December 2024 timetable change

[newtownmgr]

Any chance the 22:22 from Birmingham New Street to Leicester can be made any later? This is the last train.

You need to ask the company that runs it, not on here.

 

[ScotGG]

No it doesn't. Norwich-Ely already has 2tph and Ely-Cambridge 4tph. What is needed are longer trains, better connections for Cambridge at Ely in and out of the EMR trains, and peak time trains running through to/from Stansted. The last of these will become very important once Cambridge South opens next year.

The railway has to break away from the default response that increased demand means running more short trains, which are an incredibly wasteful use of train paths, especially in the Ely area.


Attleborough to Cambridge takes an hour, not many will be doing that commute.

I know four people doing that commute! Anecdotal I know but the busyness of existing trains will attest it's a growing trend.

Cambridge is extremely expensive for housing and constrained for new dwellings (this is widely covered) while being a major centre of employment. An hour commute for people is standard and those I know doing it moved from London. It's expected.

Stating Norwich to Ely is already 2 tph ignores that one of the two doesnt stop at fast growing towns such as Attleborough. There's plenty of population growth and scope for filling two trains once Ely is sorted. Take a look at relevant Local Plans and housing proposals. We're not talking 100 homes. More like many thousands at stations between Norwich and Ely that the EMR skips leaving 1tph. Pretty much new towns along the line.

 

[Magdalia]

I know four people doing that commute! Anecdotal I know but the busyness of existing trains will attest it's a growing trend.

Cambridge is extremely expensive for housing and constrained for new dwellings (this is widely covered) while being a major centre of employment. An hour commute for people is standard and those I know doing it moved from London. It's expected.

Stating Norwich to Ely is already 2 tph ignores that one of the two doesnt stop at fast growing towns such as Attleborough. There's plenty of population growth and scope for filling two trains once Ely is sorted. Take a look at relevant Local Plans and housing proposals. We're not talking 100 homes. More like many thousands at stations between Norwich and Ely that the EMR skips leaving 1tph. Pretty much new towns along the line.

Ely isn't going to be sorted any time soon. From a Cambridge perspective the number of commuters from Attleborough is a drop in the bucket.

The most recent EWR consultation was based on a 45 minute commuting journey. Yes some people will do longer commutes but the longer the journey the fewer of them there are. It is more sub 45 minute journeys that will do most for the fast growing Cambridge economy.

What's needed short term is longer trains, it is the relatively quick way of increasing capacity. I take your point about EMR trains not stopping at Attleborough. I think there is an argument for handing some existing Norwich/Ely paths from EMR to GA at times of day where there are Cambridge and Norwich commuting flows. For example there is another discussion here about the missing 1251 Liverpool-Norwich. Between Ely and Norwich is would be better to fill that gap with a train from Cambridge at about 1700 instead of reinstating the train from Liverpool. Given the way that the GA trains don't go through to Stansted in the peaks, it should be possible to do something like that with existing resources. For example the class 755 off the 1627 Norwich-Cambridge goes to the sidings and comes back out for the 2120 Cambridge-Norwich, which is not a good use of scarce capacity at a peak time. Even worse in the morning is the class 755 where its first train is the 1013 Cambridge-Norwich, lying idle all through the morning peak.

 

[The exile]

. Given the way that the GA trains don't go through to Stansted in the peaks, it should be possible to do something like that with existing resources. For example the class 755 off the 1627 Norwich-Cambridge goes to the sidings and comes back out for the 2120 Cambridge-Norwich, which is not a good use of scarce capacity at a peak time. Even worse in the morning is the class 755 where its first train is the 1013 Cambridge-Norwich, lying idle all through the morning peak.

Of course one person’s “lying idle” is another’s “spare providing extra resilience”.

 

[JonathanH]

Of course one person’s “lying idle” is another’s “spare providing extra resilience”.

It only provides resilience if it occasionally gets stepped up when needed.

 

[Goldfish62]

It only provides resilience if it occasionally gets stepped up when needed.

That's exactly what resilience is!!!!!

 

[dodecahedron67]

LNER were testing platform clearances on P8 tonight with a 5-80X. 5Z84 headcode at York at 2100

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Ely isn't going to be sorted any time soon. From a Cambridge perspective the number of commuters from Attleborough is a drop in the bucket.

The most recent EWR consultation was based on a 45 minute commuting journey. Yes some people will do longer commutes but the longer the journey the fewer of them there are. It is more sub 45 minute journeys that will do most for the fast growing Cambridge economy.

What's needed short term is longer trains, it is the relatively quick way of increasing capacity. I take your point about EMR trains not stopping at Attleborough. I think there is an argument for handing some existing Norwich/Ely paths from EMR to GA at times of day where there are Cambridge and Norwich commuting flows. For example there is another discussion here about the missing 1251 Liverpool-Norwich. Between Ely and Norwich is would be better to fill that gap with a train from Cambridge at about 1700 instead of reinstating the train from Liverpool. Given the way that the GA trains don't go through to Stansted in the peaks, it should be possible to do something like that with existing resources. For example the class 755 off the 1627 Norwich-Cambridge goes to the sidings and comes back out for the 2120 Cambridge-Norwich, which is not a good use of scarce capacity at a peak time. Even worse in the morning is the class 755 where its first train is the 1013 Cambridge-Norwich, lying idle all through the morning peak.

