Dangerous boarding procedures at Euston

[hawk1911]

If we are getting to the stage where people are regularly unable to make it to the train, due to the late announcements, I would suggest people start booking passenger assistance when travelling from Euston.

 

[43066]

Has the reason why trains are so late being boarded at Euston ever been established? Presumably in the case of long distance, ie Avanti services, their staff would have to advise Network Rail when the train was ready, but this would surely not apply to LNWR and Overground trains, where 'by exception' boarding would apply; Unless advised otherwise arriving trains would form their diagrammed return working. There cannot be a deliberate policy to advertise trains as late as they are, can there!

That’s what I’d like to understand. At my London terminal platforms are pretty tightly managed, but we still seem to manage more than four minutes’ notice of departing trains!

 

[Dr Hoo]

Genuine question: Is there a concept of Train Ready To Start (TRTS) plungers at Euston to initiate the signal clearing and dispatch process?
If so, why are staff operating the TRTS when a train is patently not ‘ready to start’ (I.e. passengers still coming down the ramp, with walking difficulties, heavy luggage, reservations in Coach A and so on)?

 

[Hazlehead]

That’s what I’d like to understand. At my London terminal platforms are pretty tightly managed, but we still seem to manage more than four minutes’ notice of departing trains!

Maybe the current situation with the constant cancellation of services & delays has something to do with it? Traincrew are delayed incoming, in the case of drivers they then require a PNB which due to bad diagramming means they only have the minimum time even if they had been on time, so being delayed will mean late departures. I've heard that station staff can't board a service unless they have it confirmed that a driver is there or will be within a specific time.
Some services literally have a 27 Min turn around, add to that delayed arrival of day 10 mins & it quickly all goes to pot.
Also alot of set swaps seem to be happening due to maintenance requirements and/or defects

Not saying this is the main cause as even in those ,according to some,rose tinted Virgin days it was always the same, remember late boarding happened alot but certainly seems to be getting worse

 

[trainophile]

I was on the 13:35 Avanti from Glasgow Central today. It arrived late at 13:13, passenger disembarkation took about seven or eight minutes. Once the platform was fairly clear we were waved through and I was on board by 13:25. I don't know how the cleaning routines compare with Euston (maybe they don't have any - there were at least two passes through with bags collecting rubbish while I was on board as far as Wigan), but it seemed to go very smoothly, no panic or dashing. They also boarded the passenger assist customers first before the hoards were let through.

I was surprised at the number of Avanti staff around the queueing point, but as I say there was no impression of people having to rush, and nobody trying to barge through, we just queued patiently. Why can't Euston operate like Glasgow?

 

[WarrenTManager]

Whilst waiting for my train, the 16:46 from Euston to Crewe, passengers were told not to wait around the platform entrances and were to told to wait in the concourse, by the third party security officers.

At around 16:40, the platform was announced and hurds of people immediately started running down to the platform, clashing with people around the food outlets.

It is quite literally an accident waiting to happen, with the amount of people tripping over each other. Even on the platform itself, passengers were running to the doors eager to get a seat.

The boarding procedure here at Euston really needs to be looked at. On multiple occasions, services are announced far too late, leading to the infamous ‘Euston scrum’.

The worst I have known at Euston was three minutes. An absolute scandal.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

The worst I have known at Euston was three minutes. An absolute scandal.

That's barely even enough time to walk from the end of a 390/1 to the other, and they wonder why people run.

 

[Western Sunset]

Maybe Glasgow is different because they value the importance of the Avanti service and can concentrate resources to it, whereas at Euston it's just one Avanti train amongst many others.

 

[43066]

Maybe the current situation with the constant cancellation of services & delays has something to do with it? Traincrew are delayed incoming, in the case of drivers they then require a PNB which due to bad diagramming means they only have the minimum time even if they had been on time, so being delayed will mean late departures.

It won’t help if the diagrams are all (or mostly) bare minimum PNBs. That certainly isn’t particularly sensible for resilience, especially for a long distance operator, as it effectively guarantees that a late arrival equals a late departure of that crew member’s subsequent service. That is only magnified during disruption.

