Delay Repay - Intentionally Catching Late Trains

[drspa44]

I had a conversation about this with some of the forum regulars a few months ago, but I'm still not sure. I wonder whether there's anything concrete in the T+Cs about this scenario or if anyone's tried it. Imagine this scenario:

• You work at a company that has flexible hours, so can choose to come in at any time providing you make up the hours later.
• You live or work somewhere close to the train station and you can see the platform from your window.
• The train service is unreliable and half-hourly.
• You have a season ticket and you want to minimise your transport costs.

Is it permissible to choose to leave home or depart from work at a different time each day purposefully trying to catch delayed trains, such that you can claim partial refunds with delay repay?

Further to this, do you need to be physically waiting for the delayed train at the station itself or can you essentially watch the platform from your window and only depart home/work when you can see the train in the distance?

On one hand, it feels like if you've bought a season ticket you should have the right to use it whenever you want, according to the posted timetable. On the other hand, this strategy could make a season ticket free or negative cost. I reckon the TOCs would call this 'abuse', but I'm unsure whether legally they can deny the claims.

 

[_toommm_]

So you're asking if it's ok to intentionally delay yourself to get money back? Does that really need an answer.

Of course it's ok for season ticket holders to pick and choose what trains they get and when, but doing it to intentionally get money back is embezzlement, much the same way is when you claim for a delay from when you didn't travel.

Erratic delay repay claims that follow no pattern will eventually get picked up, and you'll have a not nice experience afterwards....

 

[talltim]

I don’t claim delay repay, but I do legitimately make seemingly randomly timed trips to and from work. Like the example I have flexitime, my journey in can vary by up to 3 hours depending on whether I can be bothered to get out of bed, what the weather is like, whether my kids are ill etc. Similarly going home it can vary by up to four hours, how bored I am, if I have something to get done, if I’m down on hours etc.
Basically, any attempt decline based on erratic travel patterns should be put down

 

[talltim]

I’d also say that if delays were frequent enough to make this worth actively doing, then the railway really should be looking at why they are making it possible to happen.

 

[talltim]

And another thing...
Are you really delaying yourself if you get more time at home drinking tea, or at work building up flexi time?

 

[Kite159]

And another thing...
Are you really delaying yourself if you get more time at home drinking tea, or at work building up flexi time?

Is it any different to someone being in a pub near the station, using their phone to see that the train they were going to catch is showing as cancelled, and deciding to order in another drink (or two) to pass the time before the next train is due?

 

[drspa44]

I think it does need an answer. It is not 'intentionally delaying oneself', but choosing to travel at different times.

Thameslink's Passenger Charter says "Under our Delay Repay scheme, if your journey is delayed by 15 minutes or more, irrespective of what caused the delay, you’re entitled to claim compensation.". National Rail says to refer to the TOCs' charters. The fact that one's journey start time is not consistent day-to-day does not seem to make a difference.

I could come up with a more extreme example where someone travels back and forth on a branch line repeatedly, so they will catch every train (late or not). Maybe I will try this if I ever become homeless...

 

[TUC]

I always think questions like this fail to understand the difference between legality and morality.

 

[_toommm_]

I think it does need an answer. It is not 'intentionally delaying oneself', but choosing to travel at different times.

Thameslink's Passenger Charter says "Under our Delay Repay scheme, if your journey is delayed by 15 minutes or more, irrespective of what caused the delay, you’re entitled to claim compensation.". National Rail says to refer to the TOCs' charters. The fact that one's journey start time is not consistent day-to-day does not seem to make a difference.

I could come up with a more extreme example where someone travels back and forth on a branch line repeatedly, so they will catch every train (late or not). Maybe I will try this if I ever become homeless...

Your question was, and I quote:

Is it permissible to choose to leave home or depart from work at a different time each day purposefully trying to catch delayed trains, such that you can claim partial refunds with delay repay?

I answered that question first - intentionally delaying yourself for monetary gain is not right. As I went on to say, I dont care what time of day you travel, travel when you want - that's not the spurious part. Delaying yourself intentionally is though... read my answer again.

 

[drspa44]

I always think questions like this fail to understand the difference between legality and morality.

Much of this forum is dedicated to paying less for train travel by making use of the train fare system in creative or unexpected ways.

Is it immoral to split ticket or exploit loopholes in booking engines or easements?

 

[yorkie]

I think the wording of the question is flawed; it is not an "intentional delay" as such but deliberately choosing your travel times to maximise the prospects of being delayed.

Of course this is only applicable on pre-purchased tickets, such as Season tickets.

It's an odd concept which, if done in the manner you describe, would be very extreme indeed and would be of little or no benefit to anyone.

