December 2023 Timetable Change

[Bald Rick]

Ah thanks. Is Saturday still solely 2tph?

Assume it'll eventually be a full 3tph all day?

No, its pretty similar to weekdays.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

No, start and end of service is unchanged.

Poor.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Poor.

May as be but it’s not what the specifiers/funders (DfT) wanted to buy. GWR has done pretty well to get this change which will benefit many over the line, although I understand it had to be cost neutral so some of the Didcot to Oxford local services have been withdrawn to offset the additional mileage between Redhill and Gatwick. That gives an example of how under scrutiny costs are and why it isn’t possible to justify additional round trips over the entire line at the moment.

 

[td97]

FOI for Northern LTPs, noticeable changes with transfer swaps on 331s, no more 319s and more incoming 323s from WMT.

Train diagrams for December 2023 to June 2024 - a Freedom of Information request to Northern Trains Limited

Is it possible you could send me the train diagrams for December 2023 to June 2024 Yours faithfully, sean white

www.whatdotheyknow.com

The diagramming for Blackpool to Manchester is ideal as the (always full and standing) am peaks towards Manchester and pm peaks towards Preston are formed from the same diagrams. And fortunately these are booked 6 cars.

 

[Bald Rick]

Poor.

I woudlnt describe a 5 hour gap in service overnight, on a secondary route to the airport as ‘poor’. The first arrival into Gatwick from the north downs is before 0600. The last departure to the North Downs is 2322. That covers the vast majority of flights.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I woudlnt describe a 5 hour gap in service overnight, on a secondary route to the airport as ‘poor’. The first arrival into Gatwick from the north downs is before 0600. The last departure to the North Downs is 2322. That covers the vast majority of flights.

A half twelve departure to Reading would be very much welcomed by many, I’m sure

 

[Park47515]

A half twelve departure to Reading would be very much welcomed by many, I’m sure

Would be a bus to Reigate for half the year...

 

[JonathanH]

Would be a bus to Reigate for half the year...

No. The Quarry line tends to be shut overnight, rather than the route via Redhill. There is a 0041 from Gatwick to Redhill each night, which goes on to Bedford, and the Turbo off the last North Downs arrival heads north empty to Redhill at 0111.

You are of course right that it would cause more issues with overnight closures.

For the next few months there are quite a few overnight closures of Reading to Guildford, resulting in the early train from Reading starting at Guildford.

 

[Class 170101]

But I do wonder how many GW services will actually reach Gatwick in practise, lots of four minute turnarounds at Gatwick I see.

Realtime Trains | Departures from Gatwick Airport between 0200 and 0159 on 16/12/2023

Train information at Gatwick Airport between 0200 and 0159 on 16/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Also some interesting timings on this train, which looks to have a zero minute turnaround at Gatwick for its next working currently.

Realtime Trains | 1O53 0531 Reading to Gatwick Airport | 15/12/2023

Real-time train running information for 1O53 0531 departure from Reading to Gatwick Airport on 15/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[HamworthyGoods]

A half twelve departure to Reading would be very much welcomed by many, I’m sure

But clearly doesn’t bring enough revenue I’m afraid to make a business case to the dft.

 

[Falcon1200]

some of the Didcot to Oxford local services have been withdrawn to offset the additional mileage between Redhill and Gatwick

Perhaps that was the real reason for the addition of Didcot stops on the Paddington/Oxford expresses?

 

[Llandudno]

I woudlnt describe a 5 hour gap in service overnight, on a secondary route to the airport as ‘poor’. The first arrival into Gatwick from the north downs is before 0600. The last departure to the North Downs is 2322. That covers the vast majority of flights.

But does it though?

2 hour check in means that you can’t use this route for planes departing before 0800

Mind you I am not sure I would risk travelling by train to the airport for an early morning flight, well certainly I wouldn’t risk it to a north of England airport…!

 

[JonathanH]

2 hour check in means that you can’t use this route for planes departing before 0800

A few people using early flights arrive at the airport just before 0100. Not ideal, but the check in desks open after a few hours.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

But I do wonder how many GW services will actually reach Gatwick in practise, lots of four minute turnarounds at Gatwick I see.

