Delay repay on March 13th

[aye2beeviasea]

Hello everyone

On March 13 as you know there's strike action affecting Northern and Southern services.

I have an advance ticket that day, starting with a Northern service, ending with a Southern service, with a Virgin west coast service in the middle. I bought the ticket from Virgin west coast.

Northern have published a revised timetable that says there will be a reduced service on the line I need, but I will need to start 31 minutes earlier to make my Virgin connection.

If that and all my other services run fine, am I right to assume that having to start early counts as delay? Will Northern's delay repay website be able to cope with that if my arrival time is actually correct?

If I make my connection and the Southern leg is also delayed, would I claim from Northern if the Southern delay is less than theirs and from Southern if it's more?

And what happens if the Northern service fails to arrive or is too crowded to get on? The only possible chance to make my Virgin connection would be to get a metro tram - will I be able to get my ticket repaid?

Thanks

 

[yorkie]

If that and all my other services run fine, am I right to assume that having to start early counts as delay?

1) You do not have to start early. (You may choose to do so if you wish)
2) Starting early does not count as a delay. You are only delayed if your arrival time is delayed.

Will Northern's delay repay website be able to cope with that if my arrival time is actually correct?

If you arrive on time because you chose to depart early, you are not entitled to Delay Repay.

If I make my connection and the Southern leg is also delayed, would I claim from Northern if the Southern delay is less than theirs and from Southern if it's more?

If the train that causes you to be delayed is operated by GTR (the company running trains branded Southern) then your claim is with that company, and not with Northern.

And what happens if the Northern service fails to arrive or is too crowded to get on? The only possible chance to make my Virgin connection would be to get a metro tram - will I be able to get my ticket repaid?

If you can give details of your itinerary along with details of your requirements, we will be able to give much better advice.

Are you particularly keen to arrive on time, and you are prepared to depart early in order to achieve that?

Or are you content to take the first available services from the time the first train you were booked to depart, and take any compensation as appropriate?

 

[gray1404]

If a delay to your Northern or Virgin train causes you to be delayed 30 or more minutes to your overall journey, you are entitled to compensation. For Southern you only need to be delayed 15 minutes to claim.

 

[Haywain]

Having published a revised timetable, Northern will be unlikely to pay Delay Repay based on your original times. Northern's terms and conditions state:

If we publish an alternative timetable (for example for engineering works or during prolonged poor weather) we will compensate you based on that.

 

[yorkie]

Delay Repay will have to be calculated against the timetable that was in place when the ticket has booked (whether Northern like it or not)

 

[najaB]

Delay Repay will have to be calculated against the timetable that was in place when the ticket has booked (whether Northern like it or not)

Surely that would only apply if an itinerary was produced at the same time?

 

[northwichcat]

And what happens if the Northern service fails to arrive or is too crowded to get on? The only possible chance to make my Virgin connection would be to get a metro tram - will I be able to get my ticket repaid?

Northern currently say the following about ticket acceptance on Metrolink

Metrolink (Manchester) will accept monthly and above season tickets on the following Metrolink routes:

Altrincham – Manchester
Ashton-under-Lyne – Manchester
Eccles – Manchester
East Didsbury – Manchester
Rochdale – Manchester

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/industrial-action

However, this has changed twice already so it would probably be best to check the website again tomorrow for the latest information.

Tickets are also being accepted on Arriva buses but without knowing what your journey is it's not possible to say whether that could be of any use or not.

If the first train you intend to catch is cancelled and you decide not to travel you can get a full refund on your ticket. If the first train is cancelled and you choose to find an alternative method of making the second train you intended to catch then you aren't entitled to a refund, unless you buy a new ticket for the shortened journey.

 

[yorkie]

Surely that would only apply if an itinerary was produced at the same time?

The contract is set when the ticket is purchased. Obviously I'd advise people to retain evidence of that contract, in the form of a printed itinerary, but I don't see how that is essential.

 

[najaB]

The contract is set when the ticket is purchased. Obviously I'd advise people to retain evidence of that contract, in the form of a printed itinerary, but I don't see how that is essential.

If I purchase a ticket sans-itinerary then the only contract that has been formed is for transportation between the points on the ticket on the date(s) and time of day (Anytime v Off Peak) at which it is valid.

I would be entitled to a refund of the unused ticket if the journey could no longer be made at a suitable time, but I'm not as confident as you that I could claim a delay without any proof whatsoever that I actually incurred a delay (assuming that the trains run to the amended timetable).

 

[221129]

If I purchase a ticket sans-itinerary then the only contract that has been formed is for transportation between the points on the ticket on the date(s) and time of day (Anytime v Off Peak) at which it is valid.

I would be entitled to a refund of the unused ticket if the journey could no longer be made at a suitable time, but I'm not as confident as you that I could claim a delay without any proof whatsoever that I actually incurred a delay (assuming that the trains run to the amended timetable).

I agree with Yorkie, FWIW I have successfully claimed in these circumstances before.

 

[najaB]

I agree with Yorkie, FWIW I have successfully claimed in these circumstances before.

I'm glad to hear that you have made a successful claim in those circumstances. Out of curiosity was this since they changed to paying in cash?

 

[Olympian]

Surely that would only apply if an itinerary was produced at the same time?

The OP has an advance ticket so it would have been purchased with an agreed itinerary.

 

[najaB]

The OP has an advance ticket so it would have been purchased with an agreed itinerary.

I know. I was speaking to the general case.

 

[bolli]

If I purchase a ticket sans-itinerary then the only contract that has been formed is for transportation between the points on the ticket on the date(s) and time of day (Anytime v Off Peak) at which it is valid.