So basically you do not decide if you are going to work from the office or not until you see there are delays. If you spot delays, you decide to go to work at that moment head to the station, take the first available/recommended service (as appropriate) and at the end of the journey you calculate the length of delay by comparing the booked arrival time (ie. the time you should have arrived had trains been running at the advertised times) and the actual arrival time.

I do not see how there can be a rule that states "If you see delays, you may not choose to embark your journey at that point" however if someone actually did this, their travel patterns would be flagged as highly suspicious and the matter would be investigated. The cost and stress of dealing with the investigation is unlikely to be worth the compensation gained.

 

[etr221]

The real problem arises from the loose definition of 'my journey', and hence how to decide whether you're late or early:
If the trains (in the example) are scheduled at 1:00, 1:30... and arrive 30 minutes later (and maintain their running time), then
If I arrive at the station at 0:55 and catch the 1:00, and it runs to time, I'm on time.
If I arrive at the station 1:10 (or 1:25) and catch the 1:30, and it runs to time, I'm on time.
If I arrive at the station at 0:55 and catch the 1:00 running 15 minutes late, I'm 15 minutes late
But if I arrive at the station at 1:10 and catch the 1:00 running 15 minutes late, am I 15 minutes late or 15 minutes early? Does it matter if I intended to catch the 1:00 but was delayed getting to the station? Or arrived with plenty of time for the 1:30? Or, realising the 1:00 was running late, timed my arrival accordingly?
Regarding the last (and getting to the dilemma posed by the OP) - is this sensible, and morally ok; or morally wrong? What if I do this once for the train I meant to catch? Or for every train I intend to catch? Or carefully choose to go for trains which are running late?
And what if I arrive at the station at 1:25, to find the 1:00 running 35 late, and the 1:30 10 late ... am I 5 late or 35 late (getting the 1:00) - but what if I get the 1:30 - to be 10 late? and then it loses another 30 minutes - then I'm 40 minutes late - but can I claim for it? Or can it be argued that I should have caught the 1:00, and been not so late? And what if the 1:00 had been only 27 late (so I could still have caught it - but only by running for it)?

 

[yorkie]

But if I arrive at the station at 1:10 and catch the 1:00 running 15 minutes late, am I 15 minutes late or 15 minutes early?

Easy. The latter.

And what if I arrive at the station at 1:25, to find the 1:00 running 35 late, and the 1:30 10 late ... am I 5 late or 35 late

Easy again. 5 late.

(getting the 1:00) - but what if I get the 1:30 - to be 10 late?

???

 

[sheff1]

Of course it's ok for season ticket holders to pick and choose what trains they get and when, but doing it to intentionally get money back is embezzlement

How is it embezzlement ?

 

[_toommm_]

How is it embezzlement ?

Claiming delay repay fraudulently is embezzlement

 

[cuccir]

I have a season ticket and flexible working hours, and can work in the office or at home, so I can relate to some of this discussion. I probably usually go the other way with things - rather than travel on late running trains, I'll stay and work when there's some disruption and get ahead with my hours a bit.

On my morning commute I often find myself on late running trains that get me in earlier than planned, though usually these are 5-10 minutes late so we'll out of delay repay territory. I'd consider myself early in these cases! However if the train were sufficiently delayed, of course a claim could be made.

Either way, as noted there's a difference between whether one can claim delay repay and whether one should.

 

[sarahj]

It's rather silly making yourself intentionally late to reclaim a few quid, esp when the next train could be the one to get stuck between stations for hours. Where the fraud on delay repay comes in is folks claiming for trips they never made by searching online. Some folks take this to the extreme and end up claiming hundreds/thousands back. These folks normally end up with a stalker seeing what their real trips are and can end up deep in the doo-doo

 

[Tetchytyke]

Claiming delay repay fraudulently is embezzlement

How is it embezzlement?

And how is it fraudulent? It's only dishonest if you say you travelled on trains that you didn't.

If you see your usual train A is on time but train B is an hour late, if you change your plans, wait in the pub for an hour for train B and then catch train B, then you've done nowt wrong. Legally or ethically.

If you get train A and say you were on train B, that's a whole different story.

 

[sheff1]

Claiming delay repay fraudulently is embezzlement

So you said, but how is it ?

 

[TUC]

Much of this forum is dedicated to paying less for train travel by making use of the train fare system in creative or unexpected ways.

Is it immoral to split ticket or exploit loopholes in booking engines or easements?

I don't have any problem with exploting loopholes. Deliberately targetting late running trains feels very artificial.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't have any problem with exploting loopholes. Deliberately targetting late running trains feels very artificial.