Realtime Trains | Departures from Gatwick Airport between 0200 and 0159 on 16/12/2023

Train information at Gatwick Airport between 0200 and 0159 on 16/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Also some interesting timings on this train, which looks to have a zero minute turnaround at Gatwick for its next working currently.

Realtime Trains | 1O53 0531 Reading to Gatwick Airport | 15/12/2023

Real-time train running information for 1O53 0531 departure from Reading to Gatwick Airport on 15/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

The 4 minute turnarounds are no different to now - and the vast majority make it through. There is a very slick operation by the platform staff at Gatwick to get it turned round - last time I was there, it took less than 3 mins to get a slightly delayed inbound service away right-time.

 

[GoneSouth]

The

The 4 minute turnarounds are no different to now - and the vast majority make it through. There is a very slick operation by the platform staff at Gatwick to get it turned round - last time I was there, it took less than 3 mins to get a slightly delayed inbound service away right-time.

Been turfed off more times than I’d like at Redhill myself because of late running, and more annoyingly I’ve turned up at Gatwick with plenty of time to make the Reading train only to fine it starting from Redhill, caught the next train to try to make the connection only to see it leave as we arrive into Redhill. I’d rather go via London now the Elizabeth line speeds you to Paddington from Farringdon

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

The

Been turfed off more times than I’d like at Redhill myself because of late running, and more annoyingly I’ve turned up at Gatwick with plenty of time to make the Reading train only to fine it starting from Redhill, caught the next train to try to make the connection only to see it leave as we arrive into Redhill. I’d rather go via London now the Elizabeth line speeds you to Paddington from Farringdon

Yes, it has happened to me too while en-route to Gatwick with luggage. Unfortunately there will always be a delay threshold that results in short turn back - I suspect even if there was a 20 minute turnround, the BML regulation policies are so strict (i.e. Nothing Must Delay Thameslink) that something out of path would still get turned short anyway.

The paths & turnround are pretty efficient to resource so the plus side of things is that it supports the financial viability of the route as a whole, which is rather important in the current political climate.

 

[mangyiscute]

The 4 minute turnarounds are no different to now - and the vast majority make it through. There is a very slick operation by the platform staff at Gatwick to get it turned round - last time I was there, it took less than 3 mins to get a slightly delayed inbound service away right-time.

Plus they usually have a decent amount of time at Redhill, I think the turnaround is so short at Gatwick because platform space there is very valuable so it means the train will never be standing there for long. Then if it is late, it usually can catch up at least 5 mins by the time it gets to Reigate.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Nov 2023 ==

Perhaps that was the real reason for the addition of Didcot stops on the Paddington/Oxford expresses?

From my point of view adding these stops to the Paddington to Oxford service in order to use one less turbo around Oxford is a much better use of resources and if it is what's allowing the much better service on the North Downs Line, then this is a great change they've implemented. The only disappointment is that on the trains towards London, the services from Worcester are the ones that stop at Didcot since this is the only way to prevent having a turbo sitting in Didcot for ages but overall it's a far better timetable than before.

 

[infobleep]

The

Been turfed off more times than I’d like at Redhill myself because of late running, and more annoyingly I’ve turned up at Gatwick with plenty of time to make the Reading train only to fine it starting from Redhill, caught the next train to try to make the connection only to see it leave as we arrive into Redhill. I’d rather go via London now the Elizabeth line speeds you to Paddington from Farringdon

At least if it happens from December, on Monday to Saturday for most hours you will only need to wait 30 minutes for the next train. Admittedly now you can get a train 3 minutes later to Redhill, assuming it's not cancelled.

I am occasionally surprised when a late running NDL train isn't turned back short.

 

[FenMan]

Would I be correct in saying the (very welcome) changes on the NDL use 769 timings, hence the mysterious (to me) waits at Guildford? I think I've seen somewhere that the timetable will be tidied up next May using Turbo timings, but could be imagining things?!

