Delay Repay not valid under revised timetable (Northern)

[Fuzzytop]

Hi all, I booked an Advance ticket about 10 days before travel. The first leg of the journey was on the Northern network during strike action. Us Aire Valley lot often get lucky and find that all of the Skipton-Leeds services run during strike action, so I'd presumed this was the case. Unfortunately, it turned out that my train was cancelled.

I couldn't have left any earlier, so waited for the next service. This made me over an hour late into my destination and so I duly put in a claim for Delay Repay. However, this was rejected, on the grounds that a revised timetable was available at 10pm the evening before, and that I should have "replanned my journey accordingly". Sure enough, Northern have a clause in their Passenger Promise that states the same (page 10).

Is this condition really fair? I've managed to steer clear of the Southern and Merseyrail networks during strike action, but a previous experience with the Caledonian Sleeper where engineering works with 7 days notice meant our arrival was 30 minutes delayed suggested that I might get some compensation, so it's disappointing to get such a passenger-unfriendly response here.

 

[matt_world2004]

Hi all, I booked an Advance ticket about 10 days before travel. The first leg of the journey was on the Northern network during strike action. Us Aire Valley lot often get lucky and find that all of the Skipton-Leeds services run during strike action, so I'd presumed this was the case. Unfortunately, it turned out that my train was cancelled.

I couldn't have left any earlier, so waited for the next service. This made me over an hour late into my destination and so I duly put in a claim for Delay Repay. However, this was rejected, on the grounds that a revised timetable was available at 10pm the evening before, and that I should have "replanned my journey accordingly". Sure enough, Northern have a clause in their Passenger Promise that states the same (page 10).

Is this condition really fair? I've managed to steer clear of the Southern and Merseyrail networks during strike action, but a previous experience with the Caledonian Sleeper where engineering works with 7 days notice meant our arrival was 30 minutes delayed suggested that I might get some compensation, so it's disappointing to get such a passenger-unfriendly response here.

I thought dr was based on the timetable when you originally purchased the ticket.

 

[crehld]

This sounds a bit off to me, but to be sure can you please confirm that the ticket you purchased was an Advance ticket (i.e. one limited to specific trains and appropriate connections only - it will specifically state "Advance" on the top of it), and not simply an anytime/off-peak ticket purchased in advance.

Can you also confirm that regardless of ticket type, when you sold your ticket did it came with a specific itinerary?

It would also help to know what your proposed itinerary was, and what your actual journey was.

 

[gray1404]

This sounds quite clear to me. You booked an advance ticket. The train you wished to travel on as part of the booked itinerary when you booked the advance ticket was cancelled. You therefore traveled on the next available service (which you are entitled to do so) and arrived at your final destination 30 or more minutes late. You therefore qualify for delay repay.

Northern have incorrectly rejected your claim. Although you had an option you replan your journey you were under no duty to do this and there basis for rejecting your claim is unfounded. What matters here is the itinerary produced when you booked your advance ticket, they did not adhere to that.

You are therefore due delay repay. You have the option of writing back to them and asking them to have a Manager look at the case again. You also have to option, be that at this point or once they have responded again, of taking your case to Transport Focus.

 

[AlterEgo]

This sounds quite clear to me. You booked an advance ticket. The train you wished to travel on as part of the booked itinerary when you booked the advance ticket was cancelled. You therefore traveled on the next available service (which you are entitled to do so) and arrived at your final destination 30 or more minutes late. You therefore qualify for delay repay.

Northern have incorrectly rejected your claim. Although you had an option you replan your journey you were under no duty to do this and there basis for rejecting your claim is unfounded. What matters here is the itinerary produced when you booked your advance ticket, they did not adhere to that.

You are therefore due delay repay. You have the option of writing back to them and asking them to have a Manager look at the case again. You also have to option, be that at this point or once they have responded again, of taking your case to Transport Focus.

I agree, particularly with the bit in bold.

There used to be ATOC (now RDG) guidance on this, but it is very old, and I no longer have access to it of course.

VTWC and XC never routinely declined DR for the "emergency timetable" reason. Even when the Dawlish collapse happened XC honoured DR for journeys booked before the incident.

 

[najaB]

Hi all, I booked an Advance ticket about 10 days before travel.

Was it an Advance type ticket, or a ticket bought in advance? If it was the former then delay repay is payable - without question - if the train you were booked onto didn't run.

 

[Fuzzytop]

It was indeed a true 'Advance', for fixed trains as follows:

1. 2H59 1717 Skipton to Leeds 1759
2. 1A46 1815 Leeds to Stevenage 2001
3. 1C74 2017 Stevenage to Cambridge 2055

(Actual journey was 1747 from Skipton, 1915 from Leeds, and a quick sprint over to the 2117 from Stevenage, arriving 2157ish. I could have taken the 1845 from Leeds, and changed at Peterborough via March but I would have arrived later into Cambridge.)