It seems like borderline fraud. While I don't think there is any kind of issue with intending to catch the 12:30, for which you were going to leave the office at 12:20, but seeing that it's half an hour late and so not leaving the office until 12:50, I think it is quite dodgy to board a delayed train that didn't actually delay your intended journey and still claim. After all, sometimes such a train journey, despite the near-certainty that a claim would succeed, might even make your journey quicker by providing a train when you wanted one instead of the time on the timetable when you didn't.

As an example, I arrived at Euston today thinking I'd missed the 1834 all-stops to Bletchley (quite a slow one, but it had a 319/2 on it[1] and it tips most people out at Bushey, after which I had a table to myself). I went for a cup of tea and slowly wandered down to the platform and it was still there despite having gone off the PIS. So I boarded. Had it been 15 minutes late I could technically have claimed a tenner, but wouldn't have done as there is no way I could have boarded it had it been on time.

[1] It presently appears to be the set diagrammed for the 0713 off Bletchley, which I knew had a 319/2 on it from this morning - nicest unit in the fleet in both classes

 

[Bantamzen]

Its an interesting question, well actually three questions as I see it. Is it possible to exploit season tickets & delay repay? Can you get away with it? And should you do it?

For the first question the answer is simple, yes. You have a season ticket, you arrive to join a valid service, that's it. If you happen to have been monitoring potential delays, there is no way either a member of staff or ticket barrier would be able to identify this.

The second question more depends on how TOCs analyse their Delay Repay data, and indeed how many staff they use to process them. Its possible that TOCs may have thought about this possibility, and may put into place checks of the data to look for patterns of users regularly claiming against delayed services where the pattern in delay varies. And depending on the number of staff working the claims, it is entirely possible that if only a few are involved then they may start to recognise regular claimers & spot odd claiming patterns that way. Either way, and as others have pointed out up thread, any noticeable patterns like this could lead to them investigating further.

Finally, should you do it and that too is a simple answer, no. If you are deliberately working your commutes around delays purely to reduce the cost of your travel through compensation then this is at least morally wrong. Because in effect you are not being delayed by the TOC, but choosing to delay yourself. This of course differs from a scenario where you check the time of your intended train, see a delay & alter your time accordingly simply to avoid having a long wait at the station. It might not seem much of a difference, but the intent is. Where some seeks to exploit Delay Repay by deliberately delaying themselves, it should be considered, and is fraud.

This thread does remind me of a previous one about a commuter who proudly wrote to a newspaper (possibly The Metro?) about how Delay Repay was "a nice little earner". At the time most members felt that whilst they were getting a reduction in the cost of their season ticket, they were not actually gaining. However this thread made me think a bit more about that. Like the OP, I work flexi-time and so my finishing hours can vary (I generally opt for the first trains of the morning on the way in) and I do tend to keep an eye on any possible delays so as to minimise my time at the station. However some employers (not mine I hasten to add) allow staff to choose between using their accrued hours for additional leave, or claim them back as standard rate additional hours on their wages. So with this in mind, it is possible in some scenarios for people to work extra hours on the premise that their trains have been delayed, based on aiming for any known delayed services, and also claim Delay Repay, in effect being paid by both their employer & the TOC for their "delay".

I am starting to wonder if this is what the commuter who wrote the newspaper letter was inferring to, because yes potentially in this scenario it could become "a nice little earner".

 

[Failed Unit]

I must admit as a GTR user I doubt they lose much money over this. It is so difficult to claim delay repay from them very few would bother. In fact I don’t claim for 15 minute delays as the process takes too long for the small amount you get back.

Let’s say I was intending to get the 1022 train and the 1052 was 29 minutes late (unlikely as GTR would skip stop) I could in theory claim I intended to get the 1022. No way they could prove otherwise as even if they look at the time I put my ticket through the barrier legally I don’t need to wait on the platform. Many stand on the bridge to hedge their bets.

I am sure some do. But many more who are entitled won’t claim as it is too much trouble.

May again be different on a decent TOC but certainly on GTR time versus reward it simply is not worth it.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

So you're asking if it's ok to intentionally delay yourself to get money back? Does that really need an answer.

Of course it's ok for season ticket holders to pick and choose what trains they get and when, but doing it to intentionally get money back is embezzlement, much the same way is when you claim for a delay from when you didn't travel.

Going to call a big [citation needed] on that one, preferably with references to the Theft Act 1968, the Fraud Act 2006, and/or the NRCoT.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Where some seeks to exploit Delay Repay by deliberately delaying themselves, it should be considered, and is fraud.

[Citation needed].

