December 2022 Timetable Changes

[Edsmith]

There are still buses from Woolwich to Lewisham, but the 180 which was the main route between Lewisham, Charlton, Woolwich and Abbey Wood was rerouted to North Greenwich for some bizarre reason which cut the valuable link between Abbey Wood & Lewisham.

The train is the only link between Abbey Wood and eastward to Slade Green & Lewisham, I seriously doubt they’ll axe that service, it’ll cost more to do close that link than it does to keep the link running.

And as someone said Lewisham is rapidly becoming South East London’s answer to Stratford in the coming years with a new cinema, new nightlife venues and a completely new shot centre, to reduce links to Lewisham serves no purpose.

The line certainly won't close between Blackheath and Charlton, probably have a few peak hour trains and a diversionary route and empty stock movements. The Cannon Street circular will provide a link between Abbey Wood and Lewisham via Bexleyheath although it will take longer, alternatively change at Greenwich to the DLR to Lewisham.

 

[James H]

A local magazine in Eltham has started a petition and has already gained 1,300 signatures

https://www.change.org/p/save-our-se9-train-services

This is a much-valued service for local residents visiting central London for business, employment and leisure and essential for those with mobility issues.

 

[markyl]

The Department of Transport have denied in writing they have had a hand in the reduction of SE Services

"You have also requested any approved requirements prescribed by the Department to Southeastern concerning cost reductions in the operating of train services when comparing the December 2022 timetable to the current timetable and the required volume of train service reductions for the network and main timetabled routes.

The Department can confirm that the current timetable for Southeastern is the May 2022 timetable and the Department has not placed requirements or prescribed cost reductions in the operating cost of train services comparing the December 2022 to the May 2022 timetables. The Department has also not placed requirements on Southeastern for a volume of train service reduction on the network nor the timetabled routes"

Links -

Freedom of Information

Full Letter

 

[NorthKent1989]

The line certainly won't close between Blackheath and Charlton, probably have a few peak hour trains and a diversionary route and empty stock movements. The Cannon Street circular will provide a link between Abbey Wood and Lewisham via Bexleyheath although it will take longer, alternatively change at Greenwich to the DLR to Lewisham.

Or just keep the service as it is? If it ain’t broke why fix it? It’s a quick useful link, that is valued and busy

 

[Class 466]

Pretty much everything for Southeastern is uploaded now.

 

[Barn]

There is still the 54 and 380 between Woolwich and Lewisham via Charlton and the 122 and 178 via other routes.

If the service via Woolwich Arsenal is being reduced to 4tph following the opening of Crossrail either the Charlton to Blackheath service goes or the service via Greenwich is reduced to 2tph.

The Southeastern service via Greenwich is indeed dropping to 2tph, but remember there is also a 2tph Thameslink service.

The overall service seems to be:

- 4tph at Deptford, Greenwich, Maze Hill, Westcombe Park, Woolwich Dockyard, Belvedere and Erith

- 6tph at Charlton, Woolwich Arsenal, Plumstead, Abbey Wood and Slade Green.

I am curious about the overall reduction through London Bridge and the effect in hindsight on the business case for the Thameslink Programme and station redevelopment.

 

[carriageline]

seems the 2L** and 2A** have returned, but going to Cannon St

 

[Clarence Yard]

The Department of Transport have denied in writing they have had a hand in the reduction of SE Services

"You have also requested any approved requirements prescribed by the Department to Southeastern concerning cost reductions in the operating of train services when comparing the December 2022 timetable to the current timetable and the required volume of train service reductions for the network and main timetabled routes.

The Department can confirm that the current timetable for Southeastern is the May 2022 timetable and the Department has not placed requirements or prescribed cost reductions in the operating cost of train services comparing the December 2022 to the May 2022 timetables. The Department has also not placed requirements on Southeastern for a volume of train service reduction on the network nor the timetabled routes"

Links -

Freedom of Information

Full Letter

Wrong question asked, allowing the DfT to wriggle. To keep their hands publicly clean, they don’t prescribe reductions - they “let” the TOC come to them with suggestions, which they then approve or not.

If the questioner had asked whether they had approved or anticipate approving any reductions for the December 2022 New Standard Hour Timetable, they would have had to answer a bit more in the affirmative.

The DfT have already given their opinion to both SE and NR, to allow them to develop the December 2022 timetable, so the “nothing to do with us” approach really doesn’t wash.

 

[Class 466]

A full page on all the changes:

Timetable updates | Southeastern

www.southeasternrailway.co.uk

First Class is also going, although this isn't really a surprise given it's pretty much always empty.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps time for LNR to do the same given that it's inferior to Standard and will be on the 730s too! And Southern where it's the same as Standard. So this was a good choice.

 

[Kite159]

Perhaps time for LNR to do the same given that it's inferior to Standard and will be on the 730s too! And Southern where it's the same as Standard. So this was a good choice.

