December 2022 Timetable Changes

[Stephen42]

Does this mean that Thameslink have given up on Orpington, or have SE decided the capacity to turn around at Bromley South no longer exists?

Neither of those have changed. The turnarounds at Bromley South were fairly tight and it would only be an extra set/driver at peak times to extend to Orpington, some pathing time added between Bromley South and Orpington to make the platform allocations simpler. Beckenham Junction - Blackfriars services are showing up as well so maybe partially capacity related.

More curiously is 2G93 1733 London Blackfriars to Dartford via Sidcup. Can't see if it's replacing something else, but is a single service doing that route evening peak only.

 

[Class 466]

Neither of those have changed. The turnarounds at Bromley South were fairly tight and it would only be an extra set/driver at peak times to extend to Orpington, some pathing time added between Bromley South and Orpington to make the platform allocations simpler. Beckenham Junction - Blackfriars services are showing up as well so maybe partially capacity related.

More curiously is 2G93 1733 London Blackfriars to Dartford via Sidcup. Can't see if it's replacing something else, but is a single service doing that route evening peak only.

The metro timetable is missing quite a bit at the moment. Wouldn’t be surprised if there were more to/from Blackfriars.

 

[mister-sparky]

Just some of the big changes I can see

• Hayes is entirely Charing Cross
• Sevenoaks stoppers are retimed to call at Lewisham
• Orpington to Cannon Street stoppers run fast from Hither Green to St Johns
• Victoria to Orpington stoppers are every 15 minutes from about half 2 in the afternoon
• Hastings services have been pushed back by 7 minutes, and don’t call at Orpington in the peak (pre covid this was true)
• Still a few gaps on Maidstone services, but the Charing Cross service is running
• Tunbridge Wells and Hastings services have swapped timings (now they are xx00/xx30 Tunbridge Wells and xx15/xx45 Hastings, vice versa in December)

Weren’t the Hastings meant to be running fast between tonbridge and London Bridge? Or is that next May?

 

[Class 466]

Weren’t the Hastings meant to be running fast between tonbridge and London Bridge? Or is that next May?

That was on the basis of there being 8tph from Tonbridge to London Bridge - something that'll never happen now.

 

[Chiltern006]

Most Hastings services are still not up M-F yet, i hope it’s a mistake, however is probably more complex than other parts of the SE network having lots of single track sections

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Most Hastings services are still not up M-F yet, i hope it’s a mistake, however is probably more complex than other parts of the SE network having lots of single track sections

It's all been published, just will take time to filter downstream.

 

[DA1]

Some other metro changes:
- Dartford to Charing Cross returns via Sidcup stopping at all stations but no Albany Park and routed via Lewisham.
- A weird, random Gravesend service all day via Sidcup stopping all stations and avoiding Lewisham.
- Dartford Vics come in and out of the sidings for most of the day.
- All day Bexleyheath rounders.

Awaiting the North Kent but hearing some changes are coming.

 

[SE%Traveller]

I had quick look and I make the Off Peak to be this

I think i'm right in saying that all conflicting moves at Lewisham have gone save for Victoria Dartford Service and some peak Charing Cross Services on the Bexleyheath line?

LONDON BRIDGE
Woolwich
4tph London Bridge (2tph Bexleyheath CST via GNW; 2tph Rainham Luton(TL))
23/ 7 mins

Some additionals North Kent TBC (London Bridge (Dartford CST via LEW))

Bexleyheath
2tph Victoria (via LEW)
Every 30 mins
2tph Cannon Street to Cannon St (via LEW)
Every 30 mins

Sidcup
2 4tph Charing Cross (2 via LEW)
Every 30 15 Mins Each Every 30 Mins

Mid Kent
4tph Charing Cross (2 via LEW)
Every 15 mins

Grove Park
4tph TPH London Bridge (2tph Sevenoaks CHX via LEW; 2tph Orpington CST)
10/20 mins

VICTORIA:

Penge East:
2tph Victoria (Orpington)
Every 30 mins

Catford Loop:
2tph Blackfriars (Sevenoaks (TL))

Every 30 mins

 

[Peregrine 4903]

I had quick look and I make the Off Peak to be this

I think i'm right in saying that all conflicting moves at Lewisham have gone save for Victoria Dartford Service and some peak Charing Cross Services on the Bexleyheath line?

