Delay repay issue.

[MassDiscussion]

Hello, apologies if I'm posting this in the wrong section of this forum.

On 22nd June, the last train from Havant to Southampton Central was cancelled. It was late at night, so I got a taxi back, costing me £81.90. I have been in touch with Southern and they have refunded me £14, the cost of the ticket. However, they're refusing to pay me back the £81.90 taxi fare. I have a receipt from the taxi driver and I still have the train ticket as proof. What are my chances of getting my money back?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Hello, apologies if I'm posting this in the wrong section of this forum.

On 22nd June, the last train from Havant to Southampton Central was cancelled. It was late at night, so I got a taxi back, costing me £81.90. I have been in touch with Southern and they have refunded me £14, the cost of the ticket. However, they're refusing to pay me back the £81.90 taxi fare. I have a receipt from the taxi driver and I still have the train ticket as proof. What are my chances of getting my money back?

Was there any way you could have asked Southern (or any other train company) to arrange for this taxi, or other alternative transport? If so, did you? Were there any other passengers in the same situation as you?

If you had the opportunity to ask for the train company to arrange a taxi or other onwards transport then I don't think you can reasonably expect them to pay up if you decided to make your own arrangements. However, if you did not have any reasonable way of doing so then I think you would be entitled to the taxi fare back, assuming you had made reasonable endeavours to see if anyone else was going the same way and sharing it with them if so.

 

[MassDiscussion]

Was there any way you could have asked Southern (or any other train company) to arrange for this taxi, or other alternative transport? If so, did you? Were there any other passengers in the same situation as you?

If you had the opportunity to ask for the train company to arrange a taxi or other onwards transport then I don't think you can reasonably expect them to pay up if you decided to make your own arrangements. However, if you did not have any reasonable way of doing so then I think you would be entitled to the taxi fare back, assuming you had made reasonable endeavours to see if anyone else was going the same way and sharing it with them if so.

It was 11pm. No staff around or any other passengers that I could see.

 

[MikeWh]

It was 11pm. No staff around or any other passengers that I could see.

Is there a help point at Havant?

 

[MassDiscussion]

Is there a help point at Havant?

There probably is, but I couldn't find one.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I would have thought this is a borderline case. On the one hand, the railways have an obligation to get you to your destination where disruption affects the normal train service. They can do this by any suitable means of alternative transport - but they did not do so here. However, arguably they did nothing wrong as they didn't know about your situation.

I would try and appeal further but be aware that you don't have a watertight case.

 

[furlong]

I wouldn't see anything borderline with the cancellation of a last train and no alternative arrangements notified - write again (still politely) as a 'letter before action' alleging breach of contract then try the small claims court if they don't pay up? It's surely the company's responsibility to communicate the alternative arrangements to you. Even if they has no staff available to greet you and tell you what to do, with a working PA system and customer information screens, they could have put a message up there telling you what their alternative arrangements were, or have had prominent posters on display covering such circumstances.

 

[najaB]

I wouldn't see anything borderline with the cancellation of a last train and no alternative arrangements notified...

The reason it's borderline is because the OP didn't use the help point, nor did they call the TOC. It's entirely possible (even likely) that, had he done so, they would have arranged for a taxi.

Even if they hadn't, it would make the 'stranded' argument even stronger. I've never had to get a taxi from an unstaffed station, but I have a few times from staffed ones. Generally speaking, the Railway does a good job of making alternate arrangements given the chance.

Even if they has no staff available to greet you and tell you what to do, with a working PA system and customer information screens, they could have put a message up there telling you what their alternative arrangements were, or have had prominent posters on display covering such circumstances.

I don't have firsthand knowledge of the arrangements at Havant, but help points are usually pretty easy to find and bear prominent 'Press for assistance' labeling.

 

[furlong]

I don't have firsthand knowledge of the arrangements at Havant, but help points are usually pretty easy to find and bear prominent 'Press for assistance' labeling.