Crew shortages in and of themselves shouldn’t make too much difference, as they should know each day which turns are uncovered, which can be covered by spare/standby/cross covered between depots. From that they should know in advance which trains can’t be crewed and will therefore need to be cancelled.

I've heard that station staff can't board a service unless they have it confirmed that a driver is there or will be within a specific time.

Certainly where I am they’ll announce and board trains without a driver/TM present, however they won’t bell them out of the platform until they know both are present.

 

[Peter0124]

Maybe Glasgow is different because they value the importance of the Avanti service and can concentrate resources to it, whereas at Euston it's just one Avanti train amongst many others.

And they have their own dedicated platforms at Glasgow (And Manchester/Liverpool). Whereas at Euston it can be anywhere from 1-7 and 12-16

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Has the reason why trains are so late being boarded at Euston ever been established? Presumably in the case of long distance, ie Avanti services, their staff would have to advise Network Rail when the train was ready, but this would surely not apply to LNWR and Overground trains, where 'by exception' boarding would apply; Unless advised otherwise arriving trains would form their diagrammed return working. There cannot be a deliberate policy to advertise trains as late as they are, can there!

Part of the reason with LNWR currently is lack of platform staff as they need to be on the platform to relay the message to release the platform information.

You will generally find that if there is staff present on arrival, the boarding call is at least 10 mins prior to departure (particularly on the xx46 Crewe). However, recently I have found that staff are dispatching on other platforms and only show up around 5 mins prior to departure and thus passengers have a very short time between information being released and departure.

Obviously most of the time, platforms could be given in good time automatically, but with the slow lines being shut this morning, platform alterations were being done very late (mine was replatformed at the final approach signal due to delayed train occupying my planned platform), so there will be occasions where information is delayed for good reason.

Genuine question: Is there a concept of Train Ready To Start (TRTS) plungers at Euston to initiate the signal clearing and dispatch process?
If so, why are staff operating the TRTS when a train is patently not ‘ready to start’ (I.e. passengers still coming down the ramp, with walking difficulties, heavy luggage, reservations in Coach A and so on)?

At Euston, LNWR staff will request the signal 2 minutes prior to time, then initiate dispatch process once it's 1 minute prior to departure or once signal is given thereafter.

Whistle is blown and once platform is clear, CD given to the SC. If there are loads of people running down the ramp they may hold a few seconds before giving CD but usually it's a case of it being time to go so won't delay the train's departure. Obviously if people are still boarding then CD won't be given until the platform is clear and it is safe to.

If they didn't dispatch until there was nobody coming down the ramps, you'd never leave!

 

[43066]

Part of the reason with LNWR currently is lack of platform staff as they need to be on the platform to relay the message to release the platform information.

This might be a product of the location, and frankly seems an odd arrangement*.

Where I am NR actually control the platform screens, but they will announce trains as agreed with the TOC’s own train crew resource manager who sits in the crew depot and (in theory!) knows whether crew are present and correct. They have CCTV and access to the relevant electronic track diagrams, so can see the trains in real time independently of platform staff, and can also liaise directly with the signaller.

Obviously the platform staff need to be physically present to lock trains out, supervise splitting/joining, bell out, and actually dispatch etc.

*albeit I realise LNWR don’t have a depot at Euston, so that means they don’t have the luxury of a dedicated supervisor to “conduct the orchestra”, so to speak. No such excuse for Avanti, though!

 

[Belperpete]

Maybe the current situation with the constant cancellation of services & delays has something to do with it? Traincrew are delayed incoming, in the case of drivers they then require a PNB which due to bad diagramming means they only have the minimum time even if they had been on time, so being delayed will mean late departures. I've heard that station staff can't board a service unless they have it confirmed that a driver is there or will be within a specific time.

It makes sense that they won't board a train until it has been cleaned, and the guard is on-board and has loaded the seat reservations. Having a train-load of passengers board before the seat reservations are up causes chaos (I know it happens on occasions, but is surely something that should not be standard practice).

