Dangerous boarding procedures at Euston

[Mcr Warrior]

Especially as it likes to cancel trains "due to a short notice change to the timetable", which translates to normal people as "we've cancelled it because we've cancelled it".

What do the weasel words actually mean, if not that?

 

[Kite159]

One of the issues with Euston is only having one point of entry to the platforms. Paddington & Kings Cross have the over bridge which helps spread some of the load.

Something tragic will happen one of these days with the Euston scrum, someone tripping over and getting walked over etc

 

[Hadders]

The only way you are ever going to solve the problem completely is by having a TOTAL REBUILD OF THE ENTIRE STATION and have the Concourse moved down to Platform Level and have entry to it from Euston Road being down A Slope similar in scale to the Platform Ramps Now!
This is obviously completely out of the question on any level.

A complete rebuild was scheduled to happen as part of the HS2 rebuild but that’s no longer happening.

The issue is announcing the platform just a few minutes before departure. It is possible to load a full Pendolino with passengers in 10 minutes but ask passengers if it is and they will think it isn’t. Many passengers think it’ll take 5 minutes to walk from the concourse to the platform, hence the rush.

What would it look like if you removed everything that was not structurally essential to holding the roof up?
How much circulating space is actually potentially available

Circulation space isn’t the issue at Euston. The issue is the rush or surge of passengers from the concourse to the platforms when a platform is announced with 10 minutes to go.

 

[Peter0124]

The other factor here is the changing behaviour of passengers. There seems to be less consideration of others, and a desperate rush to board even if there’s no disruption. I don’t believe everyone rushing or running is without a seat reservation, there’s just this desperation to get on for some reason, even if you’ve got a seat.

Doesn't excuse poor behaviour of passengers but do you think people who rush to board with a reservation, might be worried someone is already sat in their reserved seat and then refuses to move?

So by boarding early they reduce the chance someone is already sat there.

 

[Trainguy34]

Maybe a staggered boarding would work, where they call the front X coaches and then a few minutes later the rear.

 

[Turtle]

Rushing is just a railway thing these days with commuters. You only have to be on a platform in the central section of the Elizabeth line to see people rushing down escalators like it's a full blown fire chasing them and this with 4 mins to spare before the train arrives or having a fit because they've just missed a train and the next one is in 8mins.

It's just a commuter thing now, it's probs made worse as some say by the fact you can't see the trains at Euston till down the ramp.

"these days". Back in the 90s/early 00s, you should have seen the charge of the six hundred during the evening rush hour at Victoria when some incident caused disruption to normal platforming. The speedy manoeuvres of the Sussex Commuters would have done credit to the Light Brigade.

 

[Krokodil]

Certainly more luggage space would be positive but how do you achieve it on the maximum length trains when there's limited space to run more trains

Well I probably wouldn't cancel the plans to build infrastructure suitable for running 400m long trains at frequent intervals.

What do the weasel words actually mean, if not that?

Usually "we don't employ enough drivers and have managed to piss off those we do employ such that they don't want to come in on their days off"

Maybe a staggered boarding would work, where they call the front X coaches and then a few minutes later the rear.

In other industries you'd board First class early as a perk.

 

[williamn]

Well I probably wouldn't cancel the plans to build infrastructure suitable for running 400m long trains at frequent intervals.


Usually "we don't employ enough drivers and have managed to piss off those we do employ such that they don't want to come in on their days off"


In other industries you'd board First class early as a perk.

Which I never understand. If I’m going to be sat on a plane for ages I want to minimise my time on it, not be sat there for ages while they board it. Maybe I’m weird but a perk of ‘last minute guaranteed boarding’ would be more attractive for me. Anyway I digress…

 

[bramling]

Doesn't excuse poor behaviour of passengers but do you think people who rush to board with a reservation, might be worried someone is already sat in their reserved seat and then refuses to move?

So by boarding early they reduce the chance someone is already sat there.

I’ve always thought the rush is more to do with securing seats rather than concern about missing the train. Even with reservations people are keen to be there first to “mark their territory”.

There’s also an element of copycat behaviour. Those at the front are likely to be the ones eager to be on first, for whatever reason. Others will simply follow at the same pace.

I’ve seen it happen with lifts at a station near me. There are four lifts arranged in two pairs, one pair near the gateline, the other some way removed. Most people head for the lifts nearest the gateline, leaving the other pair largely unused. But on the rare occasions when one person goes for the far pair, crowds of others will then dash for them. Sometimes people behave in particular ways for no real reason.

 

[grinderx]

Maybe a staggered boarding would work, where they call the front X coaches and then a few minutes later the rear.

