day travel card

[Zoe]

Yes - but I don't see how that matters? The Travelcard system gives unlimited travel over any route...

There is nothing in the franchise agreement mandating London Midland to accept travelcards for unlimited travel to Watford Junction. Only the existing 1995 travelcard agreement.

 

[AlterEgo]

There is nothing in the franchise agreement mandating London Midland to accept travelcards for unlimited travel to Watford Junction. Only the existing 1995 travelcard agreement.

That is interesting - I didn't know that.

How simple rail travel is (!)

 

[yorkie]

Isn't London to Watford a London Midland set fare?

So is Bushey to East Croydon or Upminster or Hadley Wood.... what implication does that have?

 

[Statto]

I asked about this before and was told that the ticket you describe from Watford Junction allows unlimited travel in zones 1 to 9 plus ONE return journey from Watford Junction to zone 9. I was also informed that the Watford Junction barriers will retain the ticket when you return. I doubt London Midland want people having unlimited journeys for a day from Watford to London.

That's out of order as you can still use the Traverlcard on the TFL bus services[142 & 258] which start at Watford Junction Station.

 

[Zoe]

So is Bushey to East Croydon or Upminster or Hadley Wood.... what implication does that have?

The point is that London Midland set the fare from London to Watford Junction, they decide what the journey should cost. Why should they allow unlimited travel (and so less revenue) if there is no requirment for them to do so? Nowhere in the franchise agreemented does it explicity state this requirment. It is only stated that they must follow the travelcard agreement. Changes to the travelcard agreement including the stations require agreement of both tfl and the TOCs. London Midland actually initially refused to accept Oyster on their services to Watford Junction.

 

[clagmonster]

My understanding is:
LT issued travelcards are for Zones 1-W, allowing unlimited journeys within those zones including to Watford Jn. Similarly, if you reach the Oyster Zone 1-W cap, you can make unlimited journeys within said zones at no extra charge.
BR issued Travelcards from Watford Jn allow one return journey from Watford Jn-"Boundary Zone 9" (not the other way round, although you could only use one 'portion' of it) and unlimited journeys within Zones 1-9. I suspect that is because 'London Zones 1-W' has never been added to the fares database as a destination, even so it would make things considerably easier.

Flamingo, did you try asking the machine for a single from Zone U1* London-Watford Jn? If that doesn't work, in some casesthe origin has to be Zone U1256* or alternatively try Acton Main Line. If the passenger requires a Travelcard, there are several possibilities:
If they wish to make multiple journeys to Watford Jn, send them to the LUL booking office at Paddington,
If they wish to make multiple journeys in the normal zones (ie 1-2, 1-4 or 1-6) and one journey to Watford Jn, sell them the relevent Travelcard and a ticket from the relevent boundary to Watford Jn,
If they wish to make multiple journeys in zones 1-9 and one journey to Watford Jn, sell them a Travelcard with the origin of Chesham (this will be routed AAA London Zones 7-9)and a ticket from Boundary Zone 6 to Watford Jn or send them to the LT booking office, I'm unsure which method will work out cheaper as I don't have access to Boundary Zone fares.

 

[radamfi]

That's out of order as you can still use the Traverlcard on the TFL bus services[142 & 258] which start at Watford Junction Station.

The fare manual pdfs on the National Rail website used to say something along the lines of "You may retain the ticket at barriers for use on TfL buses outside the zones" It may well still say that in the manual but that is now being kept secret from the public.

 

[Zoe]

The fare manual pdfs on the National Rail website used to say something along the lines of "You may retain the ticket at barriers for use on TfL buses outside the zones" It may well still say that in the manual but that is now being kept secret from the public.

So once you leave the zones then the TOCs do have the right to retain the ticket? If so then the travelcard effectively ceases to be valid as a travecard when you leave the zones and its only purpose is for you to return to your original station.