I suspect that the problem at Euston compared to other places, such as Glasgow, is the more complex diagraming of train-crew at Euston, so guards don't get to their trains much before departure time? In which case, diagraming guards to be on their trains earlier, would probably mean they would need more guards.

 

[Purple Train]

It makes sense that they won't board a train until it has been cleaned, and the guard is on-board and has loaded the seat reservations. Having a train-load of passengers board before the seat reservations are up causes chaos (I know it happens on occasions, but is surely something that should not be standard practice).

I'm playing devil's advocate, but it's a genuine question - isn't this fairly similar to the rather ridiculous CrossCountry advance tickets booking seat reservations after the train has set off? Obviously not on the same scale, but I do wonder why messing around with seat reservations when passengers are already on board would be considered alright in one scenario, and worthy of causing a massive scrum in another.

 

[infobleep]

Tough. As above, the railway's failing shouldn't be the passengers' problem to solve. Start causing delays to snowball and suddenly you'll find departures announced in good time instead of four minutes before.

Not to mention they don't want people running but if they issue late departure notices that is what people do. I would do it.

That’s what I’d like to understand. At my London terminal platforms are pretty tightly managed, but we still seem to manage more than four minutes’ notice of departing trains!

A lot of London terminals hae a minimum connection time of 15 minutes. If you allow 7.5 minutes to get off a train that is still 7.5 minutes remaining, which is 3.5 minutes more than they allowed customers for the 12:46.

In the past I was use to late announcements of platforms, with trains showing to be on time when they actually departed late.

Not knowing it would depart late for sure, I would run. This was at Euston for London Midland services and before June 2013! Yes over 10 years ago!

This might be a product of the location, and frankly seems an odd arrangement*.

*albeit I realise LNWR don’t have a depot at Euston, so that means they don’t have the luxury of a dedicated supervisor to “conduct the orchestra”, so to speak. No such excuse for Avanti, though!

Any reason why LNWR can't have someone at Euston to conduct things? Too expensive?

 

[BayPaul]

If one train is going to cause that sort of backlog, cancelling it and sending it back as ECS as soon as it's tipped out may well be the best plan, particularly if it's a Manchester. But I think the problem could be avoided by not cleaning it - annoying, but better than the rush.

Alternatively, to minimise passenger inconvenience, whilst still encouraging industry compliance through their wallet, if a platform isn't announced and opened in good time then the train should be marked as cancelled from Euston in appropriate systems, triggering delay repay and poor annual statistics. It could then be shown as on time from Milton Keynes (or wherever) onwards.

 

[Falcon1200]

Why can't Euston operate like Glasgow?

Maybe Glasgow is different because they value the importance of the Avanti service and can concentrate resources to it, whereas at Euston it's just one Avanti train amongst many others.

Indeed; There is of course a major difference between Euston and Glasgow Central in that at the latter, there is, most hours, just one Avanti service in the station, and there is usually no doubt at all what an incoming train is going to form!

 

[moogal]

As a regular user of LNWR services from the station, the weirdest thing I find is the inconsistency. Sometimes the trains are announced for boarding up to 25 minutes before departure, other times as little as 2-3 minutes, even when the train is sat there, unlocked and ready for boarding, for at least 15 mins beforehand. I don't like to 100% rely on the various apps as I've been caught out before by last minute changes even when the service was showing as "At platform", but especially at busy times I'll often end up edging down the ramp just to try to get ahead of the stampedes. On other occasions the platform is announced but the train itself is locked, so you get a mini scrum at each doorway, which doesn't help either. I assume there's some reason the train can't be left open, when it's known that it'll be going back out again in 20 minutes' time?

 

[Wolfie]

As a regular user of LNWR services from the station, the weirdest thing I find is the inconsistency. Sometimes the trains are announced for boarding up to 25 minutes before departure, other times as little as 2-3 minutes, even when the train is sat there, unlocked and ready for boarding, for at least 15 mins beforehand. I don't like to 100% rely on the various apps as I've been caught out before by last minute changes even when the service was showing as "At platform", but especially at busy times I'll often end up edging down the ramp just to try to get ahead of the stampedes. On other occasions the platform is announced but the train itself is locked, so you get a mini scrum at each doorway, which doesn't help either. I assume there's some reason the train can't be left open, when it's known that it'll be going back out again in 20 minutes' time?

