December 2022 Timetable Changes

[Bletchleyite]

Not everything needs to be connected to a London terminal.

Given that that's the primary demand in the whole UK pretty much, there's a very good case that as much as is possible should be if it sensibly can be. This is certainly one example.

 

[Watershed]

Before there wasn’t a decent interchange available at London Bridge between CX and CS trains. Now there is.

Not everything needs to be connected to a London terminal. There are very good connections on the ELL.

You need an argument stronger than ‘because it’s always been this way’.

To be fair, if you moved to somewhere near those stations and work in the City, you'd be rightly miffed at losing your direct trains and having to now change twice.

 

[DA1]

I’m expecting an all day Cannon Street service via Lewisham on the North Kent (from Gravesend potentially). Obviously rumours will be rumours however.

Confirmed. Slowing creeping on to RTT. Will be semi fast between Dartford and Gravesend only stopping at Greenhithe.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Confirmed. Slowing creeping on to RTT. Will be semi fast between Dartford and Gravesend only stopping at Greenhithe.

Yeah that will be the service covering North Kent. Calls at St John's and new Cross if you are wondering.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Before there wasn’t a decent interchange available at London Bridge between CX and CS trains. Now there is.

Not everything needs to be connected to a London terminal. There are very good connections on the ELL.

You need an argument stronger than ‘because it’s always been this way’.

I mean, the nature of London means that being connected to a London terminal is pretty handy, you can have all the connections you want on the ELL it doesn’t replace London Bridge

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I mean, the nature of London means that being connected to a London terminal is pretty handy, you can have all the connections you want on the ELL it doesn’t replace London Bridge

But if I lived in Charlton I’d be really pleased I can now go to Whitechapel or Shoreditch easily (nice walk to the City) and then to places in the North. And I wouldn’t be annoyed at Charing Cross being available every 8-10 minutes with one change, and thus the same in reverse.

 

[cle]

Two barely used stations, close to others, lose a slow service to London Bridge. It's not such a tragedy.

They have a better frequency than ever before, and the high usage on all those stations (especially north of these two @ 8tph) reflects the ELL's better stock, tube-like feel and frequency. And its great connections. It's quicker to Docklands via Canada Water, and Shoreditch High Street is now the top end of the City ostensibly - plus its own massive destination for lesiure, and many creative industries. It's Central. Talk about connections to 'Islington' are a red herring here.

And now Whitechapel steps forward... wait until that has 24tph heading west (and routes east) - the ELL is a perfectly adequate sole line to have.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Two barely used stations, close to others, lose a slow service to London Bridge. It's not such a tragedy.

They have a better frequency than ever before, and the high usage on all those stations (especially north of these two @ 8tph) reflects the ELL's better stock, tube-like feel and frequency. And its great connections. It's quicker to Docklands via Canada Water, and Shoreditch High Street is now the top end of the City ostensibly - plus its own massive destination for lesiure, and many creative industries. It's Central. Talk about connections to 'Islington' are a red herring here.

And now Whitechapel steps forward... wait until that has 24tph heading west (and routes east) - the ELL is a perfectly adequate sole line to have.

I don’t think the people of Penge give two hoots as to whether their stock has a “tube like feel” people have a right to demand an easier journey you don’t seem to understand that not everyone wants the Docklands

 

[cle]

I don’t think the people of Penge give two hoots as to wHeather their stock has a “tube like feel” people have a right to demand an easier journey you don’t seem to understand that not everyone wants the Docklands

I didn't say they did either. But those factors are what do lead to increased use - along with frequency. That line was very under-utilized for local journeys until ELL basically took it over.

They can 'demand' all they want - I don't think you realize your outrage to these route changes in like howling at the moon, or that London has and will continue to evolve. As will transport offerings and connectivity across SE London - not everyone wants or needs London Bridge either. And they can easily get there if they do.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I didn't say they did either. But those factors are what do lead to increased use - along with frequency. That line was very under-utilized for local journeys until ELL basically took it over.

They can 'demand' all they want - I don't think you realize your outrage to these route changes in like howling at the moon, or that London has and will continue to evolve. As will transport offerings and connectivity across SE London - not everyone wants or needs London Bridge either. And they can easily get there if they do.