Services going via northampton to birmingham often appear overloaded. First stop is often Leighton buzzard and so standing room only for 30 minutes. Many of us know that there are seats further up and whilst I don't run I see many others that do to get ahead and further along.

After Leighton many seats are available and a big chunk continue on after northampton. It isnt unusual to have to climb over massive suitcases with half asleep travellers leaning on them. The odd behaviours are no doubt amplified by the fare system in the UK which promotes these travellers taking slower or at least illogical trains.

Find a way to reduce long distance journeys on stopping trains and part of the problem may go away. For example split services at northampton like it was 15 years ago. It is mega annoying to pay 80 quid for a travel card to find that the return service is rammed with people paying a tenner to new street.

I saw some evidence of trying to segregate passengers at Euston just before Christmas with some staff shouting at people to walk on the left. It wasn't working at all.

Truth though is that you can't change human behaviour unless you literally run it like an airline and that won't work for commuter trains.

The solution here is to divide up the passengers better. At least for lnwr I recently discovered that off peak tickets are valid in the evening. Maybe that needs changing, though it might just shift the problem around.

Avanti is a different story. I suspect mandating reservations might be the way forward at rush hour, just let passengers move their reservations without penalty.

 

[oversteer]

It’s been abysmal for the last fourteen years I’ve been commuting there and getting steadily worse.

Euston’s main problem is that it considers passengers an inconvenience; annoying sheep who have to be herded or restricted to ensure they comply with ‘the rules’.

One entity needs to take control of both main line and underground stations and make significant changes to make it easier to move about the station.

 

[Samzino]

"these days". Back in the 90s/early 00s, you should have seen the charge of the six hundred during the evening rush hour at Victoria when some incident caused disruption to normal platforming. The speedy manoeuvres of the Sussex Commuters would have done credit to the Light Brigade.

Haha true true indeed

 

[jayah]

I've experienced this issue at both Euston and Paddington. And every time it is caused by ridiculously late boarding. The inability for TOC controllers to perform set swaps these days seems a driving factor. Back in "the day" if an incoming service was coming in late, another set would be used instead. These days there is a reluctance to swap sets about, as getting a set to finish at the right depot is seen as more important than the railways raisin d'etre , the passenger.

The difference at Paddington is there is no distance, so it is more an agitated shuffle.

Euston sounds like a steeplechase including the long downhill ramps onto the platforms.

 

[DaventryRabbit]

Services going via northampton to birmingham often appear overloaded. First stop is often Leighton buzzard and so standing room only for 30 minutes. Many of us know that there are seats further up and whilst I don't run I see many others that do to get ahead and further along.

After Leighton many seats are available and a big chunk continue on after northampton. It isnt unusual to have to climb over massive suitcases with half asleep travellers leaning on them. The odd behaviours are no doubt amplified by the fare system in the UK which promotes these travellers taking slower or at least illogical trains.

Find a way to reduce long distance journeys on stopping trains and part of the problem may go away. For example split services at northampton like it was 15 years ago. It is mega annoying to pay 80 quid for a travel card to find that the return service is rammed with people paying a tenner to new street.

I saw some evidence of trying to segregate passengers at Euston just before Christmas with some staff shouting at people to walk on the left. It wasn't working at all.

Truth though is that you can't change human behaviour unless you literally run it like an airline and that won't work for commuter trains.

The solution here is to divide up the passengers better. At least for lnwr I recently discovered that off peak tickets are valid in the evening. Maybe that needs changing, though it might just shift the problem around.

Avanti is a different story. I suspect mandating reservations might be the way forward at rush hour, just let passengers move their reservations without penalty.

At the risk of going off topic, I think splitting at Northampton wouldn't completely solve the issue. There are People who would still be prepared to travel via Northampton  even if it was a 29 minute wait there. Its all down, as you say, to the ludicrously cheap LNWR Advances. Even with splitting at NMP the Fare would still be cheaper and as long as this is the case People will still do it.
 

 

[trainophile]

You can't rely on Avanti's reservations system to be working even if you have a reserved seat. Several times recently I've boarded and found all the overhead displays showing Available in the reservable coaches, and people milling around bewildered unsure whether their reservation applies or not.

If it was reliable fewer people would go into panic mode.

 

[Bartsimho]

Which I never understand. If I’m going to be sat on a plane for ages I want to minimise my time on it, not be sat there for ages while they board it. Maybe I’m weird but a perk of ‘last minute guaranteed boarding’ would be more attractive for me. Anyway I digress…

The thing is on a plane in First Class you get served Champagne in your seat which is very large, spacious and private. The Service there promotes that perk being useful as the on-board experience can be extraordinary

 

[Silenos]

I’ve always thought the rush is more to do with securing seats rather than concern about missing the train. Even with reservations people are keen to be there first to “mark their territory”.