As well as the ticket, I attached a pdf of this itinerary, together with the booking date, to my original claim as proof of purchase before any timetable revisions.

Of course the Northern service doesn't issue reservations, so technically the only reservation and therefore 'fixed' train was the second leg of my journey. Certainly under my interpretation of the NRCoT, I would have been able to take a previous service and wait it out at Leeds, but I wasn't able to do so - and the Northern response seems to suggest that it was my responsibility to put up with travelling earlier, or shut up!

 

[Fuzzytop]

It goes without saying that I'm very grateful for the advice so far. Ultimately this is a matter of £20, which I'd rather have in my pocket given the inconvenience caused, but it's not the end of the world - especially compared with some of the problems elsewhere on this board.

As the messages so far are exactly what I thought when reading the Northern response, I think I'll ask for this to be escalated. Will let you know how it goes!

 

[najaB]

It was indeed a true 'Advance', for fixed trains as follows:

1. 2H59 1717 Skipton to Leeds 1759
2. 1A46 1815 Leeds to Stevenage 2001
3. 1C74 2017 Stevenage to Cambridge 2055

As well as the ticket, I attached a pdf of this itinerary, ...

That should be all you needed to send them - you have an itinerary which includes a train which did not run. End of story.

As in your case, not everyone can travel early to avoid being caught up in their mess.

 

[crehld]

That should be all you needed to send them - you have an itinerary which includes a train which did not run. End of story.

As in your case, not everyone can travel early to avoid being caught up in their mess.

Agreed.

It was indeed a true 'Advance', for fixed trains as follows:

1. 2H59 1717 Skipton to Leeds 1759
2. 1A46 1815 Leeds to Stevenage 2001
3. 1C74 2017 Stevenage to Cambridge 2055

(Actual journey was 1747 from Skipton, 1915 from Leeds, and a quick sprint over to the 2117 from Stevenage, arriving 2157ish. I could have taken the 1845 from Leeds, and changed at Peterborough via March but I would have arrived later into Cambridge.)

As well as the ticket, I attached a pdf of this itinerary, together with the booking date, to my original claim as proof of purchase before any timetable revisions.

Get back to Northern explaining they are wrong - ask them to reconsider the claim. State the original itinerary and you actual journey as you did in your post. Be clear that your original itinerary was not honoured, you were over an hour delayed and you expect the full £20 (or whatever it was) in compensation as per their scheme.

Try to be as clear and concise as possible. My impression is customer service agents get so many of these that they don't really pay all that much attention to them, and if things are not stated with absolute clarity then a willful lack of attention leads to these sorts of avoidable errors, creating more work and hassle for everyone.

Let us know how you get on!

 

[northwichcat]

My impression is customer service agents get so many of these that they don't really pay all that much attention to them, and if things are not stated with absolute clarity then a willful lack of attention leads to these sorts of avoidable errors, creating more work and hassle for everyone.

They've probably been told by their manager "If anyone makes a claim for a day when there was strike action the claim is based on the strike timetable not the normal one" and follow that rule for every ticket type. It sounds like Northern do not have sufficient CSA to deal with Delay Repay as they are always missing their targets for issuing refunds, which suggests the ones they do have are working in a fast, high pressure environment.

 

[crehld]

They've probably been told by their manager "If anyone makes a claim for a day when there was strike action the claim is based on the strike timetable not the normal one" and follow that rule for every ticket type. It sounds like Northern do not have sufficient CSA to deal with Delay Repay as they are always missing their targets for issuing refunds, which suggests the ones they do have are working in a fast, high pressure environment.

Indeed, I suspect that willfiul lack of attention I mentioned is primarily located at the management level.

 

[185]

Indeed, I suspect that willfiul lack of attention I mentioned is primarily located at the management level.

Are they still contracting CS functions out to Carillion? Was passed someone the other day minus ticket / staff pass initially claiming to work for Northern, and after some questioning it was Carillion, and more questions, it was infact her brother who worked for Carillion.

 

[Fuzzytop]

an update:

Thank you for your correspondence. I am afraid as you travelled on a revised service which was advertised at least a week in advance of the industrial action and you were not caused an delay on that service you are not entitled to compensation.

Surely Northern is not permitted to change the meaning of the NRCoT to suit them?

 

[najaB]

Surely Northern is not permitted to change the meaning of the NRCoT to suit them?

This is one where there's no room for debate - you were given an itinerary and the train you were booked to use did not run. End of story.

 

[Fuzzytop]

I think so too. But that was my third attempt - it doesn't seem like they're going to budge.

 

[Darandio]

I think so too. But that was my third attempt - it doesn't seem like they're going to budge.

Oh they'll budge alright, but you will have to take it further.

Others are in a better position to advise, but i'd assume it's time to go to Transport Focus?

 

[najaB]

I think so too. But that was my third attempt - it doesn't seem like they're going to budge.