How can the people of Penge get to London Bridge easily now, changing at Sydenham could mean a half hour wait, changing at Canada Water means a cramped Jubilee line train, both mean an increase in journey times, not hard to see why locals would be unhappy about this

 

[Verulamius]

How can the people of Penge get to London Bridge easily now, changing at Sydenham could mean a half hour wait, changing at Canada Water means a cramped Jubilee line train, both mean an increase in journey times, not hard to see why locals would be unhappy about this

Walk to Crystal Palace?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

How can the people of Penge get to London Bridge easily now, changing at Sydenham could mean a half hour wait, changing at Canada Water means a cramped Jubilee line train, both mean an increase in journey times, not hard to see why locals would be unhappy about this

They are entitled to be unhappy, however this is public transport and has to balance overall needs relative to funding.

There are other stations in South London such as Wandsworth Road which have lost their direct services to London Terminals - people have an will adapt travel plans/habits.

 

[JonathanH]

How can the people of Penge get to London Bridge easily now, changing at Sydenham could mean a half hour wait, changing at Canada Water means a cramped Jubilee line train, both mean an increase in journey times, not hard to see why locals would be unhappy about this

Are you one of the people of Penge? (I'm not either for the record.) Why would they have a half hour wait at Sydenham? Wouldn't they catch the train that actually connects rather than the one which doesn't?

With Crystal Palace Park on one side of the station, there can't actually be many people for whom Penge West is their nearest station. Anerley is a short walk, admittedly with a hill, from Crystal Palace. The axing of Southern services really isn't the biggest hardship.

Which other route should Southern have axed to keep the stopping service from Penge West and Anerley at 6tph?

The extra stops in Thameslink services at South Croydon from December deal with the school connections mentioned in this thread.

 

[James90012]

Interestingly I did a journey plan on Google from London Bridge to Penge and it recommended Thameslink to Norwood Junction and doubling back to Penge with a 20 minute journey time including the wait at Norwood Junction. Anerley would be quicker via Norwood Junction. The remaining direct trains in the timetable take 19 minutes so on balance connectivity is still pretty good.

Norwood Junction becomes more important for interchange though and clearly the Brighton Main Line upgrade works proposed there would have improved that.

 

[berneyarms]

How can the people of Penge get to London Bridge easily now, changing at Sydenham could mean a half hour wait, changing at Canada Water means a cramped Jubilee line train, both mean an increase in journey times, not hard to see why locals would be unhappy about this

Well as it now involves a change, you would surely use the journey planners so that you don’t end up with 30 minute waits?

 

[NorthKent1989]

Are you one of the people of Penge? (I'm not either for the record.) Why would they have a half hour wait at Sydenham? Wouldn't they catch the train that actually connects rather than the one which doesn't?

With Crystal Palace Park on one side of the station, there can't actually be many people for whom Penge West is their nearest station. Anerley is a short walk, admittedly with a hill, from Crystal Palace. The axing of Southern services really isn't the biggest hardship.

Which other route should Southern have axed to keep the stopping service from Penge West and Anerley at 6tph?

The extra stops in Thameslink services at South Croydon from December deal with the school connections mentioned in this thread.

I’m not of Penge but do know of people who live there and I used to live there.

Well as it now involves a change, you would surely use the journey planners so that you don’t end up with 30 minute waits?

I was simply thinking of a scenario where one had somehow missed their connection

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I don’t think the people of Penge give two hoots as to whether their stock has a “tube like feel” people have a right to demand an easier journey you don’t seem to understand that not everyone wants the Docklands

Nobody is forcing them into it. But how would they previously have got to, say, Paddington? London Bridge, change, Baker Street, change, Paddington.

What of Docklands? Change at London Bridge, Jubilee line. Now it’s Shadwell, Canada Water or Whitechapel.

For the *actual* square mile, there’s Whitechapel or Shoreditch and a walk, or Crossrail, or the District / H&C. There’s also the frequency benefit.

You seem to live in a strange world where London Bridge is a true “destination” for the old South Central Metro and is a must, whilst London Bridge is simultaneously not truly a destination if it’s from Charlton or Woolwich.

And this, as it shall now be known, is the “North Kent Paradox”.