Agreed, afterall they declassified it for a period during Covid (for LNR).

I noticed that the Medway Valley line is getting cut back to Paddock Wood most of the day, rather than running onwards to Tonbridge.

 

[Class 466]

Agreed, afterall they declassified it for a period during Covid (for LNR).

I noticed that the Medway Valley line is getting cut back to Paddock Wood most of the day, rather than running onwards to Tonbridge.

Cut back, but extended 2tph to Paddock Wood so an improvement I'd say, will require a 4th unit to be out all day as well as more traincrew.

 

[03_179]

I have had a bit of a look through the thread and have a couple questions.

Looking at RTT there are times in for March 2023 Euston to Glasgow Central. Are these part of the DEC timetable already in?

Also are there any major changes to the Scotrail timetables out of Glasgow for the new Dec 2022 timetable ?

Will there be any changes to the ECML for either LNER, Lumo, Grand Central or Hull Trains ?

 

[30907]

I have had a bit of a look through the thread and have a couple questions.

Looking at RTT there are times in for March 2023 Euston to Glasgow Central. Are these part of the DEC timetable already in?

Also are there any major changes to the Scotrail timetables out of Glasgow for the new Dec 2022 timetable ?

Will there be any changes to the ECML for either LNER, Lumo, Grand Central or Hull Trains ?

Here is your friend (bear in mind they refer to the May timetable, especially for Avanti!):
https://live-departures.info/rail/timetable-comparison/

 

[03_179]

Here is your friend (bear in mind they refer to the May timetable, especially for Avanti!):
https://live-departures.info/rail/timetable-comparison/

Excellent thanks

 

[brad465]

A full page on all the changes:

Timetable updates | Southeastern

www.southeasternrailway.co.uk

First Class is also going, although this isn't really a surprise given it's pretty much always empty.

Not to mention First Class is also not really a quality improvement on standard for all SE stock, especially on 375s where it's in the middle and/or not closed off in a quieter spot. Presumably all the stock is being refurbished accordingly, can this be done at SE depots?

 

[Class 466]

Not to mention First Class is also not really a quality improvement on standard for all SE stock, especially on 375s where it's in the middle and/or not closed off in a quieter spot. Presumably all the stock is being refurbished accordingly, can this be done at SE depots?

What do you mean by refurbished? all they'll do is peel off the stickers and remove the antimacassars from the seat headrests.

 

[350401]

The Bromley North branch line has had it's 3tph operations hours extended to cover more of the morning peak - between 6-10am, and the connections to the London bound trains seem to have slightly improved compared to the current times when it runs at 3tph. Sadly, the evening peak is still 2tph.

When running at 2tph, all the connections are designed to connect very well with the Charing Cross services, but the price for this is that the connections to the Cannon Street to Orpington services are very poor - generally around 24 minutes connection time. For example, in the evening peaks trains leave Cannon Street at xx.28/58, and arriving xx.49/xx.19 - leaving a good 24 minutes to hang around at Grove Park, or get the 162/126 bus, which duplicates the line. This will put off city commuters - with services now (well) designed around the West End, rather than the City. 1 change at Grove Park is fine, changing twice at London Bridge or walking 20 minutes from the office makes it a right faff to use. Southeastern are fortunate that the competing TFL bus service is so slow and unreliable, and that the morning peak connections seem reasonable.

The service has also reverted to 2tph on Saturdays, rather than 3tph - removing an anomaly where the Saturday service was better than the weekday service. These again connect very nicely with the Charing Cross services, making it an attractive service for the weekend.

 

[brad465]

What do you mean by refurbished? all they'll do is peel off the stickers and remove the antimacassars from the seat headrests.

So in a way what will happen is that 375s and 465/9s will be like one end of the 377s (and the 166s on GWR even), standard class throughout but one area that's a bit nicer will exist where first class used to.

 

[swt_passenger]

What do you mean by refurbished? all they'll do is peel off the stickers and remove the antimacassars from the seat headrests.

Are there also partitions and doors to remove - if they are to do the most thorough job possible?

 

[JonathanH]

Are there also partitions and doors to remove - if they are to do the most thorough job possible?

No non-standard partitions to first class on Southeastern 375s, just the 377/5 fleet.

The first class seats have a slightly more contoured headrest but are otherwise the same as the standard class seats.

In the 465/9 and 375/9 fleet, standard class seats are in a 3+2 pattern, so it might be possible to reseat the first class areas.

 

[brad465]

No non-standard partitions to first class on Southeastern 375s, just the 377/5 fleet.

The first class seats have a slightly more contoured headrest but are otherwise the same as the standard class seats.

In the 465/9 and 375/9 fleet, standard class seats are in a 3+2 pattern, so it might be possible to reseat the first class areas.

On a 465/9 there are also arm rests and a small table similar to the 375/9's table in first class.

