Declassification of First Class on busy long distance services

[DarloRich]

Choice is a good thing. You also have the choice to book advanced first? Or ask the TM if they’ll let you in.

Choice is a good thing. I do get a little frustrated with choice that doesn't seem to be taken up mind. Especially when I have to stand for three hours breathing in another pooh fumes.

Now, I am happy to admit to being a massive hypocrite so if someone gives me a free pass or even a railcard I will happily go in first class and complain when they let the bloody oiks in. I will have to work on that studied snobbishness and entitlement that seems to be a prerequisite of FC travel mind

 

[RailWonderer]

I use Avanti about once a week on average, and have never seen first class declassified. It does happen of course, and will be more likely to happen currently, but is a fairly rare event.

I use them a few times a year and I've had first declassified twice, mainly due to disruption. It is at the discretion of the guards on the train though I believe.
To answer the OP: Seatfroggers like me upgrade on some trains by auction or fixed fee but only one seat goes up for auction per train.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Choice is a good thing. I do get a little frustrated with choice that doesn't seem to be taken up mind. Especially when I have to stand for three hours breathing in another pooh fumes.

This forum brings out the pedant in me I'm afraid. Unless you have a wiffy Winnie (not a euphemism!) I think you mean poo.

 

[43066]

I will have to work on that studied snobbishness and entitlement that seems to be a prerequisite of FC travel mind

Have to say, I’ve never had an issue with that. In fact I’m a little worried it might come naturally in my case….

 

[50010 Monarch]

Travelled from New Street to Leeds on 6th August with XC. First class was declassified from Derby. Five coach voyager absolutely heaving. Left folks behind at Sheffield. An announcement was made that first class ticket holders would be able to claim a refund due to sharing coach A with the masses.

On the return from Leeds to New Street first was also declassified. Four coach Voyager again absolutely heaving. Train manager pleading for folks to wait for the next service....which was also four coaches.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On the return from Leeds to New Street first was also declassified. Four coach Voyager again absolutely heaving. Train manager pleading for folks to wait for the next service....which was also four coaches.

How are XC not managing to have everything at least 8-car when they're running half their normal service?

 

[nmsq]

Personally, if money was not an issue I'd travel Bristol Parkway to London then East Coast to Scotland over sitting on a Cross Country.

 

[m4tt]

In the past 3 days I have made 6 trips with Avanti in 1st class on my rover, 3 have been declassified. What made it worse was nobody ever came into the coaches but we were denied any food or drink

 

[duncanp]

In the past 3 days I have made 6 trips with Avanti in 1st class on my rover, 3 have been declassified. What made it worse was nobody ever came into the coaches but we were denied any food or drink

Avanti should stop selling first class tickets, and make the current first class coaches Standard Premium.

If you can't provide a service, you should stop pretending to people that you can, and charging them accordingly.

 

[Steve Harris]

Seriously, if a train is ram packed then first should be declassified in part or in whole.

That really depends on if the train is short formed or not. As a passenger paying for first class why should I have a nice journey ruined because a TOC can't be bothered to pay more to the ROSCO !
Obviously it's different if there's been a failure (which obviously can't be predicted). But in the days of FCC, Sundays where a mare simply because the TOC wouldn't pay for the units not to sit idle in the sidings when there was full and standing customers on 4 car trains week in, week out.

on a 4 couch train it cant make enough money to be worth it, surely.

it boils my pizzle to be on a rammed XC mobile lavatory and see 1 person in first. Just chuck them off and let us in. I bet they are on a railcard and paying less than me. it is enough to make you support Jeremy Corbyn!

Virgin in the good old days: 3 coaches of FC on a 9 car train. Loads of space in FC while I am sat in a luggage rack ( on a good day!) I bet their yearly FC ticket spend wasn't as much as my season ticket.

But 1) your making assumptions, (which in my line of work is dangerous) and 2) your venting your anger at the wrong person. You should be complaining to the TOC who has got the balance of number of carriages wrong not the person who has paid the extra to be in First Class to get away from the noisy standard class passenger(s). Afterall, it's not his/her fault you chose to travel with no seat reservation thereby ending up in a luggage rack !

 

[JamieL]

Thank you for all the replies guys. I am booked up on Avanti and the Sleeper until October but will give a XC train a go after that.

 

[50010 Monarch]

How are XC not managing to have everything at least 8-car when they're running half their normal service?

It seems that since the reinstatement of certain services they cannot cover everything on the NE/SW route with double sets.

