December 2022 Timetable Changes

[Peregrine 4903]

Understand re Clapham but Southern is barely running anything up the slows and Palace at least has plenty of capacity for trains to turn back

Your right you could do Palace, but definitely not west Croydon or Clapham.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Your right you could do Palace, but definitely not west Croydon or Clapham.

You say that, but based on the current utilisation and the way that stuff goes across Norwood Fork / Gloucester Road, I believe paths were identified for an additional 2tph, but were never used due to the performance risk. The suggestion was always that when LO went to 20tph on the East London Line it would be 4tph to West Croydon, 6tph to Clapham Junction (although I think it was conceded 2tph of those would be Battersea Park) at peak, 6tph to Crystal Palace at peak and 4tph to New Cross.

That said, the only way to maintain suitable capacity was to have at least 2tph from London Bridge to Norwood Junction stopping, and the 2tph from London Bridge to Victoria.

Obviously things have changed and now the levels of capacity we needed pre-COVID have been amended, and you’ve short-sightedly had a government bin off the 455s, but the service cuts that are in place are excessive and savage.

The South London Metro area has undoubtedly been shafted in all of this.

 

[PGAT]

Once the croydon remodelling scheme is complete East Croydon could be possible

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Once the croydon remodelling scheme is complete East Croydon could be possible

Once that is completed it would potentially be sensible to segregate West Croydon to Norwood Junction flows as exclusively London Overground (if they can get 6tph, but unit numbers are higher for that than Palace) and then allow the stuff that comes down from Palace to Norwood Junction as ‘Southern’ to all head onwards to East Croydon. That way you can slide stuff without conflict at least in the down direction.

 

[JonathanH]

Once the croydon remodelling scheme is complete East Croydon could be possible

I wouldn't hold your breath on that one. Nothing suggests anything will be taken forward on that project now, certainly not in the near term.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I wouldn't hold your breath on that one. Nothing suggests anything will be taken forward on that project now, certainly not in the near term.

I thought CARS was still committed?

 

[cle]

New Cross is very useful for stock utilisation and providing emptier services for the ELL core.

Yes the frequency would be welcome to Clapham Junction and I believe Crystal Palace was the other spare 2tph - but will have to wait.

NXG is more of a hub (plus hoping one day faster trains and the Bakerloo make an appearance) - but without New Cross, the SE lines don’t have ELL access. It’s fairly well used, even if a bit innocuous.

Rainham just needs to become a Cannon St service and evened out. With all calls made between Abbey Wood and Dartford - huge housing growth along there. HS1 is the fast service for North Kent now.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

New Cross is very useful for stock utilisation and providing emptier services for the ELL core.

Yes the frequency would be welcome to Clapham Junction and I believe Crystal Palace was the other spare 2tph - but will have to wait.

NXG is more of a hub (plus hoping one day faster trains and the Bakerloo make an appearance) - but without New Cross, the SE lines don’t have ELL access. It’s fairly well used, even if a bit innocuous.

Rainham just needs to become a Cannon St service and evened out. With all calls made between Abbey Wood and Dartford - huge housing growth along there. HS1 is the fast service for North Kent now.

Agreed re: Thameslink going in the bin on the South Eastern. Either send it somewhere more sensible (such as Gillingham via Longfield), or just redeploy off region.

A nice, relatively even Cannon Street frequency on all services via Woolwich Arsenal would be grand. You could probably even dispense with the Blackheath to Charlton section off-peak (even peak) as people can easily DLR to Lewisham from Greenwich, go a different way using Crossrail, go via North Greenwich or take a bus from somewhere to Blackheath.

Let’s be real. How many people are using Blackheath or Lewisham direct from North Kent stations if the Blackheath interchange figures pre-covid are averaging 74 per day (so the equivalent of one double decker bus) and the overall journey start / end figures are almost certainly less than 150 per day.