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Would I be correct in saying the (very welcome) changes on the NDL use 769 timings, hence the mysterious (to me) waits at Guildford? I think I've seen somewhere that the timetable will be tidied up next May using Turbo timings, but could be imagining things?!

The December timetable still utilises 769 sectional timings. The waits at Guildford are simply pathing-related; the NDL services having to dovetail between Portsmouth line SWR services.

The June timetable is currently being prepared by Network Rail so there isn’t yet confirmation but my understanding is that Turbo timings will be used - whether this materially affects anything or not remains to be seen.

 

[Eoch]

Niche I know, but it looks like Newhaven Harbour gets back an hourly service Monday - Friday, with service every 30 minutes in the peak

They have done that by making the trains not stopping at Southease, stop at Newhaven Harbour instead. Trains will alternate between calling at Southease and Newhaven Harbour. They have reduce weekend service to hourly as well.

 

[Bald Rick]

A half twelve departure to Reading would be very much welcomed by many, I’m sure

As would, no doubt, departures after 2330 to Lewes and anywhere east of there, and Worthing, Littlehampton, Bognor, Chichester, Portsmouth or anywhere south and west of Horsham. But they don’t. Why should Guidford and Reading be any different?

 

[Horizon22]

A half twelve departure to Reading would be very much welcomed by many, I’m sure

Probably get to Reading about 0200. Most last arrivals at even London Terminals are before then - let alone the train being able to run on any event of engineering works across 2 routes.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Probably get to Reading about 0200. Most last arrivals at even London Terminals are before then - let alone the train being able to run on any event of engineering works across 2 routes.

Without onward connections I suspect the only real markets that would be served would be the late night ‘beer jolly’ and whatever 24hr commuting exists for staff working at Gatwick Airport itself.

 

[JonathanH]

whatever 24hr commuting exists for staff working at Gatwick Airport itself

Catered for already by night buses to Crawley, Horley and Redhill, and the existing railway service. Realistically Airport commuting is only local in nature.

Without onward connections I suspect the only real markets that would be served would be the late night ‘beer jolly’

Indeed, although the low cost carriers do have arrivals not served by the current service.

However, even the current last train on the North Downs only has connections to the Portsmouth line from Guildford, Aldershot and Farnham via Ash Vale, Didcot, Oxford, Twyford, Maidenhead and Slough, in addition to the directly served stations.

 

[Minstral25]

A half twelve departure to Reading would be very much welcomed by many, I’m sure

Actually I think a 23:20 service from Guildford that would form this departure would be welcomed by far more passengers.

The gap from 22:21 to 00:23 needs filling, especially as most evening shows in Guildford finish around 22:30.

 

[Class 170101]

As would, no doubt, departures after 2330 to Lewes and anywhere east of there, and Worthing, Littlehampton, Bognor, Chichester, Portsmouth or anywhere south and west of Horsham. But they don’t. Why should Guidford and Reading be any different?

Isn't The Redhill to Reading via Guildford a 24 hour route for (Channel Tunnel) freight though?

 

[JonathanH]

Isn't The Redhill to Reading via Guildford a 24 hour route for (Channel Tunnel) freight though?

No. There is no freight that runs between Redhill and Reading via Guildford. Essentially, the only non passenger trains are overnight movements of track plant, typically to and from Woking, and rail head treatment trains.

The need to reverse at Redhill is a major hindrance as regards the Channel Tunnel, and it doesn't really link anywhere that can't be reached using a more convenient route.

 

[infobleep]

Actually I think a 23:20 service from Guildford that would form this departure would be welcomed by far more passengers.

The gap from 22:21 to 00:23 needs filling, especially as most evening shows in Guildford finish around 22:30.

That would indeed be welcomed by others. Not that I have a need of it.

Just as I'm sure people going out in London welcome the 0:33/0:40 Waterloo to Guildford services that run. The time of it depends on the day of the week.

 

[cactustwirly]

Without onward connections I suspect the only real markets that would be served would be the late night ‘beer jolly’ and whatever 24hr commuting exists for staff working at Gatwick Airport itself.

And a lot of flight arrivals, Gatwick has no curfew so has a lot flights landing between 11 and 1am