Delay Repay, over an hour late, who's to blame?

[Smeags]

Hi,

A couple of weeks ago, I submitted a Delay Repay claim to Northern Rail for this journey...

This was my return leg and I was travelling from Hunts Cross to Manchester. I got to Hunts Cross, looked up the journey on my phone - the usual journey would be to get a local train to Liverpool South Parkway, and get the Manchester train from there. However, this one was cancelled. It was ran by East Midlands Railway.

45mins later, there was a train from Hunts Cross to Manchester direct, ran by Northern. I boarded this train. We travelled one stop, about 2mins away, and the train broke down! Everyone had to get off and wait for a replacement. Eventually, the replacement showed up and I got to Manchester. Over an hour later than I would have, had everything been running normally.

Northern rejected my claim, saying it was East Midland's fault, not theirs. The way I see it, it's both their faults (I'm just used to going to Northern, because they run my usual local trains and always have issues with them).

The rejection email had a link where I can appeal - should I do this? Or go to East Midlands? (they say they've forwarded it on to East Midlands for me, but this email was December 22nd and I've still heard nothing from East Midlands).

Thanks

Chris

 

[221129]

Northern rejected my claim, saying it was East Midland's fault

Northern are correct. You need to claim from EMR as it was their cancellation that came first.

 

[krus_aragon]

The general rule is that you claim from the operator of the first train to have delayed you. In this instance, it was an EMR train (as that's the one you expected to catch, and never turned up).

 

[yorkie]

I agree with others; the company that instigated the delay was EMR

If further delay occurs, which increases the value of your claim, that's just tough luck on EMR's part. The claim applies to the whole journey, based on the contracted arrival time vs actual arrival time.

 

[najaB]

The way I see it, it's both their faults (I'm just used to going to Northern, because they run my usual local trains and always have issues with them).

Look at this this way - had the EMR train run on time you never would have been on the delayed Northern train. So the claim goes to EMR.

 

[gray1404]

Submit a claim to EMR. Make sure this is done within 28 days of the journey.

 

[sheff1]

Can you clarify the scheduled departure and arrival times of
(i) the services you originally intended to take and
(ii) the Northern train you actually caught

and also the actual arrival time of the delayed Northern train.

I don't think there are any EMR trains from Hunts Cross to Liverpool South Parkway (LPY) so assume the EMR cancellation was the train from LPY to Manchester.

 

[JBuchananGB]

There are 2 EMR services on a weekday which call at Hunts Cross and LPY, at 0815 and 1912. Otherwise there is 15 minute interval service by Merseyrail.

Having missed the EMR which was cancelled, it is hard to understand why the OP stood and watched 3 Merseyrail trains set off for LPY, unless he knew that he had definitely missed his connection.

Further clarification definitely needed

 

[Starmill]

There are 2 EMR services on a weekday which call at Hunts Cross and LPY, at 0815 and 1912. Otherwise there is 15 minute interval service by Merseyrail.

I quite don't understand why one might want to travel on either?

Why would you take the 0815 EMR from Hunts Cross to Liverpool South Parkway when there is a 0759 EMR direct to Manchester Oxford Road, an 0804 Northern direct to Manchester Oxford Road, and Merseyrail departures at 0806 and 0821 to Liverpool South Parkway? The former has a connection to an express Northern train to Manchester Oxford Road at 0826 and the latter has a connection to a stopping Northern service at 0834 (which doesn't call at Hunts Cross).

Why would you take the 1912 EMR from Hunts Cross to Liverpool South Parkway when there is a direct 1913 Northern service to Manchester Oxford Road?

This assumes a weekday journey without amended timetables due to engineering works, but the OP hasn't told us what day they travelled on.

 

[Smeags]

Can you clarify the scheduled departure and arrival times of
(i) the services you originally intended to take and
(ii) the Northern train you actually caught

and also the actual arrival time of the delayed Northern train.

I don't think there are any EMR trains from Hunts Cross to Liverpool South Parkway (LPY) so assume the EMR cancellation was the train from LPY to Manchester.

Hi. To clarify...

When I checked National Rail's website on my phone, it said I was to take a train to Liverpool South Parkway (Merseyrail). And then an EMR train from there to Manchester. It said part of this journey was cancelled, and when I clicked for details, saw that it was the train from Liverpool South Parkway to Manchester that was cancelled. The Merseyrail train was still running, but there was no point getting on it, when I could see the connecting train was cancelled. The next fastest route was to get the Northern train from Hunts Cross.

I arrived at Hunts Cross at about 12:30, and the train I got on departed at about 1.15. And this was December 16th.

Thanks for the answers. Its pretty clear then that I need to go to EMR. I just don't know if I still have the ticket now though Might have binned it after taking the photo of it... Hopefully Northern really did pass on the claim for me.

 

[Kilopylae]

If you never boarded a train to Liverpool South Parkway, it would be my understanding that you were not strictly affected by the cancellation of the East Midlands Train - after all, otherwise I could submit a claim to any train company that ran a delayed train out of my local station, claiming that I had intended to travel on that train. You only commenced your journey on heading towards Hunts Cross for the Northern train, and that was the only part of your actual journey that was delayed, by the breakdown of the Northern train. I would submit a claim to Northern for the delay directly incurred by that train and ignore the E.M.T. service as you've no grounds to claim it affected your journey.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi. To clarify...

When I checked National Rail's website on my phone, it said I was to take a train to Liverpool South Parkway (Merseyrail). And then an EMR train from there to Manchester. It said part of this journey was cancelled, and when I clicked for details, saw that it was the train from Liverpool South Parkway to Manchester that was cancelled. The Merseyrail train was still running, but there was no point getting on it, when I could see the connecting train was cancelled. The next fastest route was to get the Northern train from Hunts Cross.