Theres obviously a clear need for Ely to be done, not just from Norwich but from Ipswich as well, unfortunately until that's done (I have doubts if the upgrade is going to enable enough capacity) tinkering around the edges is robbing Peter to pay Paul. Even longer trains have their own challenges, platform length would reduce the number stops it could make although it would be nice to have a fast Norwich to Cambridge 8 car service

 

[dk1]

It only provides resilience if it occasionally gets stepped up when needed.

It’s quite difficult to step up any Norwich services at Cambridge as there are no traincrew. The guards mostly go through to Stansted and drivers have around a 30-35 window at Cambridge. If the up service is more than 30 late it impacts the down service and chances are if the incoming down Norwich is delayed south of Cambridge then there is no guard to work back to Norwich if using the spare unit.

Only resilience the 755 gives is for running something south of Cambridge DOO.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The 333s are to lose their unique PA system later this year.

As mentioned earlier, this will be a shame!

That system and the voice is 25 years old now, and has been a reassuringly familiar feature of Airedale line travel for all that time, despite various changes in operator during that time.

"Welcome to the Leeds train. The next station is Leeds. This train terminates here, please take all your belongings with you." - whilst still sat in the platform at Shipley with the doors still open.

Or the occasional, whilst boarding at Bingley, "Welcome to the Leeds train. The next station is Sandall and Agbrigg".

 

[Bald Rick]

As mentioned earlier, this will be a shame!

That system and the voice is 25 years old now, and has been a reassuringly familiar feature of Airedale line travel for all that time, despite various changes in operator during that time.

"Welcome to the Leeds train. The next station is Leeds. This train terminates here, please take all your belongings with you." - whilst still sat in the platform at Shipley with the doors still open.

Or the occasional, whilst boarding at Bingley, "Welcome to the Leeds train. The next station is Sandall and Agbrigg".

I wouldnt say that was unique. I was pulling into Farringdon last week on a train to Three Bridges and heard “The next station is Durrington on Sea…”

 

[800001]

LNER were testing platform clearances on P8 tonight with a 5-80X. 5Z84 headcode at York at 2100

Not much to read into that, but possibly in case the supposed York - Newcastle shuttles are formed or a 5 car they can be routed into 8 rather than a through platform.

Am sure I’ve seen TPE use 8 in disruption.

Also strange they have done platform clearance. The 8Xx fleet have been cleared for that pastors for years.

 

[A S Leib]

The York – Newcastle shuttles are in RTT. 09:05, 11:07, 13:07, 15:07, 17:06 and 20:07 northbound and 07:43, 09:43, 11:49, 13:45, 15:43, 17:43 and 18:44 southbound on weekdays.

 

[Harvey B]

To clarify the Triangle services, the plan is for three 333s to work Leeds - Doncaster, the remainder (excepting repairs of course) to be on Bradford - Leeds/Ilkley/Skipton. Leeds - Ilkley/Skipton will be 331+331.

First Question. Will the 333s still work on Leeds-Skipton/Ilkley Services or will that be run exclusively by 331s?

However this will likely not take affect until May next year now, aside from occasional 333 runs to Doncaster for training/contingency purposes, as happens at present. The 333s are to lose their unique PA system later this year.

Second Question, Will the 333s still start working the Doncaster line from December? And if not, What's my best chance of getting to record the Dan Strauss "Doncaster Train" Announcements before the PA is replaced?

 

[dodecahedron67]

The York – Newcastle shuttles are in RTT. 09:05, 11:07, 13:07, 15:07, 17:06 and 20:07 northbound and 07:43, 09:43, 11:49, 13:45, 15:43, 17:43 and 18:44 southbound on weekdays.

Just the current TPE paths repurposed then with a couple of gaps. Expected tbh

 

[InkyScrolls]

First Question. Will the 333s still work on Leeds-Skipton/Ilkley Services or will that be run exclusively by 331s?

Unclear but as I understand it 333s will not be diagrammed on Leeds - Skipton/Ilkley services, except possibly at the very start/end of the day.

Second Question, Will the 333s still start working the Doncaster line from December? And if not, What's my best chance of getting to record the Dan Strauss "Doncaster Train" Announcements before the PA is replaced?

Unlikely. It's looking like May next year now. As for recording the announcements, I'm not sure! Travel to Doncaster frequently and hope one turns up, is probably the best advice.

 

[Harvey B]

Unlikely. It's looking like May next year now. As for recording the announcements, I'm not sure! Travel to Doncaster frequently and hope one turns up, is probably the best advice.

could I not go to Bradford or Ilkley, find a stabled unit and ask a Driver or Conductor to play the Doncaster announcements for me?