 

[mangyiscute]

I do think that there isn't much value given by some to the importance of direct services - obviously, we cannot provide a direct service for every single routing, and the cuts to Anerley and Penge West seem like the most sensible compromise for which trains to remove on the southern metro, but the removal of direct Charing X trains will be met with a lot of annoyance as while it might only be an extra 5 mins to change at London Bridge, people love the idea of a hassle-free journey, and a direct train helps this a lot. One of the biggest appeals train travel has is the comfort of being able to sit back and not have to worry about anything, and adding in a change removes this. When I hear non-enthusiasts talking about journeys, they will often describe them in terms of number of trains/changes rather than time taken as changing trains makes the journey seem a lot longer. I wouldn't be surprised if passengers from Reading and Shenfield use direct Elizabeth Line services into central London rather than the fast trains to Paddington/Liverpool Street respectively followed by a change, simply because people love a direct train.

 

[Bald Rick]

How can the people of Penge get to London Bridge easily now, changing at Sydenham could mean a half hour wait, changing at Canada Water means a cramped Jubilee line train, both mean an increase in journey times, not hard to see why locals would be unhappy about this

It would be interesting to know how many people:

1) have Anerley or Penge West as their closest station, and,
2) are not able to easily get to Crystal Palace, Sydenham or Birkbeck stations for a direct service (ie the extra walk to one of these is more than 5 minutes), and,
3) regularly travel to London Bridge as their destination station, ie not changing there for another service.

I’d be willing to bet it’s less than 100.

 

[PGAT]

It would be interesting to know how many people:

1) have Anerley or Penge West as their closest station, and,
2) are not able to easily get to Crystal Palace, Sydenham or Birkbeck stations for a direct service (ie the extra walk to one of these is more than 5 minutes), and,
3) regularly travel to London Bridge as their destination station, ie not changing there for another service.

I’d be willing to bet it’s less than 100.

So combined Anerley and Penge West get 1.686 million passengers annually. Assuming that’s every day travelling in both directions, that’s only 2310 passengers. Prior to the timetable, there was 2tph by Southern and 4 by LO, so for arguments sake let’s assume only 1/3 of the passengers wanted that London Bridge service. I know this isn’t the most accurate way to find the number but just deal with it. So after those calculations that’s 770 people that use that service in total. The previous time it took to run to London Bridge from these stations was 23 minutes. Now, including the time waiting at Norwood Junction the journey time is 19 minutes.

Now yes, those travelling to East Croydon do suffer, but they are a very small minority of people and don’t affect southern in terms of revenue.

Edit: forgot to take into account people travelling southbound: that would halve the passengers to 385. Passenger numbers are also 70% of pre-pandemic (which these numbers came from) so you can knock it down to 270. Good job Rick for being pretty spot on with that estimate.

Now onto part 2. Anerley is only 900 metres from Crystal Palace, or about 15 minutes walking distance (or a 5 minute bus journey if you’re that kind of guy) so pretty much every single one of those passengers can make it there, from which you can hop on a train anti-clockwise via Forest Hill or clockwise via Tulse Hill, for 4 tph total: doubling capacity.

Penge West is largely similar but it will probably take 5-10 minutes extra to get to Sydenham. Alternatively you can seek other options at Penge East. (In both of these cases going to Birkbeck is not necessary)

 

[Edsmith]

How can the people of Penge get to London Bridge easily now, changing at Sydenham could mean a half hour wait, changing at Canada Water means a cramped Jubilee line train, both mean an increase in journey times, not hard to see why locals would be unhappy about this

I agree completely, whatever way anyone wants to try and dress this up it's awful. Not only Anerley and Penge West lose the London Bridge service, stations New Cross Gate to Anerley lose a direct link to East Croydon and NXG to Sydenham only have 2tph to and from London Bridge, nobody wants to change at Canada Water.

 

[JonathanH]

nobody wants to change at Canada Water

Is that fact? What about Whitechapel?

 

[PGAT]

Is that fact? What about Whitechapel?

People change at Canada Water for the Jubilee line which Whitechapel doesn’t have. Though it does have crossrail and helpful links to the east.

 

[Edsmith]

Is that fact? What about Whitechapel?

Even worse, London Bridge is where most people want to go and there's various options for onward travel from there.

 

[Bald Rick]

People change at Canada Water for the Jubilee line which Whitechapel doesn’t have. Though it does have crossrail and helpful links to the east.

Not to mention west to Kings Cross St Pancras, Euston, etc.

