DB class 90 updates

[Class15]

thanks- thought this was spotter wibble.

Stored not withdrawn - as in could be used again if traffic demands require it and/or it becomes cheaper to run these loco's?

It could be - but the driver of the railtour (1Z86 on Monday, 90039’s last revenue earning service) seemed to think this was a permanent measure.

 

[zwk500]

Stored not withdrawn - as in could be used again if traffic demands require it and/or it becomes cheaper to run these loco's?

Depends how they're stored - last time I went past Crewe Electric Depot (some years back mind) there were more than a few 90s that were very much never going to be restored to service in the sidings.

 

[DarloRich]

Depends how they're stored - last time I went past Crewe Electric Depot (some years back mind) there were more than a few 90s that were very much never going to be restored to service in the sidings.

I didn't mean stored for spare parts recovery/tree cultivation purposes!

It could be - but the driver of the railtour (1Z86 on Monday, 90039’s last revenue earning service) seemed to think this was a permanent measure.

thanks - interesting.

 

[Class15]

Depends how they're stored - last time I went past Crewe Electric Depot (some years back mind) there were more than a few 90s that were very much never going to be restored to service in the sidings.

Well, I think the ones that were withdrawn in December are out in the open. That seems very bad news. The 4 that remained in service until recently remain in the depot. That’s what I heard so don’t quote me on that.

 

[londonmidland]

Copied from this tweet, the attached picture reads the following:

Dear colleagues,

I'm aware that there has been some speculation recently regarding the future of our Class 90 electric fleet and I would like to clarify our position.

The continuing high cost of energy means it is no longer commercially viable to run them, with our customers unable to take on the extra financial burden.

As a result, we have decided to withdraw our remaining operational Class 90s from service.

 

[Rail Quest]

Thanks for posting this, was about to do the same.

The fact that the post has the audacity to mention decarbonisation efforts after saying they're willing to sacrifice 90s for sheds on fully electric routes is a very sad thing to see.

Is anyone on here able to give some general stats surrounding the costs of using OHLE compared to diesel?

 

[Class15]

Copied from this tweet, the attached picture reads the following:

90039 was withdrawn around a week ago, so it’s nothing new.

 

[Class15]

Thanks for posting this, was about to do the same.

The fact that the post has the audacity to mention decarbonisation efforts after saying they're willing to sacrifice 90s for sheds on fully electric routes is a very sad thing to see.

Exactly. No way this railway system will ever be sustainable at this rate. Their “unreliability” was due to poor maintenance, I hear.

 

[45076]

I don't think DB would sell serviceable locos direct to a competitor, they have those 66s on hire to DRS but they're under no obligation to help Freightliner out commercially.

didn't they sell a bunch of class 66's to GBRF?

 

[Class15]

didn't they sell a bunch of class 66's to GBRF?

They did, also:

Class 56s to UKRL
Class 60s to GBRf and DCR
Class 67s to Colas

Those are the ones I’m aware of!

 

[43096]

They did, also:

Class 56s to UKRL
Class 60s to GBRf and DCR
Class 67s to Colas

Those are the ones I’m aware of!

The 10 operational GBRf 60s were sold to Colas before later transferring to GBRf. A handful were also sold by DB to GBRf for spares use.

 

[island]

Replacing electric locos with diesel seems a tad retrograde…

 

[Nym]

Replacing electric locos with diesel seems a tad retrograde…

Yes.
So maybe now the psudogoverment that is Network Rail will listen to the FoCs and make it financially viable to run electric trains, or perhaps someone will step up and rebate running electrics against their cost to try and prevent burning so much oil.

 

[Greybeard33]

It could be - but the driver of the railtour (1Z86 on Monday, 90039’s last revenue earning service) seemed to think this was a permanent measure.

Now reported that DB intends to sell or scrap its entire Class 90 fleet.

DB Cargo UK grounds electric fleet

A negative reaction to Britain’s energy cost crisis has short-circuited the environmental ambitions of another rail freight carrier. This time, it’s DB Cargo UK that has has been forced to sideline an electric traction fleet on the grounds of cost. The fiasco of rocketing electricity prices has...

www.railfreight.com

Following on from last year’s temporary grounding by Freightliner of their similarly-sized fleet of electric locomotives, also class 90. DB Cargo UK has been forced to take even more drastic action, and has put its two-dozen class 90 locomotives on permanent discharge, offering them for sale or scrap. The company admits that the decision is down to operating costs, and that it does represent a blow to their own environmental imperatives.

 

[Trainbike46]

Now reported that DB intends to sell or scrap its entire Class 90 fleet.

DB Cargo UK grounds electric fleet

A negative reaction to Britain’s energy cost crisis has short-circuited the environmental ambitions of another rail freight carrier. This time, it’s DB Cargo UK that has has been forced to sideline an electric traction fleet on the grounds of cost. The fiasco of rocketing electricity prices has...

www.railfreight.com

That is unfortunate, hopefully another FOC will see a business case for using them and buy them, rather than them going to scrap

 

[futureA]

How can diesel locos be more economical than electric?

 

[Trainbike46]

How can diesel locos be more economical than electric?

There is a bunch of reasons in all likelihood, but this thread goes through some of them:

DB should be stripped of its license to operate trains, due to insufficient use of electric locos on electrified routes

I never said battery freight locos were all non-serious propositions. And obviously the power requirements of a lorry are much less than that of a locomotive. ... as are the weight restrictions, and the typical gradients, speeds and duty cycles that they are designed for.

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[island]

How can diesel locos be more economical than electric?

Because the externalities of diesel are not properly taxed.