Example. Say I normally catch the 1800, which is on time. I get to the station and see the 1830 is 30 minutes late. I decide to go get a coffee for an hour and board the 1830 at 1900. I put in a delay repay claim. The Delay Repay claim will pay for the coffee plus a bit of spare change.

How on earth is any of that "fraud"? Or even immoral? My journey plans changed. I was delayed (and if the 1830 catches up time then I'd be delayed and have no Delay Repay!)

It only becomes fraud if I'm on the 1800 and say I was on the 1830!

 

[cuccir]

[Citation needed].

Example. Say I normally catch the 1800, which is on time. I get to the station and see the 1830 is 30 minutes late. I decide to go get a coffee for an hour and board the 1830 at 1900. I put in a delay repay claim.

How on earth is any of that "fraud"? Or even immoral?

It only becomes fraud if I'm on the 1800 and say I was on the 1830!

It's clearly not fraud. Nowhere does Delay Repay suggest that you have to be stuck, cold, unhappy etc while delayed. If someone uses that time to enjoy a coffee, a pint, to have a lie in or stay a bit longer at work, that's up to them and there's no issues in terms of the rule.

With regards to morals - well they're, broadly speaking, personal. Personally, I'd feel it immoral to claim when you've chosen to be delayed, given that (by perception if not by rule) the scheme exists to compensate people who've been unavoidably delayed. One could make contrasting moral cases (eg "Given that many who are eligible won't claim, all who know about Delay Repay should claim, to encourage improved performance"; "Fares are unreasonably high and any opportunity to reclaim some of that should be taken"; "The scheme is clearly designed to recompense delays regardless of reason and if TOCs wanted to be more restrictive then they should change their scheme accordingly") but I don't find them as compelling.

 

[Bantamzen]

[Citation needed].

Example. Say I normally catch the 1800, which is on time. I get to the station and see the 1830 is 30 minutes late. I decide to go get a coffee for an hour and board the 1830 at 1900. I put in a delay repay claim. The Delay Repay claim will pay for the coffee plus a bit of spare change.

How on earth is any of that "fraud"? Or even immoral? My journey plans changed. I was delayed (and if the 1830 catches up time then I'd be delayed and have no Delay Repay!)

It only becomes fraud if I'm on the 1800 and say I was on the 1830!

Sorry, I don't think you get my point.

You are sitting in the office constantly checking RTT for a delayed train. On a day without delays you would catch the 1800 (which runs on time), but today you see that the 1830 is running 30 late so you decide to work until 1845 (lets assume the station is 5 or so minutes away) & claim a bit more additional time knowing full well that you will also be claiming Delay Repay. So you have changed your plans simply because a later train is running late so as to claim compensation. The TOC are not responsible for your delay, because you have deliberately targeted a train that you knew to be late before making your plans, making you responsible for your delay. Had you got the 1800 as usual, you would have encountered no delays.

You then repeat this whenever you can. That is definitely wrong, immoral & if you get rumbled further down the line might be considered fraudulent.

 

[talltim]

Of course, the way train timetabling works, it’s often certain trains that are delayed every day. Without looking anything up, I could tell you that the 17:29 it pretty much always in time, while the 17:45 averages 10 late. So it could be that someone doing this’ pattern of trains would be the same train every day

 

[Tetchytyke]

which runs on time), but today you see that the 1830 is running 30 late so you decide to work until 1845 (lets assume the station is 5 or so minutes away) & claim a bit more additional time knowing full well that you will also be claiming Delay Repay. So you have changed your plans simply because a later train is running late so as to claim compensation.

No, I did understand your point, i just disagree completely. How on earth is it even remotely fraudulent to change your plans based on train running times? What a ridiculous idea.

The only fraud is when you claim for a train you weren't on. End of. The only remotely grey area is if you catch a late running train which you wouldn't have caught if it were on time, as in that situation you haven't actually been delayed.

As for being "rumbled", how exactly? You're sitting on the delayed train being delayed. "We're not paying out because you should have left work sooner" won't really fly.

 

[Tetchytyke]

With regards to morals - well they're, broadly speaking, personal. Personally, I'd feel it immoral to claim when you've chosen to be delayed

I can see that viewpoint, but I don't see the issue with it- providing you do actually experience the delay. I've sometimes done it on connections if I'm in no rush - "I could walk briskly because the minimum connection time is very generous, but I'm not going to, I'm going to have a pint in the York Tap"- but I wouldn't do it on a commute. I just want to get home!

The only grey area for me is if you turn up at 1755 for the 1800 but actually get on the delayed 1730 at 1800. In that case there's no delay to claim, even if the train itself is delayed.