LONDON BRIDGE
Woolwich
4tph London Bridge (2tph Bexleyheath CST via GNW; 2tph Rainham Luton(TL))
23/ 7 mins

Some additionals London Bridge (Dartford CST via LEW)

Bexleyheath
2tph Victoria (via LEW)
Every 30 mins
2tph Cannon Street to Cannon St (via LEW)
Every 30 mins

Sidcup
2tph Charing Cross (via LEW)
Every 30 Mins

Mid Kent
4tph Charing Cross (via LEW)
Every 15 mins

Grove Park
4tph TPH London Bridge (2tph Sevenoaks CHX via LEW; 2tph Orpington CST)
10/20 mins

VICTORIA:

Penge East:
2tph Victoria (Orpington)
Every 30 mins

Catford Loop:
2tph Blackfriars (Sevenoaks (TL))

Every 30 mins

There are still 2tph missing on the north Kent line which haven't gone downstream yet.

Also there are 4tph on the Sidcup line.

 

[SE%Traveller]

ah, ok thanks completely missed the Charing Cross Gravesend via Sidcups (not via Lewisham) so corrected.

 

[Chiltern006]

ive tried my best here, but here are some comparisons (was in a rush so had to do station codes, sorry mods)

definitely some winners and some losers. sincerely hope cannon street and st pancras get more services off-peak

any confusion
BXH- Bexleyheath

GRV-Gravesend

 

[Class 466]

Sidcup
2 4tph Charing Cross (2 via LEW)
Every 30 15 Mins

Every 15 mins is a bit of a stretch when they're 5-6 minutes apart on the down

 

[Peregrine 4903]

ive tried my best here, but here are some comparisons (was in a rush so had to do station codes, sorry mods)

definitely some winners and some losers. sincerely hope cannon street and st pancras get more services off-peak

any confusion
BXH- Bexleyheath

GRV-Gravesend

Cannon Street has an additional 2tph that are yet to be published yet, or just haven't filtered into Downstream systems.

I won't say what they are and yet you all be surprised.

There are also some trains missing on the Medway Valley Line.

 

[brad465]

ive tried my best here, but here are some comparisons (was in a rush so had to do station codes, sorry mods)

definitely some winners and some losers. sincerely hope cannon street and st pancras get more services off-peak

any confusion
BXH- Bexleyheath

GRV-Gravesend

There must be some Chatham Mainline stoppers missing from RTT around the peak, as having a look at RTT myself there's nothing between 14:42 and 16:42, and I cannot see a peak time service of 1tph coping, in reference to no 17:42 train being in place, despite services at 18:12 (to Rochester) and 18:42.

 

[30907]

I had quick look and I make the Off Peak to be this

I think i'm right in saying that all conflicting moves at Lewisham have gone save for Victoria Dartford Service and some peak Charing Cross Services on the Bexleyheath line?

Looks like it - which leaves open the possibility of simplifying the junction when it is next renewed.

Bexleyheath
2tph Victoria (via LEW)
Every 30 mins
2tph Cannon Street to Cannon St (via LEW)
Every 30 mins

Surely there must be a CHX service too?

Mid Kent
4tph Charing Cross (via LEW)
Every 15 mins

Alternately via Ladywell Loop.
Better solution than the originally proposed Hayes-Victoria!