There’s also an element of copycat behaviour. Those at the front are likely to be the ones eager to be on first, for whatever reason. Others will simply follow at the same pace.

I’ve seen it happen with lifts at a station near me. There are four lifts arranged in two pairs, one pair near the gateline, the other some way removed. Most people head for the lifts nearest the gateline, leaving the other pair largely unused. But on the rare occasions when one person goes for the far pair, crowds of others will then dash for them. Sometimes people behave in particular ways for no real reason.

In my view, people’s behaviour in boarding is not quite so irrational.

On a long train where access to the platform is at one end only, people are aware that it takes a certain amount of time to reach the other end (and most people unfamiliar with train configurations will not be too sure exactly how far they’ll have to go). Since the gate line will act as a pinch point, you will be further delayed in beginning that walk, and then held back by all the people in front of you, meaning that unless you can dodge round people, wheelie suitcases (mobile trip hazards), dogs, bikes, pushchairs etc you are going to be moving at the pace of the slowest in the crowd (probably the person looking up the details of their carriage on their mobile). This not unnaturally makes people anxious about finding their carriage in time, and desirous of being at the head of the pack.

In addition, for those travelling with luggage, many will have experienced the situation in which their bag or case does not fit into a poorly designed overhead rack, and the baggage space at the end of the carriage is wholly inadequate. Under the circumstances it would not be surprising if people were anxious to grab some of that luggage space before it all goes.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

In my view, people’s behaviour in boarding is not quite so irrational.

On a long train where access to the platform is at one end only, people are aware that it takes a certain amount of time to reach the other end (and most people unfamiliar with train configurations will not be too sure exactly how far they’ll have to go). Since the gate line will act as a pinch point, you will be further delayed in beginning that walk, and then held back by all the people in front of you, meaning that unless you can dodge round people, wheelie suitcases (mobile trip hazards), dogs, bikes, pushchairs etc you are going to be moving at the pace of the slowest in the crowd (probably the person looking up the details of their carriage on their mobile). This not unnaturally makes people anxious about finding their carriage in time, and desirous of being at the head of the pack.

In addition, for those travelling with luggage, many will have experienced the situation in which their bag or case does not fit into a poorly designed overhead rack, and the baggage space at the end of the carriage is wholly inadequate. Under the circumstances it would not be surprising if people were anxious to grab some of that luggage space before it all goes.

This is why commuters can generally board quicker as they pick the same place daily and know the train.

The luggage issue is similar to the Ryanair scrum, need to get on for space in the overhead lockers

Passenger behaviour is logical when you think about it

 

[Tester]

Which I never understand. If I’m going to be sat on a plane for ages I want to minimise my time on it, not be sat there for ages while they board it. Maybe I’m weird but a perk of ‘last minute guaranteed boarding’ would be more attractive for me. Anyway I digress…

If you're at the front of the plane you have that perk - you can board 'at your leisure'.

The point is that if you are already in the departure lounge, the front of the plane is much more ambient.

You can trust me on this

 

[Bevan Price]

One of the issues with Euston is only having one point of entry to the platforms. Paddington & Kings Cross have the over bridge which helps spread some of the load.

Something tragic will happen one of these days with the Euston scrum, someone tripping over and getting walked over etc

Queue impatience can create very dangerous situations. Coupled with police failures, it probably contributed to the horrific disaster at Hillsborough.

Even in non-disastrous circumstances. people at the back try to surge forward, those near the centre of the queue can get pushed together, barely able to control their own movements (as I have found personally in the past, in queues outside some sports grounds. )

 

[etr221]

Queue impatience can create very dangerous situations. Coupled with police failures, it probably contributed to the horrific disaster at Hillsborough.

Even in non-disastrous circumstances. people at the back try to surge forward, those near the centre of the queue can get pushed together, barely able to control their own movements (as I have found personally in the past, in queues outside some sports grounds. )

It is worth remembering the worst disaster at a London Underground station was the Bethnal Green disaster of 3rd March 1943 - before the line had happened - when someone tripped, and hundreds fell on top of them - 173 of whom died.

A reminder that safety on the railway is multifaceted - the greatest loss of life among British Railways staff and passengers did not involve a train (135 in the loss of the MV Priness Victoria, 31st January 1953); and the RSSB has now noticed - and is reacting to - that the most frequent cause of fatalities amongst colleagues is ... road accidents.