 

[iainbhx]

XC has the strongest case for 1st of any TOC (bar Caledonian Sleeper) as they have the longest distance trains. However it should cost 1.5 times Standard (reflecting the extra space taken up) and not include freebies other than maybe very basic stuff like tea/coffee. Oh, and the trains should be long enough.

That's about all you get in 1st on XC a lot of the time. In my experience any food is kept hidden away and not offered unless you ask for it, some biscuits and crisps may be offered if you are lucky. Sometimes you get nothing at all and sometimes just one pass of the trolley from Birmingham to Newton Abbot.

 

[Jimini]

That's about all you get in 1st on XC a lot of the time. In my experience any food is kept hidden away and not offered unless you ask for it, some biscuits and crisps may be offered if you are lucky. Sometimes you get nothing at all and sometimes just one pass of the trolley from Birmingham to Newton Abbot.

That's true. I normally ask and they'll have a BLT or a bacon roll tucked away somewhere.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's about all you get in 1st on XC a lot of the time. In my experience any food is kept hidden away and not offered unless you ask for it, some biscuits and crisps may be offered if you are lucky. Sometimes you get nothing at all and sometimes just one pass of the trolley from Birmingham to Newton Abbot.

Fair point, though the price doesn't reflect that. 1.5-1.6x, the classic European multiplier, roughly represents the amount of extra floorspace taken up (e.g. 42 rather than 64 seats in a 20m all-bays open coach = 1.523). The way Standard is crammed in on say a Pendolino (76 vs 46 in a full coach) would give a slightly higher multiplier (1.652), but not the well over twice that is generally used on walk up fares.

 

[Huntergreed]

I meant to write this one in here yesterday. I experienced something I hadn't before, first class re-classification.

All standard users were told to leave first class and anyone who was found in after the next stop would be charged the full anytime first rate to the next station.

It certainly cleared folk out, but wasn't something I'd ever seen before, does make me wonder what would happen if a PRM was in the accessible space and was unable to move out of first class - it would be very unfair to charge them!

 

[dk1]

How are XC not managing to have everything at least 8-car when they're running half their normal service?

Poor as XC have been during & since the pandemic it’s not quite half.

 

[hkstudent]

I meant to write this one in here yesterday. I experienced something I hadn't before, first class re-classification.

All standard users were told to leave first class and anyone who was found in after the next stop would be charged the full anytime first rate to the next station.

It certainly cleared folk out, but wasn't something I'd ever seen before, does make me wonder what would happen if a PRM was in the accessible space and was unable to move out of first class - it would be very unfair to charge them!

For a PRM case, that will likely be violating Disability Discrimination Act if not providing assistance in relocating the passengers, and obviously a massive media coverage as well.

 

[JamieL]

I meant to write this one in here yesterday. I experienced something I hadn't before, first class re-classification.

All standard users were told to leave first class and anyone who was found in after the next stop would be charged the full anytime first rate to the next station.

It certainly cleared folk out, but wasn't something I'd ever seen before, does make me wonder what would happen if a PRM was in the accessible space and was unable to move out of first class - it would be very unfair to charge them!

Can I ask if this was on an Avanti service?

 

[Mogz]

As a regular CrossCountry traveller, I can tell you that First Class is never declassified, even if Standard Class is so full that passengers are tightly packed in the vestibules or if people can’t even get on the train due to a cancellation.

Even those standing in the aisle of the First Class carriage are told that they will have to leave or upgrade in those circumstances, and I have seen people arguing with the guard or First Class host about that.

I have no particular class bias. I travel Standard for shorter distances and First for longer distances where I need to get work done too.

CrossCountry Voyagers can be hell on earth in Standard when overcrowded, but First is always maintained as First.

PS the seats are the same type as the old Avanti/Virgin ones pre refurbishment but they have been re-upholstered since new. The food is usually just croissants/ biscuits/ crisps and virtually unlimited tea, coffee, water and juices. No full meals are included or available, though if you’re lucky you may get a hot bacon roll.

 

[mpthomson]

For a PRM case, that will likely be violating Disability Discrimination Act if not providing assistance in relocating the passengers, and obviously a massive media coverage as well.

There's no such thing as the Disability Discrimination Act.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For a PRM case, that will likely be violating Disability Discrimination Act if not providing assistance in relocating the passengers, and obviously a massive media coverage as well.

There's no such thing as the Disability Discrimination Act.

The law is now called the Equality Act, however that in no way detracts from the OP's point which is entirely correct apart from the specific name of the law involved. That was about as helpful as "there's no such thing as road tax" is in a cycling debate.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thank you for all the replies guys. I am booked up on Avanti and the Sleeper until October but will give a XC train a go after that.

