December 2022 Timetable Changes

[Bletchleyite]

Most routes have rather different services now to what they did in the early 1990s. Regardless of whether you take the comparison to be December 2019 or December 2022...

What's there now is surprisingly similar to what was there in 1998. Blackpool local via Bolton, Scotland via Bolton (though more frequent), Barrow/Windermere via Wigan, two Southports (one Castlefield and one Vic) and a Clitheroe. Two Blackpools rather than one, and more Scotlands are the main difference, plus I think the Blackpools do Moses Gate etc as the EMUs accelerate better than the Clitheroe DMU, and the Vic Southport ran via Atherton. Though the Barrow/Windermere is moving to via Bolton.

 

[Starmill]

One I haven't seen yet mentioned, 1009 and 2306 Edinburgh to Dunbar have had time added to make a call at East Linton.

I am slightly surprised that there wasn't time to add this to the 0652 from Dunbar to Edinburgh to be honest, it would provide a much earlier arrival time than the 0708 Newcastle to Edinburgh. Maybe it will change later.

 

[Greybeard33]

...plus I think the Blackpools do Moses Gate etc as the EMUs accelerate better than the Clitheroe DMU...

In the December timetable Moses Gate, Farnworth and Kearsley are still served by the Southport - Stalybridge services, as now. These are pathed for 15x DMUs, although presumably some diagrams will be worked by 769s, as now.

 

[Starmill]

What's there now is surprisingly similar to what was there in 1998. Blackpool local via Bolton, Scotland via Bolton (though more frequent), Barrow/Windermere via Wigan, two Southports (one Castlefield and one Vic) and a Clitheroe. Two Blackpools rather than one, and more Scotlands are the main difference, plus I think the Blackpools do Moses Gate etc as the EMUs accelerate better than the Clitheroe DMU, and the Vic Southport ran via Atherton. Though the Barrow/Windermere is moving to via Bolton.

So not particularly similar at all then? Especially as there are to be two services via Darwen and already are via Westhoughton.

I think the Blackpools do Moses Gate etc as the EMUs accelerate better than the Clitheroe DMU

Kearsley, Farnworth and Moses Gate have never been served regularly by EMUs, it has only happened for short time or in an irregular fashion, as with the 769 diagrams.

 

[Watershed]

One I haven't seen yet mentioned, 1009 and 2306 Edinburgh to Dunbar have had time added to make a call at East Linton.

I am slightly surprised that there wasn't time to add this to the 0652 from Dunbar to Edinburgh to be honest, it would provide a much earlier arrival time than the 0708 Newcastle to Edinburgh. Maybe it will change later.

There is time - from December, all ScotRail Dunbar services either have a call at East Linton, or 3 mins performance allowance approaching Drem/Dunbar. No doubt if East Linton is ready to open before the May timetable change, those without the call will have it added in.

 

[td97]

Post electrification this was a Class 319, and briefly last year it was a 2-hourly service using a pair of Class 331s and was quite well utilised.

It was hourly in the Dec 19 timetable as a double 331.

It's dead. Part of the MRTF changes.

At least it means nobody will be able to complain about the long distance diesel trains having to make a stop at Chorley, and peak stops at Horwich Parkway.

Though the Barrow/Windermere is moving to via Bolton.

It's why the Barrow/Windermere services are needed back on the Bolton corridor.

Before the Victoria-Preston stopper was cancelled, there were 18 carriages/hour between Manchester and Preston via Chorley. Now there are only 12 (TPE excluded, as they don't serve the intermediate stops/are mostly unreliable).
Restoring the Barrow/Windermere to via Bolton/Chorley brings that back to 15 carriages/hour initially, with the aspiration to double those up and return to 18/hour after infrastructure improvements.

 

[Acfb]

One I haven't seen yet mentioned, 1009 and 2306 Edinburgh to Dunbar have had time added to make a call at East Linton.

I am slightly surprised that there wasn't time to add this to the 0652 from Dunbar to Edinburgh to be honest, it would provide a much earlier arrival time than the 0708 Newcastle to Edinburgh. Maybe it will change later.

Are there any plans to bring in a Sunday Scotrail service for Dunbar? Surely it would make sense to do this before East Linton opens?

 

[Bikeman78]

Poor reliability? Hardly.

I'm yet to have one fail on me. Then again I didn't suffer an HST failure in 20 years.

 

[Watershed]

Are there any plans to bring in a Sunday Scotrail service for Dunbar? Surely it would make sense to do this before East Linton opens?

Sundays still aren't inside for ScotRail. Unless and until they do become inside, I doubt you'll see much in the way of service improvements.

 

[Roger B]

I'm yet to have one fail on me. Then again I didn't suffer an HST failure in 20 years.

They seem to be generally fine south of Preston. But around the time I last took a trip to Scotland (June), over 50% of TPE services were being turned back south of the border - mainly at Carlisle, but also a few at Preston.