 

[Barn]

As I feared, changing Charing Cross services to stopping Cannon Street services means that there are 'useless' departures from London Bridge to the North Kent Line stations.

The xx:16 and xx:46 departures from London Bridge (via New Cross) arrive at Charlton and subsequent stations after the later xx:18 and xx:48 departures (via Greenwich). This will distort loadings from London Bridge.

 

[Kite159]

So in a way what will happen is that 375s and 465/9s will be like one end of the 377s (and the 166s on GWR even), standard class throughout but one area that's a bit nicer will exist where first class used to.

The first class area on the 375/6-8 subclasses were moved a few years ago when they got refurbished and made blue. Previously FC was behind the cabs but now it's in a centre coach. Similar to the 350s on LNR, but without any doors or divides.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

There are still buses from Woolwich to Lewisham, but the 180 which was the main route between Lewisham, Charlton, Woolwich and Abbey Wood was rerouted to North Greenwich for some bizarre reason which cut the valuable link between Abbey Wood & Lewisham.

The train is the only link between Abbey Wood and eastward to Slade Green & Lewisham, I seriously doubt they’ll axe that service, it’ll cost more to do close that link than it does to keep the link running.

And as someone said Lewisham is rapidly becoming South East London’s answer to Stratford in the coming years with a new cinema, new nightlife venues and a completely new shot centre, to reduce links to Lewisham serves no purpose.

I think you overplay the role of the 180 in years gone by, and the state of Lewisham in the future. As discussed, there is no fare penalty to going on the DLR from Greenwich and almost no real time penalty if you factor in a bad half-hourly service that most people don’t like due to potential long waits after missed services / connections.

You also don’t have to ‘close’ the route. You send the first down and last up train of the day on a weekday that way and Robert is most certainly your parent’s brother.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Or just keep the service as it is? If it ain’t broke why fix it? It’s a quick useful link, that is valued and busy

I would really like a breakdown between the numbers of people who use it from a station Slade Green <> Charlton and Blackheath / Lewisham, and how many find it as the first service to a London terminal and just get on it.

You also can’t reliably, with Covid and such, say how much that has changed when it went from the only London service for some stations in the days pre-High Speed, to a service that was then much longer than High Speed, as a semi-fast to an all stopper with no direct connection therefore Lewisham / Blackheath to the likes of Gravesend and Greenhithe.

All in, it wasn’t a “busy service”. It usually ended up just being a supplementary service for Lewisham and Blackheath, and therefore it will not be at all missed. This change actually is very positive, in so much as it means you either use it to go to Blackheath / Lewisham, or you take any service to London Bridge and change, spreading capacity and people.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I think you overplay the role of the 180 in years gone by, and the state of Lewisham in the future. As discussed, there is no fare penalty to going on the DLR from Greenwich and almost no real time penalty if you factor in a bad half-hourly service that most people don’t like due to potential long waits after missed services / connections.

You also don’t have to ‘close’ the route. You send the first down and last up train of the day on a weekday that way and Robert is most certainly your parent’s brother.

I don’t think I’ve overplayed the role the 180 played in linking busy areas, it was a major trunk route.

Lewisham is literally being regenerated with new apartments, a cinema a new shopping centre and possibly even a potential Bakerloo interchange, I think it is you who is underplaying the development of Lewisham.

I would really like a breakdown between the numbers of people who use it from a station Slade Green <> Charlton and Blackheath / Lewisham, and how many find it as the first service to a London terminal and just get on it.

You also can’t reliably, with Covid and such, say how much that has changed when it went from the only London service for some stations in the days pre-High Speed, to a service that was then much longer than High Speed, as a semi-fast to an all stopper with no direct connection therefore Lewisham / Blackheath to the likes of Gravesend and Greenhithe.

All in, it wasn’t a “busy service”. It usually ended up just being a supplementary service for Lewisham and Blackheath, and therefore it will not be at all missed. This change actually is very positive, in so much as it means you either use it to go to Blackheath / Lewisham, or you take any service to London Bridge and change, spreading capacity and people.

You can’t keep using covid, people are going back to work, the “covid lifestyle” is over people, are travelling again, work from home is basically at its minimum at this point, let’s stop pretending we are in covid times.

It may be only been half hourly but I don’t get why you insist on breaking links that many do use in favour of constantly changing trains, believe it or not some people do prefer direct links.

 

[Timmyd]

On a 465/9 there are also arm rests and a small table similar to the 375/9's table in first class.

The 465/9s have been mostly used on suburban services for a number of years now, I can’t imagine they’d change the seating

 

[WizCastro197]

Any Indication to when Lumo timetable may be out? Apologies if it has already been talked about


It is a great start for southeastern to remove First Class hopefully Southern takes some hints and follows suit within the coming years

 

[hexagon789]

Any Indication to when Lumo timetable may be out? Apologies if it has already been talked about

The provisional timetable looks exactly the same to me for LUMO