 

[adrock1976]

Agreed re: Thameslink going in the bin on the South Eastern. Either send it somewhere more sensible (such as Gillingham via Longfield), or just redeploy off region.

A nice, relatively even Cannon Street frequency on all services via Woolwich Arsenal would be grand. You could probably even dispense with the Blackheath to Charlton section off-peak (even peak) as people can easily DLR to Lewisham from Greenwich, go a different way using Crossrail, go via North Greenwich or take a bus from somewhere to Blackheath.

Let’s be real. How many people are using Blackheath or Lewisham direct from North Kent stations if the Blackheath interchange figures pre-covid are averaging 74 per day (so the equivalent of one double decker bus) and the overall journey start / end figures are almost certainly less than 150 per day.

Regarding Lewisham - Blackheath, if there are to be no trains at all between the two (this is how I interpret the first part of the sentence "You could probably even dispense with the Blackheath to Charlton section off-peak (even peak)" etc), would there have to be a formal closure process being as no other passenger trains would use that section of track?

 

[JonathanH]

I thought CARS was still committed?

The Network Rail website https://www.networkrail.co.uk/runni...-main-line/unblocking-the-croydon-bottleneck/ says, and has said for some time the following.

Programme revision
Further development of CARS has been affected by issues such as the significant uncertainty about future passenger behaviour and demand following the COVID-19 pandemic and funding constraints following the Governments 2020 Spending Review.

Given the significant investment required to deliver this scheme, we are now taking time to consider how the pandemic may affect passenger behaviour and travel patterns in the future, and how any such changes should be reflected in infrastructure investments such as this.

It never reached the point where it was committed.

It is not listed as a project in the Government's Growth Plan.

The Growth Plan - Rail Projects

Governments fiscal event announcement released a document called The Growth Plan which refers to specific infrastructure projects for rail the list is. Nothing particularly new other than a commitment to accelerate delivery of the projects by a radical overhaul of the planning process. Kwarteng...

railforums.co.uk

 

[NorthKent1989]

Regarding Lewisham - Blackheath, if there are to be no trains at all between the two (this is how I interpret the first part of the sentence "You could probably even dispense with the Blackheath to Charlton section off-peak (even peak)" etc), would there have to be a formal closure process being as no other passenger trains would use that section of track?

There would be, and it’s no way they’ll axe the route, Lewisham is a big area of growth and employment and many areas along the Woolwich-Dartford corridor are linked to it for the first time in years.

Rainham just needs to become a Cannon St service and evened out. With all calls made between Abbey Wood and Dartford - huge housing growth along there. HS1 is the fast service for North Kent now

I’m no fan of Thameslink but that service isn’t going anywhere, if anything it should be re-routed to Lewisham, the Blackheath tunnel route is 2tph and an outlier to the other Dartford routes which has a consistent 4-6tph frequency.

HS1 is premium fare and takes people to the other side of London that’s not the West End, the interchange from HS1 to tube isn’t exactly quick at St. Pancras

 

[Barn]

Any news on when Southeastern plans to announce the changes?

 

[DA1]

Any news on when Southeastern plans to announce the changes?

From Monday. You can view most journeys in the national rail journey planner now though.

 

[Starmill]

The Network Rail website https://www.networkrail.co.uk/runni...-main-line/unblocking-the-croydon-bottleneck/ says, and has said for some time the following.


It never reached the point where it was committed.

It is not listed as a project in the Government's Growth Plan.

The Growth Plan - Rail Projects

Governments fiscal event announcement released a document called The Growth Plan which refers to specific infrastructure projects for rail the list is. Nothing particularly new other than a commitment to accelerate delivery of the projects by a radical overhaul of the planning process. Kwarteng...

railforums.co.uk

I don't think too much can be read into something not being specifically mentioned in the "Growth Plan" as it doesn't focus strongly on infrastructure at all and has been clearly been cobbled together in a hurry. However it has also been apparent since March 2020 that things like CARS are considered paused unless otherwise stated.