 

[Starmill]

There is time - from December, all ScotRail Dunbar services either have a call at East Linton, or 3 mins performance allowance approaching Drem/Dunbar. No doubt if East Linton is ready to open before the May timetable change, those without the call will have it added in.

Well that at least is reassuring.

 

[DA1]

Plenty more rumours as well in SE metro land. Extended North Kent’s anyone?

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

I don't think my post was seen but what's the reason for the 09:27 Plymouth - Aberdeen on weekdays being cut back to Edinburgh in that timetable change?

 

[JonathanH]

I don't think my post was seen but what's the reason for the 09:27 Plymouth - Aberdeen on weekdays being cut back to Edinburgh in that timetable change?

Seems a reasonably sensible move to reduce the need for CrossCountry to engage crew and rolling stock on a 6 hour round trip to Aberdeen from Edinburgh. Presumably the capacity it used to give over the route and a later departure from Aberdeen back to Edinburgh is no longer required.

As pointed out before by other posters, CrossCountry running to Aberdeen is a fairly substantial resource requirement away from their core network.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...oss-country-trains.221080/page-5#post-5267857

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

CrossCountry have been wanting to significantly reduce operations to Aberdeen (and Paignton) for ages now anyway.

 

[Sleepy]

CrossCountry have been wanting to significantly reduce operations to Aberdeen (and Paignton) for ages now anyway.

They can't even run all the Stansted Airport to Cambridge timetable when it's been cut down to 2 hourly ?!?

 

[Starmill]

They can't even run all the Stansted Airport to Cambridge timetable when it's been cut down to 2 hourly ?!?

To be fair, that doesn't really have anything to do with the future of through services to Aberdeen, Glasgow Central, Paignton or Penzance. I would expect at least one of the four to be permanently cut, maybe more.

CrossCountry are unable to cover the number of driver diagrams which would be required for a complete restoration of 2019's services to Stansted Airport. They've tried but it hasn't worked. That's unlikely to be changing in the foreseeable future. Still, it's better than Bristol to Birmingham. It is unlikely however that Cambridge crew are going to lose all of their Stansted Airport work (unless as part of a wider restructure).

 

[craigybagel]

To be fair, that doesn't really have anything to do with the future of through services to Aberdeen, Glasgow Central, Paignton or Penzance. I would expect at least one of the four to be permanently cut, maybe more.

CrossCountry are unable to cover the number of driver diagrams which would be required for a complete restoration of 2019's services to Stansted Airport. They've tried but it hasn't worked. That's unlikely to be changing in the foreseeable future. Still, it's better than Bristol to Birmingham. It is unlikely however that Cambridge crew are going to lose all of their Stansted Airport work (unless as part of a wider restructure).

Probably worth pointing out that at the last timetable change, Birmingham drivers had Stansted taken off their route cards, and Plymouth lost Paignton - neither of which bodes well for the long term future service levels.

 

[miklcct]

Service provision at Beaulieu Road on weekdays will be improved.

In the new timetable, the eastbound service will be approximately a call every 2 hours, and the last westbound train back will be slightly extended.

Current timetable (eastbound)
Mon - Fri: 08:08, 09:38, 11:38, 13:37, 17:38, 18:38, 20:38
Sat: 09:38, 11:38, 13:38, 15:38, 17:38, 20:38
Sun: 08:36, 09:36, 10:39, hourly until 21:39

New timetable (eastbound)
Mon - Fri: 08:07, 08:35, 10:35, 12:35, 14:35, 16:35, 18:35, 20:38
Sat: 08:35, 10:35, 12:35, 14:35, 16:35, 18:35, 20:35
Sun: 08:39, hourly until 21:39

Current timetable (westbound)
Mon - Fri: 07:47, 08:13, 10:44, 11:44, 13:44, 15:44, 17:11, 18:11, 21:45
Sat: 08:31, 09:44, 11:44, 13:44, 15;44, 17:44, 19:44
Sun: 08:48, 09:50, 10:50, 11:50, 12:50, 13:50, 14:48, 15:48, 16:48, 17:50, 18:50, 19:50, 20:50, 21:50

New timetable (westbound)
Mon - Fri: 07:47, 08:13, 10:10, 12:10, 14:10, 16:10, 17:11, 18:13, 22:10
Sat: 08:31, 10:10, 12:10, 14:10, 16:10, 18:10, 20:20
Sun: 08:48, 09:50, 10:50, 11:50, 12:50, 13:50, 14:48, 15:48, 16:48, 17:50, 18:50, 19:50, 20:50, 21:50

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Southeastern is now in RTT for Dec 22 if anyone is interested. Big changes happening there of course. Although, not all of the trains are downstream yet.

 

[Class 466]

Southeastern is now in RTT for Dec 22 if anyone is interested. Big changes happening there of course. Although, not all of the trains are downstream yet.