 

[sprinterguy]

That is unfortunate, hopefully another FOC will see a business case for using them and buy them, rather than them going to scrap

I could be wrong, but I can't see that being particularly likely:

• Freightliner's withdrawal of their class 86 locos suggests they have no requirement for electric traction beyond what can be provided by their existing class 90s, for similar economic reasons to DB.
• Direct Rail Services have ten modern class 88 locomotives with basic off-wire diesel capability for a comparatively small number of flows over primarily electrified routes.
• Rail Operations Group have thirty brand new dual-mode class 93 locos beginning to be delivered.
• GB Railfreight have thirty bi-mode class 99 locos on order.

I think that essentially just leaves Colas, who, barring one very brief foray with a class 86 ten years ago, haven't taken up electric traction as I suspect it wouldn't be appropriate for the flows they operate.

 

[43096]

Rail Operations Group have thirty brand new dual-mode class 93 locos beginning to be delivered.

Not quite. 10 on order with 20 options.

 

[WarrenTManager]

I would imagine units being cheaper to run than locos if the flows can justify and sustain companies like Varamis. I hope they succeed. The cost of the track access should be adjusted for an electrically hauled freight perhaps to compensate for/neutralise the electricity charges. Our Island goes forever backwards at the moment.

 

[12LDA28C]

I would imagine units being cheaper to run than locos if the flows can justify and sustain companies like Varamis. I hope they succeed. The cost of the track access should be adjusted for an electrically hauled freight perhaps to compensate for/neutralise the electricity charges. Our Island goes forever backwards at the moment.

You can hardly compare DB with Varamis. Varamis provide a very limited express parcels and palletised goods service on a single route. DB transport a much wider variety of goods over a much larger area of the railway network, of which many products are not suitable for transport in an EMU.

 

[sprinterguy]

Not quite. 10 on order with 20 options.

Ah, good point. Still seems unlikely that they'd take on redundant class 90s, though, when they have a more versatile modern alternative in the process of being delivered for what is currently quite a compact operation.

 

[Mollman]

I could be wrong, but I can't see that being particularly likely:

• Freightliner's withdrawal of their class 86 locos suggests they have no requirement for electric traction beyond what can be provided by their existing class 90s, for similar economic reasons to DB.
• Direct Rail Services have ten modern class 88 locomotives with basic off-wire diesel capability for a comparatively small number of flows over primarily electrified routes.
• Rail Operations Group have thirty brand new dual-mode class 93 locos beginning to be delivered.
• GB Railfreight have thirty bi-mode class 99 locos on order.

I think that essentially just leaves Colas, who, barring one very brief foray with a class 86 ten years ago, haven't taken up electric traction as I suspect it wouldn't be appropriate for the flows they operate.

The 86s were withdrawn in the hope that more electrification would see them return to traffic, that hasn't happened and now some seem to be being exported.
GB Railfreight's 99s are still a few years away, the 90s might be attractive to them considering they have a number of flows under the wires. Not sure how reliable the 92s are on the sleeper these days.

 

[Spaceship323]

The 86s were withdrawn in the hope that more electrification would see them return to traffic

Are you sure? the loco's would be 70 years old before any meaningful electrification scheme was completed

 

[Gordonman]

The 86s were withdrawn in the hope that more electrification would see them return to traffic, that hasn't happened and now some seem to be being exported.
GB Railfreight's 99s are still a few years away, the 90s might be attractive to them considering they have a number of flows under the wires. Not sure how reliable the 92s are on the sleeper these days.

Are you having a laugh?

Freightliner run many trains to Felixstowe with diesels under the wires all the way.

What stopped them using the class 86's on these workings?

 

[Trainbike46]

Are you having a laugh?

Freightliner run many trains to Felixstowe with diesels under the wires all the way.

What stopped them using the class 86's on these workings?

One challenge is that Felixstowe isn't wired into the port, so using electric traction requires a loco change (typically at Ipswich), which is an extra cost, and requires time being available in the path for that.

I was under the impression that these swaps do frequently happen, for flows via london. Flows via Ely obviously require diesel traction as most of that route isn't electrified

 

[Mollman]

Are you sure? the loco's would be 70 years old before any meaningful electrification scheme was completed

Are you having a laugh?

Freightliner run many trains to Felixstowe with diesels under the wires all the way.

What stopped them using the class 86's on these workings?

Considering it was reported in the rail press and reported by others on this forum then yes I am sure and no I am not having a laugh.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-86.217902/#post-5154707

https://www.gwrr.co.uk/news/freight...qlHRVHHlYXlwCqj6GqQvxNr-8nzauHYqgz3NF473wZEpw

Freightliner has recently acquired 13 class 90 locomotives from Porterbrook Leasing to complement its existing 10 locomotives. They operate using the 25k overhead line supply, reducing the dependency on diesel traction and contributing to making rail an even more sustainable and carbon-neutral mode for transporting freight. Rail freight is already producing 76% less carbon per gross tonne mile than road freight, and Freightliner is the largest user of electric locomotives to haul freight. The expansion of the electric fleet helps to improve that footprint further. Some of the locomotives will replace the ageing class 86 fleet which will be retired from service until they can be overhauled and re-introduced as Freightliner expands its electrically hauled services.

 

[43096]

GB Railfreight's 99s are still a few years away, the 90s might be attractive to them considering they have a number of flows under the wires. Not sure how reliable the 92s are on the sleeper these days.

For the umpteenth time, only Class 92s can be used on the sleeper due to the train supply rating (and ignoring fitting Dellner couplers).

 

[Forty29]

Thanks for posting this, was about to do the same.

The fact that the post has the audacity to mention decarbonisation efforts after saying they're willing to sacrifice 90s for sheds on fully electric routes is a very sad thing to see.

Is anyone on here able to give some general stats surrounding the costs of using OHLE compared to diesel?

I read somewhere about £1500 for run out on a freightliner service? Don't quote me!