I arrived at Hunts Cross at about 12:30, and the train I got on departed at about 1.15. And this was December 16th.

Thanks for the answers. Its pretty clear then that I need to go to EMR. I just don't know if I still have the ticket now though Might have binned it after taking the photo of it... Hopefully Northern really did pass on the claim for me.

notwithstanding other advice on who to claims form - since claims on line only require a photo or scan of the ticket it probably does not matter that you may have binned the actual ticket concerned, you can use the photo you originally took.

 

[najaB]

otherwise I could submit a claim to any train company that ran a delayed train out of my local station, claiming that I had intended to travel on that train.

Only if that train would have been of use to complete the journey you actually made.

I would submit a claim to Northern for the delay directly incurred by that train and ignore the E.M.T. service as you've no grounds to claim it affected your journey.

I disagree. The OP had planned an itinerary based on that train running and only re-planned their journey because it was cancelled. As I can see it the delay to their journey is no greater than had they travelled to Liverpool South Parkway in order to not board the cancelled train.

 

[Smeags]

I also disagree. I was there at 12:30. If the EMR train had been running, I would have arrived at 1.40. I ended up arriving at about 3.00.

However, I hope the train companies won't view it this way :/

 

[Starmill]

This is a good example of why I would usually seek advice from station staff or a station help point if there is any doubt about what is happening or how to get to my destination.

If I show my tickets and explain where I need to get to, and then follow the advice as given, nobody can suggest that I should have done something different when it comes to time to make a claim for delay compensation.

It seems clear in this case that the first cause of the delay was East Midlands Railway.

 

[Kilopylae]

This is a good example of why I would usually seek advice from station staff or a station help point if there is any doubt about what is happening or how to get to my destination.

If I show my tickets and explain where I need to get to, and then follow the advice as given, nobody can suggest that I should have done something different

This tbh. When things start to go wrong the best thing is always to make sure that what you do has been endorsed

 

[Smeags]

I did actually do this. But I don't think I added this detail, when I made the claim. I think I only added what I've written above. Was this important?

I said I arrived at 12:30 before. It actually would have been about 12:20 - 12:25. I took an Uber to the station, so I've just checked the time in the Uber app.

Timeline is....

- First, I looked up on my phone the times, and saw the cancellation (I had typed in Hunts Cross to Manchester).

- Spoke to the man in the ticket office. Explained the situation. Asked, am I going to have to wait til 1.15? He said there should be another train at 12:35 from Liverpool South Parkway (which hadn't showed up on my phone).

- Did another search on my phone. This time, Liverpool South Parkway to Manchester Stns. Then the 12:35 came up, and that train was also cancelled! At this point, he said yes, I'll have to wait for the 1.15. To have made that train anyway, I would have had to get the 12:21 out of Hunts Cross. And I think I had just missed this one anyway.


When I did that second search on my phone, I took a screenshot of the results showing the cancellations. I still have the screenshot but didn't upload it in the claim. The time in the screenshot is 12:29.
Also - after the train broken down, and everyone had to get off at the next station, Halewood - I took a picture, to prove I was actually there. Again, still have this picture, but didn't upload it in the claim.

 

[Smeags]

The one mentioned above.

Also, I remember now, because there's another screenshot - I did a search whilst stuck at Halewood later, wondering when I'd be getting out of there again...

Everyone ended up waiting on that platform for about 40mins in the cold for a replacement (unlike Hunts Cross, it had no indoor area with a ticket office).

I was on crutches with an injured leg and the cold didn't help at all! (this detail, I did put in the claim).

 

[yorkie]

If you never boarded a train to Liverpool South Parkway, it would be my understanding that you were not strictly affected by the cancellation of the East Midlands Train - after all, otherwise I could submit a claim to any train company that ran a delayed train out of my local station, claiming that I had intended to travel on that train. You only commenced your journey on heading towards Hunts Cross for the Northern train, and that was the only part of your actual journey that was delayed, by the breakdown of the Northern train. I would submit a claim to Northern for the delay directly incurred by that train and ignore the E.M.T. service as you've no grounds to claim it affected your journey.

This isn't correct.

Northern are actually correct.

If the original itinerary involved an EMR train and the cancellation of that train meant the customer had to take a Northern train, and this caused a delay to the journey, then EMR are liable. The fact the Northern train got further delayed and increased EMR's delay liabilities is just bad luck on the part of the Northern and the customer; it does not take the liability away from EMR.

 

[Kilopylae]

Yes, those who have corrected me are quite right. Ignore me - contact E.M.R. and make reference to your planned itinerary.

 

[Smeags]

Thanks. I will do this

 

[packermac]

Maybe EMR should read their own passenger charter (page 8, section, what counts as a delay?)
Compensation will be paid for your complete journey, including where the delay or cancellation of one of our trains causes you to miss a connecting train service by another UK train company.

 

[mmh]

Maybe EMR should read their own passenger charter (page 8, section, what counts as a delay?)
Compensation will be paid for your complete journey, including where the delay or cancellation of one of our trains causes you to miss a connecting train service by another UK train company.

Unfair criticism of EMR there - if you read the thread you'll see EMR have done and said nothing.

 

[sheff1]

I did actually do this. But I don't think I added this detail, when I made the claim. I think I only added what I've written above. Was this important?

For future reference, when including additional info it is important to only include relevant detail and leave out things which are not relevant to the delay incurred. The fact that you were advised by staff to take the Northern train due to the cancellation of the EMR train is relevant (and confirms that it is EMR who need to compensate you for the delay in reaching Manchester).

Although this was obviously not pleasant:

I was on crutches with an injured leg and the cold didn't help at all! (this detail, I did put in the claim).

it has no relevance to the cause or length of the delay and is not, therefore, something to include.