Worth really emphasising that there are some big gaps where trains aren’t downstream yet before anyone starts wondering why there line has seen their service halved*

*Not entirely untrue in the case of Maidstone - Ashford on a Saturday however which does drop to 1tph, but the all day hourly Maidstone to Charing X isn’t showing properly.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Worth really emphasising that there are some big gaps where trains aren’t downstream yet before anyone starts wondering why there line has seen their service halved*

*Not entirely untrue in the case of Maidstone - Ashford on a Saturday however which does drop to 1tph, but the all day hourly Maidstone to Charing X isn’t showing properly.

There are, as you say, some fantastic gaps in the timetable.

But I do like the idea of a new Blackfriars to Dartford via Sidcup in the WTT, that’s got some serious history to it. Route 58, if I’m not mistaken.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Worth really emphasising that there are some big gaps where trains aren’t downstream yet before anyone starts wondering why there line has seen their service halved*

*Not entirely untrue in the case of Maidstone - Ashford on a Saturday however which does drop to 1tph, but the all day hourly Maidstone to Charing X isn’t showing properly.

Saturday is pretty much fully downstream apart from missing the Maidstone East service and one other service group running from Cannon Street.

 

[Chiltern006]

Just some of the big changes I can see

• Hayes is entirely Charing Cross
• Sevenoaks stoppers are retimed to call at Lewisham
• Orpington to Cannon Street stoppers run fast from Hither Green to St Johns
• Victoria to Orpington stoppers are every 15 minutes from about half 2 in the afternoon
• Hastings services have been pushed back by 7 minutes, and don’t call at Orpington in the peak (pre covid this was true)
• Still a few gaps on Maidstone services, but the Charing Cross service is running
• Tunbridge Wells and Hastings services have swapped timings (now they are xx00/xx30 Tunbridge Wells and xx15/xx45 Hastings, vice versa in December)

 

[JonathanH]

Tunbridge Wells and Hastings services have swapped timings (now they are xx00/xx30 Tunbridge Wells and xx15/xx45 Hastings, vice versa in December)

Separate Tunbridge Wells services only run hourly on Saturday mornings and at certain times on a weekday. Most of the rest of the time reliance is placed on the Hastings service. Makes you wonder whether the half hourly Hastings service would be enough all day.

(Two arrivals at Tunbridge Wells on Saturday go to sidings around lunchtime and don't appear to come back out - presumably morning demand is more concentrated than later in the day.)

 

[Class 466]

Separate Tunbridge Wells services only run hourly on Saturday mornings and at certain times on a weekday. Most of the rest of the time reliance is placed on the Hastings service. Makes you wonder whether the half hourly Hastings service would be enough all day.

(Two arrivals at Tunbridge Wells on Saturday go to sidings around lunchtime and don't appear to come back out - presumably morning demand is more concentrated than later in the day.)

The answer to that as a local is immediately no. Unless overcrowding on the 8 car 1Hs is your thing.

Saturday is pretty much fully downstream apart from missing the Maidstone East service and one other service group running from Cannon Street.

Believe there’s 1tph missing on the Medway Valley on a Saturday/SX as well.

 

[Chiltern006]

none of the hastings services until around 1600 M-F are up as of yet

 

[brad465]

• Victoria to Orpington stoppers are every 15 minutes from about half 2 in the afternoon

Does this mean that Thameslink have given up on Orpington, or have SE decided the capacity to turn around at Bromley South no longer exists?

• Still a few gaps on Maidstone services, but the Charing Cross service is running

Yes appears to be all on there, there's also one CHX service that runs through to Ashford just before the evening peak. As expected there are is no beyond Ashford service anymore, apart from one morning train to Ramsgate and one morning train from Folkestone Central, which while a loss of convenience I suppose for those wanting a direct service to Canterbury W et al., the current service had a long wait at Ashford anyway.

 

[JonathanH]

Does this new Southeastern timetable free up any units either for transfer to Southern (eg the suggested 377/5s) or scrap? It seems like frequencies are less than before March 2020 so it would seem odd if it doesn't lead to a fleet reduction, like has been seen on Southern and SWR.

 

[Class 466]

Does this new Southeastern timetable free up any units either for transfer to Southern (eg the suggested 377/5s) or scrap? It seems like frequencies are less than before March 2020 so it would seem odd if it doesn't lead to a fleet reduction, like has been seen on Southern and SWR.

Far too soon to tell, the difference between SN/SW & SE is that they didn’t have enough stock back in March 2020. until the rest of the 707s come over at some point in 2023 - no more units will leave is my understanding.

Does this mean that Thameslink have given up on Orpington, or have SE decided the capacity to turn around at Bromley South no longer exists?

TL still run to Orpington. The difference with December 2019 is that SE no longer goes to a 3 tph frequency on each service group out of CST/CHX in the peaks like they used to which means there’s additional capacity alongside the TL services between Petts Wood & Orpington.