Spot on.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

As a regular user of LNWR services from the station, the weirdest thing I find is the inconsistency. Sometimes the trains are announced for boarding up to 25 minutes before departure, other times as little as 2-3 minutes, even when the train is sat there, unlocked and ready for boarding, for at least 15 mins beforehand. I don't like to 100% rely on the various apps as I've been caught out before by last minute changes even when the service was showing as "At platform", but especially at busy times I'll often end up edging down the ramp just to try to get ahead of the stampedes. On other occasions the platform is announced but the train itself is locked, so you get a mini scrum at each doorway, which doesn't help either. I assume there's some reason the train can't be left open, when it's known that it'll be going back out again in 20 minutes' time?

As mentioned above, the main reason trains haven't been announced yet is staff haven't arrived at the platform and made the call to whoever needs to know.

Depending on the time of day, locked trains are ones that have been coupled/uncoupled by the inward working crew and are awaiting the outward working crew to unlock (most likely on PNB).

There is also "Close Doors for UPC" on numourous diagrams, and so will be waiting for a driver or waiting for them to complete the UPC.

*albeit I realise LNWR don’t have a depot at Euston, so that means they don’t have the luxury of a dedicated supervisor to “conduct the orchestra”, so to speak. No such excuse for Avanti, though!

They don't have train crew depot, but platform and supervisors are based there. There's even a 'station area manager' so they do have people to run the show, just a lack of platform staff recruitment.

 

[Krokodil]

What does UPC stand for?

 

[setdown]

Interestingly, the ORR issued 4 improvement notices in 2023. This includes the notice issued to Network Rail re: Euston management.

All notices, except one, are complied with. No prizes for guessing which one isn't! (and it had an extension too)

Network Rail have failed to implement, so far as is reasonably practicable, effective measures to prevent risks to health and safety of passengers (and other persons at the station) during passenger surges and overcrowding events at London Euston Station.

ORR has agreed with Network Rail to a short timescale extension to the Improvement Notice which allows the company to put the necessary control measures in place.

Improvement notices 2023 | Office of Rail and Road

This page contains details of improvement notices issued in 2023.

www.orr.gov.uk

 

[alex17595]

What does UPC stand for?

Prepare Cab Previously Coupled. A few tests (mainly brakes) that need carrying out on cabs that were intially prepared as middle cabs.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Part of the problem is the long distance from the concouse to the platform. If the platform is announced and people were allowed to queue on the ramp before the train was ready, that would reduce the time taken to board after the gates open.

 

[Western Sunset]

What were the arrangements at Euston when it opened in 1966?

 

[DaventryRabbit]

What were the arrangements at Euston when it opened in 1966?

Things were infinitely more genteel amd civilized then. You arrived in good time for your train (most of the time) and had no real need to run. How different to today where a good proportion of the passengers seem to turn up on the concourse with literally minutes or even seconds to go. No doubt then platform numbers weren't supressed then either.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

What were the arrangements at Euston when it opened in 1966?

There wasn't the same need to sweat the assets, trains were allowed longer turnaround times and therefore waiting at the platform when people arrived to board. It's strange though, no one would dream of keeping people at the barriers at Milton Keynes Central until the train arrived then a scrum to get on, why this happens at Euston I'll never know.

 

[uglymonkey]

"How different to today where a good proportion of the passengers seem to turn up on the concourse with literally minutes or even seconds to go. " When in doubt blame the paying customers ! ( Partly in jest).

 

[cool110]

It's common sense, if know they're going to announce the platform so late you have to run anyway there's no point arriving early.

 

[sprunt]

"How different to today where a good proportion of the passengers seem to turn up on the concourse with literally minutes or even seconds to go. " When in doubt blame the paying customers ! ( Partly in jest).

The same, but without any hint of jest. The idea anyone could be even vaguely familiar with how boarding works at Euston and think "Ah, it must be the passengers turning up at the last minute." is comical.