Well clearly not prominent enough or the OP would have used one! It's only a side-issue though surely - the company has contracted to provide the transport and if it's not going to be a train, it needs to communicate its alternative arrangements (did it hire a bus in place of the train perhaps?) to its passengers. I'd expect the CIS to show the arrangements, an announcement over any PA system and for there to be some information at the main station entrance (as that's where people are likely to go looking for the road alternative). If the companies don't provide the necessary information, they shouldn't be surprised if passengers consider the company to have breached their contract and sue for compensation.

 

[MassDiscussion]

I don't have firsthand knowledge of the arrangements at Havant, but help points are usually pretty easy to find and bear prominent 'Press for assistance' labeling.

Havant isn't the sort of place that you want to hang around in alone, late on a Friday night. My boyfriend offered to pick me up, but that would mean me waiting for 2 hours for him to finish work. I was desperate.

 

[furlong]

One caveat though, is the terms under which the £14 was accepted and whether that concludes the matter.

 

[najaB]

Well clearly not prominent enough or the OP would have used one!

That rather presumes that they looked for it.

 

[furlong]

That rather presumes that they looked for it.

Which presumes there was a PA announcement telling any passengers intending to use the cancelled train to look for it and use it!

 

[najaB]

Which presumes there was a PA announcement telling any passengers intending to use the cancelled train to look for it and use it!

Why does there need to be a PA? A reasonable person, arriving at a station to find their train cancelled, would look around for assistance. Has society really reached the state that people can't be expected to think for themselves absent an announcement telling them what to do?

All the help points I have seen have been large things with blinking lights and clear signage saying to use them if you need help.

Edit: Okay, maybe not blinking lights.

 

[MassDiscussion]

Which presumes there was a PA announcement telling any passengers intending to use the cancelled train to look for it and use it!

I get trains a lot, and whenever a train gets cancelled, I have never heard any such announcements.

 

[Silverdale]

The OP says that they have "been in touch" with Southern and Southern have declined to refund the taxi fare, but how much detail has been explained in that exchange?

The extenuating circumstances would be as this was the last service of the day, the customer was alone at the station, late at night, felt vulnerable and could not find a member of staff or any means to contact one, they felt the only safe option was to call a taxi.

I would certainly hope that if that was the situation and the OP had been able to contact Southern at the time, a taxi would have been ordered for them. As such, I think it would be very nit-picking of Southern to decline to refund the taxi fare in this case, but it really does depend to what lengths the OP went to try and seek advice from the train operator before going ahead and ordering the taxi on their own account.

 

[sheff1]

All the help points I have seen have been large things with blinking lights and clear signage saying to use them if you need help.

Edit: Okay, maybe not blinking lights.

The help points in Scotland are, indeed, well signed and if you use one you get through to someone who understands the issue and can take appropriate action. In other areas this is not the case, in Northernland they can be inconspicuous, often out of order and if you do manage to speak to someone they are seemingly based in the Indian subcontinent and have no idea what you are talking about - they might even claim that the station you are calling from does not exist! I have no first hand experience of SWR help points, but reports on here suggest they are more akin to Northern than Scotrail.

 

[MassDiscussion]

The help points in Scotland are, indeed, well signed and if you use one you get through to someone who understands the issue and can take appropriate action. In other areas this is not the case, in Northernland they can be inconspicuous, often out of order and if you do manage to speak to someone they are seemingly based in the Indian subcontinent and have no idea what you are talking about - they might even claim that the station you are calling from does not exist! I have no first hand experience of SWR help points, but reports on here suggest they are more akin to Northern than Scotrail.

I have only used a help point once, on a separate occasion to the above. This was in the presence of an off duty SWR staff member. They appeared to be from another country who had never heard of Hampshire, let alone Havant (OK, most people outside of Hampshire probably won't be familiar with the area).

To put it in context, I was in Havant that particular night because it was my brother's birthday. I obviously had had a few drinks during the night but I had planned ahead my journey, and I knew which train would get me home. Usually, on a Southern service (no offence to any staff reading this) I planned on getting an earlier service because it is widely believed not to trust Southern trains. SWR are currently just as bad, but I can understand the reasons why. I'm a union rep myself, so I obviously support the strikes. As a mostly lone female, it's very comforting to see guards on trains, especially late at night, when I often travel to work. I hope you all come to some sort of agreement.