The reality is that the Rail Network Enhancement Pipeline was supposed to answer these questions at regular intervals, but the government has continued to refuse to publish one.

 

[Horizon22]

It would be interesting to know how many people:

1) have Anerley or Penge West as their closest station, and,
2) are not able to easily get to Crystal Palace, Sydenham or Birkbeck stations for a direct service (ie the extra walk to one of these is more than 5 minutes), and,
3) regularly travel to London Bridge as their destination station, ie not changing there for another service.

I’d be willing to bet it’s less than 100.

I used to be one of those people in 1) and also did 3) and continue further! However 2) did not apply as a walk to Crystal Palace was viable through the park normally being a nicer walk. It's a loss of convenience sure, but occasionally the Southern train would be missed and then it would be a same platform change anywhere between Sydenham and New Cross Gate. And of course this was before Whitchapel Elizbaeth line station opened.

Peak times pre-Covid they got reasonably busy before Sydenham, but not so much so compared to many London & SE routes.

I don't think a same platform change with a high frequency is a big hardship; in fact in rail terms its probnably the lightest - its pretty much what the Elizabeth Line will have from November for the forseeable future.

Once the croydon remodelling scheme is complete East Croydon could be possible

One of the reasons additional Thameslink through services didn't go to some of the Southern branches of course and instead a rather suboptimal service to Rainham.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

You say that, but based on the current utilisation and the way that stuff goes across Norwood Fork / Gloucester Road, I believe paths were identified for an additional 2tph, but were never used due to the performance risk. The suggestion was always that when LO went to 20tph on the East London Line it would be 4tph to West Croydon, 6tph to Clapham Junction (although I think it was conceded 2tph of those would be Battersea Park) at peak, 6tph to Crystal Palace at peak and 4tph to New Cross.

That said, the only way to maintain suitable capacity was to have at least 2tph from London Bridge to Norwood Junction stopping, and the 2tph from London Bridge to Victoria.

Obviously things have changed and now the levels of capacity we needed pre-COVID have been amended, and you’ve short-sightedly had a government bin off the 455s, but the service cuts that are in place are excessive and savage.

The South London Metro area has undoubtedly been shafted in all of this.

There will never be 6tph on the South London Line. Can't say more than that.

 

[Bald Rick]

I thought CARS was still committed?

It was never committed.

 

[PGAT]

It was never committed.

There was a public consultation that was extremely supported for, but I don’t think much has happened since

 

[Bald Rick]

There was a public consultation that was extremely supported for, but I don’t think much has happened since

oh I know, but a consultation with good support does not a commitment make.

 

[Goldfish62]

oh I know, but a consultation with good support does not a commitment make.

Indeed. Consultation is not a referendum, let alone a binding one.

 

[387star]

When did the Aberdeen to Penzance get curtailed at Plymouth? Right after The Guardian advertised it too!

 

[43172]

When did the Aberdeen to Penzance get curtailed at Plymouth? Right after The Guardian advertised it too!

CrossCountry reduced the number of services that serve Cornwall back in the March/April of 2020. The unit that used to operate the 0820 Aberdeen to Penzance would stay the night at Long Rock and form an early morning service to Glasgow Central leaving Penzance at 0630 (1S43) or 0837 (1S47) (though not sure which service), but since covid both 1S43 and 1S47 have started at Bristol TM.

The service still exists in the December 2022 timetable, but only runs to Penzance on a Saturday before heading to to Long Rock for the night, forming the 0930 service to Edinburgh (1S49) on the Sunday.

0820 Aberdeen to Penzance (1V60) Saturday only: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C71083/2023-01-07/detailed

 

[bicbasher]

Exactly, New Cross has never been that much of a major interchange compared to Greenwich, Lewisham, Woolwich and now Abbey Wood, so anyone suggesting New Cross will be a major draw now is mistaken, it’s range as you say stretches to Deptford and maybe Greenwich.