 

[cle]

I do think that there isn't much value given by some to the importance of direct services - obviously, we cannot provide a direct service for every single routing, and the cuts to Anerley and Penge West seem like the most sensible compromise for which trains to remove on the southern metro, but the removal of direct Charing X trains will be met with a lot of annoyance as while it might only be an extra 5 mins to change at London Bridge, people love the idea of a hassle-free journey, and a direct train helps this a lot. One of the biggest appeals train travel has is the comfort of being able to sit back and not have to worry about anything, and adding in a change removes this. When I hear non-enthusiasts talking about journeys, they will often describe them in terms of number of trains/changes rather than time taken as changing trains makes the journey seem a lot longer. I wouldn't be surprised if passengers from Reading and Shenfield use direct Elizabeth Line services into central London rather than the fast trains to Paddington/Liverpool Street respectively followed by a change, simply because people love a direct train.

Are you alluding to the Charing X - London Bridge - Caterham/Southern services? Those are long gone, and nobody is moaning about those now. But people probably said that it was a long-standing link to the West End, much like they did on the Greenwich line. The network evolved and simplified, and things moved on.

Direct services are of course important, but these stations do now have an even 4tph to East and Central London (Shoreditch HS) - and as I mentioned, London has grown and changed a lot. Employment and other activities are scattered across new hubs and an enlarged centre. And radial links are performing incredibly well, per the success of London Overground and the DLR - which connect Londoners in many new ways.

The Jubilee line isn't that bad, and will free up a lot more once Crossrail beds in more and it's used for Canary Wharf (and Custom House/Woolwich/Abbey Wood as railheads - also crucially when Bond St opens for the Jubilee from the north) - it's 30+ tph. The Canada Water interchange is of course an issue. But the ELL also offers Whitechapel (and Shadwell too, also a faff)

 

[NorthKent1989]

I agree completely, whatever way anyone wants to try and dress this up it's awful. Not only Anerley and Penge West lose the London Bridge service, stations New Cross Gate to Anerley lose a direct link to East Croydon and NXG to Sydenham only have 2tph to and from London Bridge, nobody wants to change at Canada Water.

I do find it funny how people are supposed to put up and shut up and just accept a less than ideal commute or journey, the thing they don’t get is that the majority still work in central London and not the docklands, what use is the Docklands if you don’t work there? I do wonder if people who say we should put up and shut up, work regular hours, commuting in high peak, which can be very stressful.

The fact of the matter is post covid has proven one thing wrong, the West End is still a major draw for the majority of Londoners, the shops, cinemas, theatres, bars, museums, galleries, etc are all pretty much based in the West End.

You’re right though, Canada Water is an awful interchange and even with CrossRail the Jubilee line is still busy and rammed.

much like they did on the Greenwich line. The network evolved and simplified, and things moved on.

The loss of Charing Cross on that line is still felt, and it’s far from simple, Thameslink isn’t exactly reliable on that line.

I’d be willing to bet it’s less than 100.

I don’t know, still I don’t think things should be made inconvenient even if it’s just a minority.

 

[mangyiscute]

Are you alluding to the Charing X - London Bridge - Caterham/Southern services? Those are long gone, and nobody is moaning about those now. But people probably said that it was a long-standing link to the West End, much like they did on the Greenwich line. The network evolved and simplified, and things moved on.

Sorry I should've been clearer, I was referring to the fact that as I understand the Bexleyheath and Sidcup lines are going to have no direct Charing X off peak services when these are currently well used

 

[NorthKent1989]

but the removal of direct Charing X trains will be met with a lot of annoyance as while it might only be an extra 5 mins to change at London Bridge, people love the idea of a hassle-free journey,

It will be met with annoyance and it has already, I think people forget that railways are built for passengers and not for those who decide who should get what

Sorry I should've been clearer, I was referring to the fact that as I understand the Bexleyheath and Sidcup lines are going to have no direct Charing X off peak services when these are currently well used

The Sidcup will still get CX trains it’s the Woolwich and Bexleyheath that won’t get them.

 

[Class 170101]

I’m very aware London Bridge is a central terminal, The point i was making was that Penge West & Anerley are about to lose those trains and become London Overground services only.

I would have thought Shoreditch High Street might be closer but it would certainly be simplier in terms of platform choice and probably number of people using the station too.

Changing trains can add on journey times and can cause delays if a connection is missed.

Agree changing trains is a deterrent and has a journey time penalty.

Were the changes put out to public consultation or just imposed under the cover of covid cutbacks or other scheme?