Sorry for rambling. It is possible that on this particular night, I had drank one too many. My brother had kindly walked me to the station when I realised that the last train had been cancelled. In my possibly drunken state (although, I remember everything clearly), it didn't occur to me to look for a help point, especially given how useless they have been to me on previous occasions. Havant on a Friday night isn't the nicest place to be stranded, so that's why I hailed a taxi from the nearby rank. That's my defence, Your Honour.

 

[Harlequin]

Assuming (and it's no more than assumption as I'm unsure as to how this would work) that the TOC would have arranged for a taxi at their own cost to transport the OP back to her destination, would it not be a reasonable compromise for them to reimburse at least what the cost to them would have been had they done so?

 

[najaB]

Assuming (and it's no more than assumption as I'm unsure as to how this would work) that the TOC would have arranged for a taxi at their own cost to transport the OP back to her destination, would it not be a reasonable compromise for them to reimburse at least what the cost to them would have been had they done so?

It would, yes.

 

[najaB]

In my possibly drunken state (although, I remember everything clearly), it didn't occur to me to look for a help point, especially given how useless they have been to me on previous occasions. Havant on a Friday night isn't the nicest place to be stranded, so that's why I hailed a taxi from the nearby rank.

It's completely understandable why you hailed a taxi, and safety always takes priority. I'm just making the point that the TOC would be within their rights to say "We aren't going to pay out for a taxi because MassDiscussion never told us they were stranded."

 

[AlterEgo]

There are two help points at Havant, one on each platform.

In my opinion the TOC should refund the taxi fare here because had the OP used the help point that's exactly what the TOC would have done anyway - pay for a taxi.

 

[Haywain]

In my opinion the TOC should refund the taxi fare here because had the OP used the help point that's exactly what the TOC would have done anyway - pay for a taxi.

I would agree, except that the OP states they didn't use (or look for) the help point:

My brother had kindly walked me to the station when I realised that the last train had been cancelled. In my possibly drunken state (although, I remember everything clearly), it didn't occur to me to look for a help point, especially given how useless they have been to me on previous occasions. Havant on a Friday night isn't the nicest place to be stranded, so that's why I hailed a taxi from the nearby rank.

 

[AlterEgo]

I would agree, except that the OP states they didn't use (or look for) the help point:

But what extra cost has the OP incurred the TOC by failing to look for the help point (I agree this is his fault for not seeking help)?

If he'd found the help point, a taxi would have been provided and the TOC would have paid for a taxi.

 

[najaB]

But what extra cost has the OP incurred the TOC by failing to look for the help point (I agree this is his fault for not seeking help)?

Many (most?) TOCs have contracts with taxi firms - one would assume that the contract terms include discounted rates. Also, there may have been other passenger(s) who could have shared the taxi.

 

[Silverdale]

But what extra cost has the OP incurred the TOC by failing to look for the help point (I agree this is his fault for not seeking help)?

Apart from the likelihood that Southern have negotiated a lower rate with taxi companies, potentially there were other passengers stranded further along the line, as a result of the cancellation. If that was the case and they had known about the OP, a taxi could have been shared.

 

[island]

As there were later trains which could have got you to Southampton, albeit not direct, I don’t think there is any need for Southern to refund you for your taxi fare.

 

[Silverdale]

There is a later advertised connecting service to Southampton, via Southwest Trains.

But at what stage was the direct (Southern) service cancelled? If it was the case that the direct service was delayed, the connecting service may have departed before the direct service was finally announced as cancelled. I had assumed something like this must have occurred, otherwise surely Southern would have declined to make any refund at all.

 

[furlong]

Again, it would be for station staff / the CIS or PA system to provide instructions if they wanted passengers to take the following (delayed) Portsmouth train and had arranged for the Southampton connection to be held at Hilsea if necessary. (Looks like the connection time there was actually 3 minutes minus door opening/closing times.)

 

[furlong]

But at what stage was the direct (Southern) service cancelled?

That's unclear from publicly-available information. It appears that it ran as far as Havant but got there over an hour late. But what matters is what information was given to passengers at the station at or before the scheduled time of departure.