that the Fort Augustus branch was an over-engineered financial disaster and going nowhere, at which point the Highland lost interest.

Were it not the byzantine manoeuvrings of Victorian railway companies, I am sure there would be a line up the Great Glen and, bearing in mind the Loch Ness tourist trap, would be doing very well. However, that is history for you ...

 

[Highland37]

Thanks for the information. Strong and stable eh?

 

[Deepgreen]

I imagine the construction costs of a line over virgin territory in this topography would hugely exceed that of the ex-Waverley route - say, at least £1bn, including land purchase. I cannot see any potential traffic justifying this.

 

[Highland37]

Traffic never justifies the costs. Railways cost of a lot of money and make very little. The need direct subsidy most of the time. Therefore, cost is always the weakest justification for a railway.

However, they do support lots of economic and social activity which is where the strength lies.

Norway has over 750km of tunnels and a different approach to this.

 

[Bald Rick]

Traffic never justifies the costs. Railways cost of a lot of money and make very little. The need direct subsidy most of the time. Therefore, cost is always the weakest justification for a railway.

However, they do support lots of economic and social activity which is where the strength lies.

Norway has over 750km of tunnels and a different approach to this.

But there isn't any economic activity between Tulloch and Dalwhinnie! Unless you count a few trees and sheep.

 

[class26]

But there isn't any economic activity between Tulloch and Dalwhinnie! Unless you count a few trees and sheep.

But there MIGHT be if there was a railway there

 

[DelW]

But there MIGHT be if there was a railway there

But nowhere near enough to justify the huge cost - witness current traffic levels and resulting economic activity on the Far North line, the Kyle line, and Inverness - Aberdeen.

Please note that I'm not suggesting that those lines should be closed, but if they didn't exist, they would never justify the cost of building them from scratch now.

 

[najaB]

But nowhere near enough to justify the huge cost - witness current traffic levels and resulting economic activity on the Far North line, the Kyle line, and Inverness - Aberdeen.

Please note that I'm not suggesting that those lines should be closed, but if they didn't exist, they would never justify the cost of building them from scratch now.

North of Tain, I'd agree with you on the FNL. I don't know enough about the Kyle Line to comment. Aberdeen-Inverness would be built today, just possibly not that exact route.

 

[DelW]

Aberdeen-Inverness would be built today, just possibly not that exact route.

Just personal opinion of course, but I have my doubts. Building 100+ route miles through difficult country for roughly a train every two hours each way? I think it would be difficult to make the benefit/cost ratio stack up.

Of course politics might affect it as well, if the voters of Nairn, Forres, Elgin, Keith, Huntly and Inverurie need to be kept on-side.