 

[radamfi]

Just found the relevant extract from fare manual NFM98:

’Out-Boundary’ Day Travelcards

’Out-boundary’ Day Travelcards must be issued to Zones
R1256 only (All Zones). They include one return rail journey to
the first station within Zone 6 of the London Fare Zones area
on the line of route for which the ticket is issued. For example,
a Day Travelcard from Bedford to R1256 is valid for one return
journey from Bedford to Elstree & Borehamwood, and
unlimited travel on participating operators services within all 6
fare zones.

Note: on return to the origin station, ticket holders may, upon
request, retain their tickets for travel on permitted London bus
services that operate outside the London Fare Zones area.
Where available, prices to R1256 (All Zones) are shown in
Section C. No other zonal combinations are available from
’Out-boundary’ stations.

 

[Zoe]

Sorry for the confusion above. I thought the "you" in the original post referred to the TOC. So if the barriers retain your ticket, you can ask the staff to retrieve it then?

 

[radamfi]

So if the barriers retain your ticket, you can ask the staff to retrieve it then?

I think you are supposed to queue up to speak to the barrier staff and not attempt to insert the ticket into the automated gate.

 

[tony_mac]

Although you wouldn't know until you had done it once! (been there, done that...).

Although I don't think we have established, with any certainty, that the Watford Junction travelcard is supposed to be an out-boundary travelcard (although it is obviously coded as one). It would be bizarre if there were three different ways of doing it, with three identical prices, but differing validity.

 

[causton]

It's the same at Potters Bar, except FCC put up a helpful notice telling people to ask barrier staff if they want to use the 84/298/313 TfL* bus services from the station. I say helpful, as it says it facing where people would be coming ON to the platforms, not as they are about to leave and put their ticket in the barrier!...

*The 84 isn't TfL but let's not get bogged down in that, it accepts travelcards...

 

[Flamingo]

My understanding is:
LT issued travelcards are for Zones 1-W, allowing unlimited journeys within those zones including to Watford Jn. Similarly, if you reach the Oyster Zone 1-W cap, you can make unlimited journeys within said zones at no extra charge.
BR issued Travelcards from Watford Jn allow one return journey from Watford Jn-"Boundary Zone 9" (not the other way round, although you could only use one 'portion' of it) and unlimited journeys within Zones 1-9. I suspect that is because 'London Zones 1-W' has never been added to the fares database as a destination, even so it would make things considerably easier.

Flamingo, did you try asking the machine for a single from Zone U1* London-Watford Jn? If that doesn't work, in some casesthe origin has to be Zone U1256* or alternatively try Acton Main Line. If the passenger requires a Travelcard, there are several possibilities:
If they wish to make multiple journeys to Watford Jn, send them to the LUL booking office at Paddington,
If they wish to make multiple journeys in the normal zones (ie 1-2, 1-4 or 1-6) and one journey to Watford Jn, sell them the relevent Travelcard and a ticket from the relevent boundary to Watford Jn,
If they wish to make multiple journeys in zones 1-9 and one journey to Watford Jn, sell them a Travelcard with the origin of Chesham (this will be routed AAA London Zones 7-9)and a ticket from Boundary Zone 6 to Watford Jn or send them to the LT booking office, I'm unsure which method will work out cheaper as I don't have access to Boundary Zone fares.

I think I tried the Zone 1 Watford, and it came up no fare available. In the end, I sent them to the booking office in Pad, and made a mental note to look it up - which slipped my mind...

 

[radamfi]

I would argue that you can retain your Day Travelcard at ANY station even if there are no TfL bus services at that station. You could argue that you are going to get a lift to Redhill or Watford etc. and use TfL buses from there.

 

[W-on-Sea]

It's not the same at Potters Bar, though, as Potters Bar railway station is not in a travelcard zone (regardless of the fact that a couple of TfL buses pass by outside that you can use a travelcard on - the bus zones are not the same as the tube/train ones: you can use a travelcard only valid in zones 1 and 2 on ANY TfL contracted bus, even to Dorking or Slough!).