If I was in your position I would write to the MD stating precisely why you are unsatisfied with their response and if that doesn't get anywhere let it drop. Yes, they're in the wrong, but at some point you have to ask if it's worth it.

 

[Darandio]

If I was in your position I would write to the MD stating precisely why you are unsatisfied with their response and if that doesn't get anywhere let it drop. Yes, they're in the wrong, but at some point you have to ask if it's worth it.

It's very, very rare I disagree with you, but i'll have to here.

Letting it drop is precisely the reason why they continue to get away with it. They know that people just haven't got the will, or expect that they will take their reasoning as correct and without argument, it's as if they believe they can talk people into believing they are wrong.

The issue here is whether the OP does want to take it further, they have already stated it isn't the end of the world. We can advise all we like, but it's their time and effort after all.

 

[najaB]

It's very, very rare I disagree with you, but i'll have to here.

Oh, you're more than welcome to disagree. For the avoidance of doubt, I wasn't advising the OP to let it drop, just saying that I probably would.

 

[Ianno87]

I'm taking up with Northern a similar situation to the OP, and was similarly declined Delay Repay.

Again, a travel itenerary for an Advance ticket booked before strike was announced. Ticket was booked to Lostock, which had no scheduled trains on strike day, so could only get to Bolton, itself reached about 25 late compared to original itinerary due to amended timetable.

Again, fobbed off with excuse that I could have sought a full refund had I chosen not to travel (not really an option when I only get to see my Mum a handful of times a year). That and, you know, they'd have to send me an e-mail to tell me about the strike (they didn't as I'd booked via GWR) to tell me to amend my journey, so I'd have known that was an option!

Also protesting on the grounds that there were no published times for the bus on which tickets were accepted to Lostock, so no way to measure how late I was even if I was late by the amended timetable on trains to Bolton. We'll see...

 

[Kite159]

Couldn't you send them a letter before action stating that you are making a claim under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 that services provided didn't match up to what has been agreed with the supplied itinerary?

 

[gray1404]

It is important that you go to Transport Focus with this. They will just keep getting away with it otherwise.

 

[Fuzzytop]

Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but it would seem that there are not only financial advantages to be had for TOCs incorrectly refusing compensation in this way, but remarkably few disadvantages as well.

I've put in a request to Passenger Focus for my case and will of course share their response. After all, I'm sure Northern wouldn't let it drop quite so easily if I had failed to pay up!

 

[Fuzzytop]

An update: although Northern still don't think I'm entitled to Delay Repay, they've offered to refund the ticket as a goodwill gesture after an advisor from Transport Focus spoke to them. Sadly their generosity didn't extend to the complimentary tickets I opted for on the Delay Repay form.

Positive that they've given me money, sure, but I'm not really counting this a success. Even post Transport Focus there's no acknowledgement of a mistake, and the refund from the cheap-ish advance alas won't cover the ride up the Cumbrian Coast I was holding out for...

 

[yorkie]

An update: although Northern still don't think I'm entitled to Delay Repay, they've offered to refund the ticket as a goodwill gesture after an advisor from Transport Focus spoke to them. Sadly their generosity didn't extend to the complimentary tickets I opted for on the Delay Repay form.

Positive that they've given me money, sure, but I'm not really counting this a success. Even post Transport Focus there's no acknowledgement of a mistake, and the refund from the cheap-ish advance alas won't cover the ride up the Cumbrian Coast I was holding out for...

If they have refunded you then the case is resolved, but they are wrong to claim that they were not obliged to pay it.

You could write to Northern and inform them that, while you are glad they refunded the monies owed to you, as they were liable for under the terms of the contract (which was formed when you purchased the ticket), you would like the inadequate wording of the response to be reviewed by a senior manager and for appropriate training to take place, to ensure that correct information is given out, and that refunds are processed quickly and without quibble in future.

Unfortunately I do not think you will get anywhere; their customer services department is a Mickey Mouse operation at times.

 

[185143]

If they have refunded you then the case is resolved, but they are wrong to claim that they were not obliged to pay it.

You could write to Northern and inform them that, while you are glad they refunded the monies owed to you, as they were liable for under the terms of the contract (which was formed when you purchased the ticket), you would like the inadequate wording of the response to be reviewed by a senior manager and for appropriate training to take place, to ensure that correct information is given out, and that refunds are processed quickly and without quibble in future.

Unfortunately I do not think you will get anywhere; their customer services department is a Mickey Mouse operation at times.

Those times being 24 hours a day, 7 days a week?

 

[northwichcat]

It is important that you go to Transport Focus with this. They will just keep getting away with it otherwise.

Depending on where you live a letter to your MP might also be a good idea. If your MP has an important role e.g. someone like Paul Maynard then a letter to the Northern MD on House of Commons headed paper, signed by a government minister won't be ignored.