VICTORIA:

Penge East:
2tph Victoria (Orpington)
Every 30 mins

Extended peak period with 15min IIRC (see upthread)

 

[Chiltern006]

15 mins runs until 0900 and from 1430

 

[SE%Traveller]

Every 15 mins is a bit of a stretch when they're 5-6 minutes apart on the down

Opps, will remove that reference then!

There must be some Chatham Mainline stoppers missing from RTT around the peak, as having a look at RTT myself there's nothing between 14:42 and 16:42, and I cannot see a peak time service of 1tph coping, in reference to no 17:42 train being in place, despite services at 18:12 (to Rochester) and 18:42.

I'm guessing there's no change to the Gillingham to Victoria via Denmark Hill so 2tph Peaks 1 tph off peak. seems to be same times

Surely there must be a CHX service too?

Could only see the peak extras

Alternately via Ladywell Loop.
Better solution than the originally proposed Hayes-Victoria!

opps, will correct

well i have slight bias being at Denmark Hill wanting a 4tph Victoria service that the original proposal was part of. However if i was existing user of the line i'd be agreeing with you I'm sure!

15 mins runs until 0900 and from 1430

definitely better than was (and what's on the Catford Loop) but still 2tph all day saturday.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Looks like it - which leaves open the possibility of simplifying the junction when it is next renewed.

Surely there must be a CHX service too?

Alternately via Ladywell Loop.
Better solution than the originally proposed Hayes-Victoria!

Extended peak period with 15min IIRC (see upthread)

There is no off peak Charing Cross service on the Bexleyheath line.

 

[DA1]

There is no off peak Charing Cross service on the Bexleyheath line.

The locals will be delighted at that decision!

You were right, there are some very big changes.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

The locals will be delighted at that decision!

You were right, there are some very big changes.

I did know what the changes were going to be!

No off peak Charing Cross service on the North Kent either.

 

[DA1]

No off peak Charing Cross service on the North Kent either.

I’m expecting an all day Cannon Street service via Lewisham on the North Kent (from Gravesend potentially). Obviously rumours will be rumours however.

 

[SE%Traveller]

The turnarounds at Bromley South were fairly tight and it would only be an extra set/driver at peak times to extend to Orpington, some pathing time added between Bromley South and Orpington to make the platform allocations simpler.

Also it removes a constraint should they ever wish to adjust the timings of the Down Thameslink trains. the Bromley South terminators layover from XX:11 to XX:19 and XX:41 to XX:49 so 8 mins each time. Thameslink currently get there XX:02 XX:22 XX:32 XX:52 (for posterity VIC - ORP XX:05 XX:35)

More curiously is 2G93 1733 London Blackfriars to Dartford via Sidcup.

Clutching at straws, route training drivers? are SE obliged to run something that way? (now now Maidstone Easts are no more?).

Still busy time Blackfriars to Denmark Hill at that time and will be useful for some hospital staff heading East so will get used. That said even more true in the morning...

 

[Class 466]

Also it removes a constraint should they ever wish to adjust the timings of the Down Thameslink trains. the Bromley South terminators layover from XX:11 to XX:19 and XX:41 to XX:49 so 8 mins each time. Thameslink currently get there XX:02 XX:22 XX:32 XX:52 (for posterity VIC - ORP XX:05 XX:35)


Clutching at straws, route training drivers? are SE obliged to run something that way? (now now Maidstone Easts are no more?).

Still busy time Blackfriars to Denmark Hill at that time and will be useful for some hospital staff heading East so will get used. That said even more true in the morning...

I believe there will be a similar DFD-BFR via SID service in the AM Peak too.

 

[Timmyd]

Opps, will remove that reference then!


I'm guessing there's no change to the Gillingham to Victoria via Denmark Hill so 2tph Peaks 1 tph off peak. seems to be same times


Could only see the peak extras


opps, will correct

well i have slight bias being at Denmark Hill wanting a 4tph Victoria service that the original proposal was part of. However if i was existing user of the line i'd be agreeing with you I'm sure!


definitely better than was (and what's on the Catford Loop) but still 2tph all day saturday.