The question that seemingly remains unanswered, and that would make the difference is the one voiced by Tony_mac : whether the Watford Junction travelcard is supposed to be an out-boundary travelcard or not.

The practical answer is in most circumstances clear in any case: Oyster Pay as you go. Cheaper and less hassle. And no ambiguity about where and when it can be used.

 

[tony_mac]

Oyster Pay as you go. Cheaper and less hassle. And no ambiguity about where and when it can be used.

yes, but I have to fill in a form to re-register my Oyster in order to load my railcard discount, then I have to find an open ticket office who has time to deal with it, which is getting more difficult all the time.....

....but that's for a different time and thread!

 

[island]

Contrary to popular belief, Oyster cards do not need to be registered to have a discount loaded to them, although most ticket offices will insist that you do register it.

 

[MarkyMarkD]

I would argue that you can retain your Day Travelcard at ANY station even if there are no TfL bus services at that station. You could argue that you are going to get a lift to Redhill or Watford etc. and use TfL buses from there.

That is an interesting point. My boss used to wonder whether if you purchase a Day Travelcard from an outlying station, you could that same evening buy a straight super-off-peak day return to London and go back for a second dose of the big city ... and use your Day Travelcard from earlier?

This would again require the barrier staff to let you keep it.

Given that the price of the ticket implicitly includes the cost of a Day Travelcard - and not simply one you can use between the two journeys to and from London - I don't see why you cannot do this.

 

[Zoe]

It's not the same at Potters Bar, though, as Potters Bar railway station is not in a travelcard zone

Is Watford Junction really in a travelcard zone though? It may be that Watford Junction is technically outside the zones and "Zone W" is simply a designation used internally by tfl.

 

[OwlMan]

My understanding is:
LT issued travelcards are for Zones 1-W, allowing unlimited journeys within those zones including to Watford Jn. Similarly, if you reach the Oyster Zone 1-W cap, you can make unlimited journeys within said zones at no extra charge.
BR issued Travelcards from Watford Jn allow one return journey from Watford Jn-"Boundary Zone 9" (not the other way round, although you could only use one 'portion' of it) and unlimited journeys within Zones 1-9. I suspect that is because 'London Zones 1-W' has never been added to the fares database as a destination, even so it would make things considerably easier.

National Rail issued Travelcards only allow one return journey from zones 7-9 to the boundary, if you wish to travel around zones 7,8,9 (on LU only apart from 1 return journey) you need a LU issued ticket. The travelcard agreement for NR only applies to zones 1-6 (As originally set up, it has never been altered to include zones 7-9)

From The Manual (my highlights)
Travelcards valid for travel wholly within the London Zones 1-6 area are referred to as ‘In-boundary’. Travelcards issued for travel from stations outside Zones 1-6 of the London Fare Zones area are referred to as ‘Out-boundary’ and include one return journey between the origin station shown on the ticket, and the boundary of Fare Zone 6, i.e. Boundary Zone 6.

It should be especially noted that London Underground issued printed tickets which include Zones 7, 8 and/or 9 are valid for a single or return journey on National Rail services to any station within the zones for which the ticket is issued. For example: an LU issued printed single ticket for Zones 1-8 is valid for travel on either Chiltern Railways or LU services to Chalfont & Latimer, or alternatively on London Overground or London Midland services to Bushey or Watford High Street.

It is clear from the above that National Rail issued travelcards are only valid on National Rail for unlimited travel within zones 1-6 and for one journey from the origin to the boundary of zone 6

LU issued cards are only valid for one return journey on NR services in zones 7-9 but are unlimited on LU services.


Peter

 

[AlterEgo]

Is Watford Junction really in a travelcard zone though? It may be that Watford Junction is technically outside the zones and "Zone W" is simply a designation used internally by tfl.