That should give you enough time to apply for a mortgage to afford an XC ticket!

 

[Huntergreed]

Onboard an unbelievably rammed pendolino (and no, that isn’t hyperbole. We can’t actually fit into standard class. I’m in the first vestibule before entering first class, and the path to standard is blocked by passengers) - and yet the TM has announced that first class remains classified (and I can see it’s empty from the vestibule of coach G). Photo of the way into standard attached:


(photo shows the connecting vestibule from first into standard, rammed with passengers).

As far as I know, it is this busy along all 7 coaches - seems extremely poor judgement on the TM’s behalf not to declassify!

Also makes me wonder - what are the rules for charging a passenger if they want to get to standard accommodation, but physically can’t?

 

[coradiafan2000]

I was travelling from Lewes to Victoria last month and it was full and standing the whole way, especially from Gatwick. It was mainly due to the previous service having been cancelled, in typical Southern style. I think it's the longest journey I've ever stood up continuously for.

The TM announced she was declassifying first class almost immediately after leaving Lewes, however as there's no physical door separating first class on the 377s, and the only difference is a cloth over the headrest some people had already sat in them anyway. It did make me wonder though- has there ever been an instance where a TM has refused to declassify first class but passengers have taken matters into their own hands?

 

[duncanp]

I was travelling from Lewes to Victoria last month and it was full and standing the whole way, especially from Gatwick. It was mainly due to the previous service having been cancelled, in typical Southern style. I think it's the longest journey I've ever stood up continuously for.

The TM announced she was declassifying first class almost immediately after leaving Lewes, however as there's no physical door separating first class on the 377s, and the only difference is a cloth over the headrest some people had already sat in them anyway. It did make me wonder though- has there ever been an instance where a TM has refused to declassify first class but passengers have taken matters into their own hands?

I have seen this on Southern services that pass through Gatwick Airport towards London, especially on summer Saturdays.

The train was so crowded by the time it gets to Gatwick that people went and sat in first class anyway.

No announcement about declassification was made, and there was no ticket check.

I suppose this would amount to de facto declassification, even if nothing was actually said.

 

[43066]

As far as I know, it is this busy along all 7 coaches - seems extremely poor judgement on the TM’s behalf not to declassify!

Not sure whether it’s possible for them to do that without permission from control?

It’s generally done where crowding becomes a safety issue/people might be left behind, rather than just because standard is busy. As we have seen people soon start moaning when it’s declassified (usually those travelling on cheap first class advances !).

 

[Dore & Totley]

I was travelling from Lewes to Victoria last month and it was full and standing the whole way, especially from Gatwick. It was mainly due to the previous service having been cancelled, in typical Southern style. I think it's the longest journey I've ever stood up continuously for.

The TM announced she was declassifying first class almost immediately after leaving Lewes, however as there's no physical door separating first class on the 377s, and the only difference is a cloth over the headrest some people had already sat in them anyway. It did make me wonder though- has there ever been an instance where a TM has refused to declassify first class but passengers have taken matters into their own hands?

My brother was on a Great Western coming back from a play off final in Cardiff. The West Ham fans decided to declassify first of their own volition given the overcrowding. The train manager apparently walked into the carriage, saw them all, and walked straight back out.

I was travelling from Lewes to Victoria last month and it was full and standing the whole way, especially from Gatwick. It was mainly due to the previous service having been cancelled, in typical Southern style. I think it's the longest journey I've ever stood up continuously for.

The TM announced she was declassifying first class almost immediately after leaving Lewes, however as there's no physical door separating first class on the 377s, and the only difference is a cloth over the headrest some people had already sat in them anyway. It did make me wonder though- has there ever been an instance where a TM has refused to declassify first class but passengers have taken matters into their own hands?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Onboard an unbelievably rammed pendolino (and no, that isn’t hyperbole. We can’t actually fit into standard class. I’m in the first vestibule before entering first class, and the path to standard is blocked by passengers) - and yet the TM has announced that first class remains classified (and I can see it’s empty from the vestibule of coach G).

Go and sit in Standard Premium. If it's that busy they likely won't come through and take your money, and if they do just upgrade. As there's no other way to pay for that as an upgrade than when challenged, "pay when challenged" (if challenged) is perfectly acceptable.

I think I've been charged for it about 1 out of 4 times.

 

[popeter45]

I wish more companies would declassify first class. Permanently. Vive la révolution

Seriously, if a train is ram packed then first should be declassified in part or in whole.

im a regular GWR traveler and nearly every friday you will almost always see a argument between the train staff and a passenger who insists the first class should be declassified