Saturday is when the 4tph service via Penge is really needed, they’re very busy. Remember Penge W has lost all trains to central London too

 

[Southern Dvr]

Saturday is when the 4tph service via Penge is really needed, they’re very busy. Remember Penge W has lost all trains to central London too

Penge east to Victoria & Penge west same platform change from Sydenham onwards to Bridge.

 

[30907]

Penge east to Victoria & Penge west same platform change from Sydenham onwards to Bridge.

So 2 routes each 2tph. Fine, if you live halfway between the two and want Central London, but East is significantly busier and always has been.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Pity Bexleyheath and Woolwich lines lose Charing Cross off peak trains, these are usually the busiest services, Charing Cross is far more of use than Cannon Street, not least for the SW connection at Waterloo, Woolwich and Abbey Wood do have CrossRail for the West End I guess I take it these will call at New Cross and St. John’s as well.

So 2 routes each 2tph. Fine, if you live halfway between the two and want Central London, but East is significantly busier and always has been.

Penge East to Central London is also faster than via Penge West, that line has gotten busier in recent years, pre covid a few Ken Coast trains would make calls at Penge East & Sydenham Hill, while an Orpington would sometimes skip those stations to spread the load out

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Pity Bexleyheath and Woolwich lines lose Charing Cross off peak trains, these are usually the busiest services, Charing Cross is far more of use than Cannon Street, not least for the SW connection at Waterloo, Woolwich and Abbey Wood do have CrossRail for the West End I guess I take it these will call at New Cross and St. John’s as well.



Penge East to Central London is also faster than via Penge West, that line has gotten busier in recent years, pre covid a few Ken Coast trains would make calls at Penge East & Sydenham Hill, while an Orpington would sometimes skip those stations to spread the load out

Looks like those extremely powerful Charlton lobbyists aren’t all that powerful. And any arguments that the North Kent demands a service to Charing Cross are nullified.

Bexleyheath and North Kent only to Cannon Street on the London Bridge side is fine by me. Changing at London Bridge is no chore.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Looks like those extremely powerful Charlton lobbyists aren’t all that powerful. And any arguments that the North Kent demands a service to Charing Cross are nullified.

Bexleyheath and North Kent only to Cannon Street on the London Bridge side is fine by me. Changing at London Bridge is no chore. The sooner people get it into their skulls that changing trains is quite alright, the better.

Well, there was also the Blackheath and Kidbrooke lobbyists not so long ago and now they haven’t got what they wanted either.

Still doesn’t take away the fact they Waterloo East and Charing Cross are far more useful than Cannon Street is

Also we’re not sure if there will even be a Blackheath-Woolwich service off peak yet, which isn’t good since it severs long standing local links.

 

[cle]

Well, there was also the Blackheath and Kidbrooke lobbyists not so long ago and now they haven’t got what they wanted either.

Still doesn’t take away the fact they Waterloo East and Charing Cross are far more useful than Cannon Street is

Also we’re not sure if there will even be a Blackheath-Woolwich service off peak yet, which isn’t good since it severs long standing local links.

Wondering now if anyone revisits the Sutton Loop lobbyists - if we are simplifying conflicts. That Rainham needs to move to bolster the Cannon X - Gravesend - X service back to a metro. It's fine to drop CX on a line if the frequency is good, in theory. LB was rebuilt to make changing better, and has been a success. Not to mention that Crossrail at Abbey Wood (and for Woolwich itself) give another link into the West End, so this change is perfectly acceptable now.

Cannon St is ostensibly Bank tube now too, with the new entrance (and Bank works!) so connectivity - even on a weekend, is not so shabby.

I've always liked the quirky peak Blackfriars services. Sidcup via Nunhead is def a curious one.

Finally, on Hayes - I do like the idea of weaning them off City service years in advance of a Bakerloo - get it all west-end focused.