The numerous copies of LU's Travelcard Map state:


Watford Junction is outside
Transport for London zonal
area. Special fares apply.

Suggests to me it's actually outside the Zones.

 

[clagmonster]

Peter, thanks for your manual extract, that is most interesting and I think clarifies the point.
So presumably the route 'AAA LDN ZONE 7-9' merely allows the passenger to return to a different station within said zones (or I suppose start at a different station to the origin on the ticket).

Presumably though, as tickets are intervailable, an LT issued Zones 1-9 Travelcard would be valid for unlimited journeys on BR services to Amersham (as they would be valid for unlimited LUL journeys to Amersham) but only one journey on BR to Bushey. But would it allow unlimited journeys on the outer zones of the DC Lines, which are BR but operated by LT?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think I tried the Zone 1 Watford, and it came up no fare available. In the end, I sent them to the booking office in Pad, and made a mental note to look it up - which slipped my mind...

Through tickets to/from the Underground always seem a strange world to me. In some cases, there are only fares from Zone U1256, in some cases there is a cheaper fare for Zone U1* or Zone U12*, but in this case none exist. I would suggest in such cases (I wouldn't be surprised it Watford was unique), either:
issue the ticket from Acton Main Line (a fare does exist, the SDS is £12.40)
issue a ticket from Zone U1* to Watford North (SDS £11.70), although this would only be valid via Euston, as Queens Park is in Zone 2. In any case, the are from Zone U12* is the same, that would allow travel on the Bakerloo to Harrow.

How you are supposed to know all that on the few times you are asked I have no idea.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
According to the LT fares table, there should be a SDS Zone U1*-Watford Jn for £11.30, why that isn't in your machine (or Webtis) I don't know. The Trainline can find it, but strangely also comes up with a £9.00 SDS via Queens Park, I don't know what that is.
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14416.aspx

 

[AlterEgo]

Presumably though, as tickets are intervailable, an LT issued Zones 1-9 Travelcard would be valid for unlimited journeys on BR services to Amersham (as they would be valid for unlimited LUL journeys to Amersham) but only one journey on BR to Bushey. But would it allow unlimited journeys on the outer zones of the DC Lines, which are BR but operated by LT?

Do you mean places such as Watford High Street? It would appear as though the answer is yes, as the LOROL services do allow unlimited travel, don't they?

(head explodes)

 

[clagmonster]

Yes, I do mean the likes of Watford High St. The ticket includes unlimited travel on LT services, but only one journey on BR services, I think. But the Watford DC services are both, so the question is essentially which catorgary do they fall into? I would agree with you that it is unlimited journeys, but I'm by no means certain.

 

[tony_mac]

LU issued cards are only valid for one return journey on NR services in zones 7-9 but are unlimited on LU services.

It is madness! Then why are there LU travelcards at all? Surely a boundary zone return would be more appropriate? - at least the passengers would have a chance of knowing what is supposed to be valid.

But multiple journeys are ok with Oyster?

 

[clagmonster]

Bus a boundary Zone return would only give one journey on LT services. There are three products, each with the same price (unless railcard discounts are applied), each of which have different validities. Of the three products, two of them are mutually exclusive as to where they can be sold, and one (the LT Travelcard) is virtually unobtainable in vast swaithes of suburbia within the zones. Confused?

 

[tony_mac]

Ok, I see, the travelcard would be valid for multiple journeys on, say, London Overground, but only one on London Midland. Maybe? but it may, or may not depend on whether you have made the journey on London Midland first, as it may only be valid on buses after that. or something.
Why would anyone be confused, it's so simple!

 

[AlterEgo]

My reasoning is that surely LOROL are bound by their franchise to offer unlimited journeys to Travelcard holders. It is surely possible for Oyster holders to have unlimited journeys (subject to the daily cap), so why not paper ticket holders?

 

[strathclyde318]

so if i got the 1-6 travelcard dose it mean i grt unlimited travel in the 1-6 zone