Declassification of first class – Glasgow to Edinburgh

fearty

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Quick question – On the routes between Glasgow & Edinburgh that go via Shotts and Falkirk Grahamston, I have noticed that some of the class 385 units used are the ones with the first class cabins despite the routes not being advertised with first class as far as I am aware. Does this mean that it is declassified or would the guard consider otherwise as you can buy a first class ticket between Glasgow and Edinburgh albeit not specifically for trains on these two routes.

I’d appreciate the thoughts of someone with a better knowledge than I please before I embarrass myself on one of these services.
 
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gray1404

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If the train is not advertised as conveying first class in the timetable, then first class does not apply on the train. So the entire train is standard class regardless.
 

route101

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Used the service from Edinburgh via Grahamston and sat in first class. Not seen any 4 cars on Shotts .
 

47271

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I wouldn't bother about it too much, until the end of the month you can legitimately sit in your actual First on the E&G for an extra quid.

https://www.scotrail.co.uk/first-class-£1-e-g-upgrade

Which says it all about the business they're doing on the rock hard battleship grey seats when 99.9% are perfectly happy in a now very spacious Standard.

Maybe they should've thought of that when they were designing the trains...
 

hexagon789

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Quick question – On the routes between Glasgow & Edinburgh that go via Shotts and Falkirk Grahamston, I have noticed that some of the class 385 units used are the ones with the first class cabins despite the routes not being advertised with first class as far as I am aware. Does this mean that it is declassified or would the guard consider otherwise as you can buy a first class ticket between Glasgow and Edinburgh albeit not specifically for trains on these two routes.

I’d appreciate the thoughts of someone with a better knowledge than I please before I embarrass myself on one of these services.
Definitely declassified, that was always the case when 158s and 170s with first class ran local standard class only services and in 2 years of commuting regularly on such services I never had a guard question it. Indeed when an express 170 turned up, the regulars would make a beeline for the first class areas!
 

route101

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Only time ive used Scotrail first was on Glasgow to Newcastle First advance , which was cheaper than an anytime standard . You get occasional passengers who ' oh this is first class ' as if they are wowed by it.

Not tried HST first class , dont think they offer advances.
 

hexagon789

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Only time ive used Scotrail first was on Glasgow to Newcastle First advance , which was cheaper than an anytime standard . You get occasional passengers who ' oh this is first class ' as if they are wowed by it.

Not tried HST first class , dont think they offer advances.
Presumably not on a ScotRail Glasgow-Newcastle train though, as they are 156s?
 

Mag_seven

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It is either declassified or closed and not available to any passenger at all, at least as far as convention goes (but I don't think it's actually written down anywhere!)
The potential problem we have here is that there are two relevant pieces of writing that potentially contradict one another:

1. The timetable which states that the train in question "conveys standard class accommodation only".

and

2. The sign on board the train on the door to (and sometimes inside) the first class accommodation section which states "This accommodation is for the use of first class ticket holders only".

The potential is therefore there for an interesting discussion with an RPI.
 

fearty

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Thanks all of you for your help. I travelled today from Glasgow QS to Edinburgh Park on the route via Cumbernauld and sat in first class with a standard ticket without any problem in both directions. Although there was no ticket check on the return journey, the guard on the outward trip marked my ticket without a word so it would seem to be fine to do this. The seats however were slightly better than the ones in standard which I think are rock hard on these class 385's to the point of me being sore even after such a short journey.

I worry though to a point of neurosis about these kind of things and I thought I would try and look up the rules on declassification to be sure however I can’t see it mentioned in the National Rail Conditions of Travel which is where I thought it would be, although I did only have a quick glance and I may have missed it. This did however make me curious as to whether this rule on declassification is actually written in stone somewhere. Is there a rule book beyond the one the public sees which has this noted or has it actually been forgotten about or never really existed officially but is being allowed nevertheless?

I’m just curious for my own peace of mind.
 

MPotter

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The potential problem we have here is that there are two relevant pieces of writing that potentially contradict one another:

1. The timetable which states that the train in question "conveys standard class accommodation only".

and

2. The sign on board the train on the door to (and sometimes inside) the first class accommodation section which states "This accommodation is for the use of first class ticket holders only".

The potential is therefore there for an interesting discussion with an RPI.
By my interpretation that is up to the guard, they can either lock and label the First Class compartment out of use to all passengers (even if they have a First Class ticket), which can on some TOCs e.g. Greater Anglia get them into trouble with their managers, or they can declassify First Class and allow it to be used at no extra cost by all passengers.
 

Butts

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I use this service in both directions on a regular basis and always sit in 1st Class - sometimes getting which it end it will be on is a lottery at Falkirk Grahamston.

The same stock is used on Dunblane to Edinburgh affording the same perk for those in the know !!
 

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