 

[Western Sunset]

You can't blame individuals in a situation/environment not of their making or in which they have no control over. Hillsborough has shown us that, as have various disasters noted above.

Suppose I arrive at Euston in good time to catch the 1243 to Liverpool. As a normal passenger/customer, I've no idea that the inbound working (0943 L'pool - Euston) is scheduled to arrive in platform 7 at 1204. All I know is that my train should leave at 1243. I'd already got my ticket, I'd arrived at Euston at midday. Can't see my train on any departure board. So I stand and wait. And wait. Nothing on the screens. It's now 1215. I don't know Euston very well, but wait in the middle of the concourse, along with everyone else. I see trains (with later departures than mine) appear on the board. No sign of mine yet. It's now 1230. Starting to get a bit anxious. I start to remember when I was a child going on a long journey, the train would be at the station way before we left. 1235 - no word that the train's been cancelled. Have I missed which platform it leaves from? 1240; getting really worried now. Suddenly it appears on the screen; platform 7. My legs aren't too good but I begin to walk quickly, then I notice others are running. I don't want to miss it as my ticket is for that, and only that, train. So I start to run too. Get to the barrier but a long queue on the ramp in front of me. I'll miss my train: what shall I do?

Little did I know that the inbound working arrived 30 minutes late and my train would actually leave about 15 minutes late at 1258, so I will catch it after all. But the stress, the worry. Maybe next time I'll get the coach or even drive...

 

[WAB]

You can't blame individuals in a situation/environment not of their making or in which they have no control over. Hillsborough has shown us that, as have various disasters noted above.

Suppose I arrive at Euston in good time to catch the 1243 to Liverpool. As a normal passenger/customer, I've no idea that the inbound working (0943 L'pool - Euston) is scheduled to arrive in platform 7 at 1204. All I know is that my train should leave at 1243. I'd already got my ticket, I'd arrived at Euston at midday. Can't see my train on any departure board. So I stand and wait. And wait. Nothing on the screens. It's now 1215. I don't know Euston very well, but wait in the middle of the concourse, along with everyone else. I see trains (with later departures than mine) appear on the board. No sign of mine yet. It's now 1230. Starting to get a bit anxious. I start to remember when I was a child going on a long journey, the train would be at the station way before we left. 1235 - no word that the train's been cancelled. Have I missed which platform it leaves from? 1240; getting really worried now. Suddenly it appears on the screen; platform 7. My legs aren't too good but I begin to walk quickly, then I notice others are running. I don't want to miss it as my ticket is for that, and only that, train. So I start to run too. Get to the barrier but a long queue on the ramp in front of me. I'll miss my train: what shall I do?

Little did I know that the inbound working arrived 30 minutes late and my train would actually leave about 15 minutes late at 1258, so I will catch it after all. But the stress, the worry. Maybe next time I'll get the coach or even drive...

Add to that scenario that you've been on previous journeys where the seat reservations haven't worked, and you had strolled to your seat as you had a reservation and then found no seats available, having to stand part of the way.

 

[etr221]

It's worth noting that TfL have values for fast/average/slow walking (for their journey planner) of 5/4/3 km/hr - see here. For working out timings for passengers, I would say you should allow for slow walking passsengers - 3km/hr. Which translates to 50 m/min. For a 12 coach, 250 m train that means 5 minutes (ok, worst case to front coach). Add actual boarding time, ticket checking time, concourse to train time (how far is that?),... - and I would suggest you're easily looking at 10-15 minutes. To get everybody through and boarded cofortably, without anybody having to rush, 20-30 minutes from announcing train?

 

[infobleep]

Following the ORR notice, N.R Euston, is now doing voice announcements for the platforms in advance, and some minutes later, is showing it on the board. Everything falls under the crowd management commitment, and this is an attempt to make it safer for the passengers.

Why would the trains be announced some minutes before they appear on the boards?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Why would the trains be announced soke minutes before they appear on the boards?

Apologies. What exactly does that mean?!

 

[CarrotPie]

Apologies. What exactly does that mean?!

I assume some

 

[nlogax]

Apologies. What exactly does that mean?!

Presumably some

 

[LRV3004]

Indeed. Also, when exactly are Euston departure platform numbers "announced" on apps?

I use Real Time Trains to find out the headcode of the train I'm travelling on, then use Traksy to find out what platform the train is on (if it's in), then hang around in the proximity of that platform!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I use Real Time Trains to find out the headcode of the train I'm travelling on, then use Traksy to find out what platform the train is on (if it's in), then hang around in the proximity of that platform!

No need to use Traksy for that, Realtime Trains will say "at platform" when it's there in the signalling system. Was caught out by that once though when there was a last minute set swap.