 

[LowLevel]

could I not go to Bradford or Ilkley, find a stabled unit and ask a Driver or Conductor to play the Doncaster announcements for me?

Likely to receive at best an incredulous response, I would have said.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Perhaps I should let him know?

Interesting - I've fallen for 'fake news' in that case! Or perhaps the Mandela Effect.

The man who did the 333s sounds like a bit like Phil Sayer who sadly passed away in 2016, which may be what you're thinking of.

 

[InkyScrolls]

could I not go to Bradford or Ilkley, find a stabled unit and ask a Driver or Conductor to play the Doncaster announcements for me?

Likely to receive at best an incredulous response, I would have said.

Depends who you ask! It's definitely possible you'd find someone willing.

 

[hexagon789]

Any particular reason for the four extra Gleneagles calls Mon-Sat in certain InterCity workings?

Still retains hourly calls in the Glasgow/Dundee, in one case two services with Gleneagles calls leave Glasgow Queen Street just 3 mins apart now, though the gap opens up to 16 mins by the time they actually call at the station.

 

[800001]

Any particular reason for the four extra Gleneagles calls Mon-Sat in certain InterCity workings?

Still retains hourly calls in the Glasgow/Dundee, in one case two services with Gleneagles calls leave Glasgow Queen Street just 3 mins apart now, though the gap opens up to 16 mins by the time they actually call at the station.

Customer demand!?

 

[hexagon789]

Customer demand!?

Maybe, just seems rather haphazard.

 

[Northern158170]

The York – Newcastle shuttles are in RTT. 09:05, 11:07, 13:07, 15:07, 17:06 and 20:07 northbound and 07:43, 09:43, 11:49, 13:45, 15:43, 17:43 and 18:44 southbound on weekdays.

They seem to do a very bad job at filling in gaps northbound - intervals NTR-DAR seem to be 30 and 90 minutes. Guess there must be no other paths. Southbound is a bit better - 45 and 75 minutes

 

[A S Leib]

They seem to do a very bad job at filling in gaps northbound - intervals NTR-DAR seem to be 30 and 90 minutes. Guess there must be no other paths. Southbound is a bit better - 45 and 75 minutes

As for using Grand Central services for Newcastle when they're not cancelled

• The 10:59 northbound comes five minutes after an Edinburgh LNER
• The 13:48's 22 minutes after an Edinburgh LNER and beats the 14:55 to Newcastle with a change at Sunderland
• The 15:17's nine minutes ahead of a Newcastle LNER
• The 16:47's eight minutes ahead of an Edinburgh LNER
• The 19:11's sixteen minutes ahead of an Edinburgh LNER and beats the 20:26 to Newcastle with a change at Sunderland
• The 21:49's five minutes ahead of a King's Cross – Newcastle LNER

I'm assuming that the southbound services are similarly relatively useless for Newcastle – Northallerton.

 

[Mag_seven]

Once again can I request that discussion in this thread is confined to the December 2024 timetable change i.e. the actual change itself. If anyone wants to discuss anything else then they are welcome to start a new thread.

 

[Northern158170]

Northern December unit diagrams out: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/december_2024_unit_diagrams

4X Class 323s to work Manchester Airport to Blackpool North (2 sets of 2 coupled units). Don't think there's any 4 car sets remaining on the route

Hadfield gets 1X class 323, 2X class 331/1 sets

Units for Northumberland Line - 3X class 158 units (all come from Heaton to either Newcastle or Ashington, run the line all day, then go back)

Changes to 3 car class 150s: 8 units instead of 6
3X Huddersfield-Sheffield
2X Leeds-Huddersfield
1X Leeds-Sheffield (Probably via Wakefield Westgate as present)
2X units stabled (Neville Hill, Wolverton)

 

[Peter749]

Probably still no hourly Sunday service Northern Manchester to Stoke-on-Trent or Manchester to Chester via Altrincham.

Had I a pound for each thread in which I've written that so far, I could probably take a day's extra leave!

Should the trains be put in the timetable so they could be Cancelled due to Staff Shortage?

 

[InkyScrolls]

Looks like there's specific training runs for Donny drivers on 333s as well.

 

[Llandudno]

Northern December unit diagrams out: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/december_2024_unit_diagrams

4X Class 323s to work Manchester Airport to Blackpool North (2 sets of 2 coupled units). Don't think there's any 4 car sets remaining on the route

Hadfield gets 1X class 323, 2X class 331/1 sets

Units for Northumberland Line - 3X class 158 units (all come from Heaton to either Newcastle or Ashington, run the line all day, then go back)

Changes to 3 car class 150s: 8 units instead of 6
3X Huddersfield-Sheffield
2X Leeds-Huddersfield
1X Leeds-Sheffield (Probably via Wakefield Westgate as present)
2X units stabled (Neville Hill, Wolverton)

Are there sufficient drivers and guards to crew them…?

Is there any point reopening the Northumberland Line if Northern can’t provide enough train crew to run existing services without adding further strain on their staffing resources…?