I would be entitled to a refund of the unused ticket if the journey could no longer be made at a suitable time, but I'm not as confident as you that I could claim a delay without any proof whatsoever that I actually incurred a delay (assuming that the trains run to the amended timetable).

The Consumer Rights Act (Section 11 (1)) makes it quite clear that the "Goods", in this case a Rail Journey, must be exactly as described. The journey "as described" would be the original journey.

Any booking dated prior to the emergency strike timetable being published, for the original trains should be entitled to a refund, as the "goods" are not as originally described.

However, any booking made after the upload to the booking systems (ie- DARWIN), would not be entitled to compensation, as the "goods" would have been described correctly upon booking.

 

[najaB]

The Consumer Rights Act (Section 11 (1)) makes it quite clear that the "Goods", in this case a Rail Journey, must be exactly as described. The journey "as described" would be the original journey.

That's the point I'm making. Let's say I go to the station and say "I'd like a ticket for to Manchester for next Saturday. I don't know exactly what time I want to travel, any train after midday."

Is it your contention that if they introduce an emergency timetable and the 2pm train is cancelled and I get the 4pm train instead, I should get 100% delay repay compensation, even though the 4pm train runs to time?

 

[bolli]

That's the point I'm making. Let's say I go to the station and say "I'd like a ticket for to Manchester for next Saturday. I don't know exactly what time I want to travel, any train after midday."

Is it your contention that if they introduce an emergency timetable and the 2pm train is cancelled and I get the 4pm train instead, I should get 100% delay repay compensation, even though the 4pm train runs to time?

Yes, because when you booked, the 2pm train was an option, that you could have taken, even if you didn't specify a ticket.

Imagine the scenario, where you said exactly that, having seen that there was a train every 30 minutes, however when you arrived you were told that "The only train for 3 hours has just left".

Even though you didn't specify a time, you were offered a service that was not as originally described.

 

[island]

The contract is set when the ticket is purchased. Obviously I'd advise people to retain evidence of that contract, in the form of a printed itinerary, but I don't see how that is essential.

DelayRepay isn't part of the contract though, so the TOC is entitled to calculate it based on such criteria as it sees fit. I expect Southern would pay based on the original timetable though.

As the TOC has however committed an anticipatory breach of the contract, the customer is within his rights to request rescission and a refund.

 

[bolli]

DelayRepay isn't part of the contract though, so the TOC is entitled to calculate it based on such criteria as it sees fit. I expect Southern would pay based on the original timetable though.

A minimum level of compensation is specified in the NR Conditions of Travel, Section 32.5, with exclusions for when the delay is outside of the Railway's responsibility (this isn't).

 

[island]

Correct. The threshold is longer and refund level is less than DelayRepay, but it is an entitlement under the contract of carriage.

 

[najaB]

Yes, because when you booked, the 2pm train was an option, that you could have taken, even if you didn't specify a ticket.

I dunno, that's skirting dangerously close to 'potential delays' territory to me. Delay repay should be based on the delay you actually experienced, not the delay you might have experienced.

 

[yorkie]

Consumer law does apply to train tickets, so any talk of TOCs being able to weasel out of it under technicalities are false.

The timetable at the time the contract was agreed is clearly what any delay compensation should be calculated from.

Talk of Delay Repay being outwith the contract because it goes beyond the minimum standards set in NRCoT is irrelevant and misleading; franchised train companies who offer Delay Repay are committed to doing so under the terms of their franchise commitment and companies advertise it and agree to it when you buy the ticket, so their commitment to offer Delay Repay is protected under consumer law.

What I have posted is correct (and has been checked by someone with vast experience of dealing with Delay Repay claims).

 

[yorkie]

I dunno, that's skirting dangerously close to 'potential delays' territory to me. Delay repay should be based on the delay you actually experienced, not the delay you might have experienced.

If a passenger books a ticket with the understanding that they will expect to arrive at a particular time, as advertised, and are then delayed, they have experienced that delay and are entitled to claim.

If an emergency timetable has been brought in that does not in any way invalidate the original terms of the contract.

 

[lejog]

The Consumer Rights Act (Section 11 (1)) makes it quite clear that the "Goods", in this case a Rail Journey, must be exactly as described. The journey "as described" would be the original journey.

Any booking dated prior to the emergency strike timetable being published, for the original trains should be entitled to a refund, as the "goods" are not as originally described.

However, any booking made after the upload to the booking systems (ie- DARWIN), would not be entitled to compensation, as the "goods" would have been described correctly upon booking.

A rail journey is not classified as goods but a service. The equivalent clause for services is

Information about the trader or service to be binding

(1)Every contract to supply a service is to be treated as including as a term of the contract anything that is said or written to the consumer, by or on behalf of the trader, about the trader or the service, if—

(a)it is taken into account by the consumer when deciding to enter into the contract

This is new for 2015, so there is little or no case law yet to iron out the details. However its fairly plain that if an itinerary is produced before the consumer goes ahead with the purchase, e.g. when booking any journey online, it becomes part of the contract.

 

[lejog]

That's the point I'm making. Let's say I go to the station and say "I'd like a ticket for to Manchester for next Saturday. I don't know exactly what time I want to travel, any train after midday."

Is it your contention that if they introduce an emergency timetable and the 2pm train is cancelled and I get the 4pm train instead, I should get 100% delay repay compensation, even though the 4pm train runs to time?

If they go to the station and buy a ticket in the knowledge that the timetable specifies a say hourly service to Manchester after midday, and base their decision to buy on that timetable, then its my opinion that provision of a regular service would become part of the contract. Whether or not Delay Repay is part of the contract, I'm less sure of. However it would certainly be simpler for the TOCs if Delay Repay reflected consumer rights.