In all honesty, if I lived between New Cross and Deptford Bridge DLR, I'd be more likely to use the DLR to get into London, changing at Heron Quays for the Jubilee at Canary Wharf. Even for local journeys to Surrey Quays/Canada Water, there's a more regular service from NXG which has capacity off-peak or the 225 bus from New Cross or the 47 from Deptford Bridge.

 

[Edsmith]

Regarding Lewisham - Blackheath, if there are to be no trains at all between the two (this is how I interpret the first part of the sentence "You could probably even dispense with the Blackheath to Charlton section off-peak (even peak)" etc), would there have to be a formal closure process being as no other passenger trains would use that section of track?

I don't think there is any suggestion that the line will close.

 

[dk1]

I don't think there is any suggestion that the line will close.

Of course there isn’t lol.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I don't think there is any suggestion that the line will close.

Of course there isn’t lol.

Some here think it should be, which is ridiculous considering how popular and well used this link is, and how big Lewisham is getting as well, I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if more trains went to Lewisham in the coming years

In all honesty, if I lived between New Cross and Deptford Bridge DLR, I'd be more likely to use the DLR to get into London, changing at Heron Quays for the Jubilee at Canary Wharf. Even for local journeys to Surrey Quays/Canada Water, there's a more regular service from NXG which has capacity off-peak or the 225 bus from New Cross or the 47 from Deptford Bridge.

New Cross Gate has always been the busier of the two stations in that area, it’s more centrally placed too near the university and the shops, the DLR at Deptford is quicker to Canary Wharf than a ELL to Shadwell then DLR to Canary Wharf.

New Cross is probably only really as useful interchange for passengers coming from the Grove Park or Hayes lines who want the East End but certainly not for those on the Blackheath or Sidcup lines which are connected to either Lewisham or near enough to Woolwich, Abbey Wood or North Greenwich.

 

[ScotGG]

Cutting the link from Woolwich and Charlton to Lewisham would be acceptable perhaps if South Eastern fares were on the TfL pay scale so no surcharge to change to DLR. It isn't and there is.

Lewisham is seeing major changes including a cinema being built so will retain and increase its appeal.

Also, the only direct bus from Woolwich and Charlton to Lewisham has recently been cut so the train is even more appealing.

 

[Edsmith]

Cutting the link from Woolwich and Charlton to Lewisham would be acceptable perhaps if South Eastern fares were on the TfL pay scale so no surcharge to change to DLR. It isn't and there is.

Lewisham is seeing major changes including a cinema being built so will retain and increase its appeal.

Also, the only direct bus from Woolwich and Charlton to Lewisham has recently been cut so the train is even more appealing.

There is still the 54 and 380 between Woolwich and Lewisham via Charlton and the 122 and 178 via other routes.

If the service via Woolwich Arsenal is being reduced to 4tph following the opening of Crossrail either the Charlton to Blackheath service goes or the service via Greenwich is reduced to 2tph.

 

[MikeWh]

Cutting the link from Woolwich and Charlton to Lewisham would be acceptable perhaps if South Eastern fares were on the TfL pay scale so no surcharge to change to DLR. It isn't and there is.

If you use PAYG then there is no difference when using the DLR. Plumstead to Lewisham NR is the same price as Plumstead to Lewisham DLR.

 

[NorthKent1989]

There are still buses from Woolwich to Lewisham, but the 180 which was the main route between Lewisham, Charlton, Woolwich and Abbey Wood was rerouted to North Greenwich for some bizarre reason which cut the valuable link between Abbey Wood & Lewisham.

The train is the only link between Abbey Wood and eastward to Slade Green & Lewisham, I seriously doubt they’ll axe that service, it’ll cost more to do close that link than it does to keep the link running.

And as someone said Lewisham is rapidly becoming South East London’s answer to Stratford in the coming years with a new cinema, new nightlife venues and a completely new shot centre, to reduce links to Lewisham serves no purpose.