Delay Repay with Virgin / when is a return journey not a return journey

[furlong]

I may have missed it, but can you confirm you did travel on to London after the lengthy delay at Milton Keynes or did you abort the journey and return north from Milton Keynes ?

Presumably this:

I travelled with Virgin Trains on 15th June 2019 from Wilmslow to Euston.

(But yes - if the journey was abandoned, then different provisions would apply.)

 

[Mark Coley]

Presumably this:


(But yes - if the journey was abandoned, then different provisions would apply.)

I made it to London eventually when the line reopened after waiting for hours at Milton Keynes!

 

[30907]

Slightly OT, but not irrelevant: the LNER website makes it clear that delay repay (edit - sorry not refund) on a return only applies to the direction that was delayed.

 

[sheff1]

Slightly OT, but not irrelevant: the LNER website makes it clear that a refund on a return only applies tovthe direction that was delayed.

If they are saying that about refunds on a return ticket they are completely wrong.

However, it is irrelevant to this thread which is about the rules regarding Delay Repay compensation with two single tickets.

 

[yorkie]

Slightly OT, but not irrelevant: the LNER website makes it clear that a refund on a return only applies tovthe direction that was delayed.

Refunds do not apply to delayed journeys, so there is some confusion here.

But to be honest unless someone comes up with some groundbreaking information I think there isn't really anything to add until the passenger gets back to us with Virgin's response.

 

[gray1404]

Have you made a formal complaint to Virgin Trains Customer Relations? (step one) If so, have you asked for the case to be looked at by a Manager? (step two) If you have done both of those things then the next step is to take the matter to the Rail Ombudsman (step three).

If you have only submitted your delay repay claim and had it rejected and then appealed or questioned it and had a negative response, I suggest you make a complaint with Customer Relations, You can do this using the contact form on their website. https://www.virgintrains.co.uk/complaint-enquiry

 

[30907]

If they are saying that about refunds on a return ticket they are completely wrong.

However, it is irrelevant to this thread which is about the rules regarding Delay Repay compensation with two single tickets.

Apologies, used wrong word. Corrected now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Slightly OT, but not irrelevant: the LNER website makes it clear that delay repay (edit - sorry not refund) on a return only applies to the direction that was delayed.

For a journey delayed by two hours or more you receive a full refund of a return ticket (note return ticket, not return journey made of two single tickets).

This is clear enough on LNER's website:
https://www.lner.co.uk/customer-service/refunds/delay-repay/

It also says:

If you bought two separate Advance Single tickets to make a round trip, these don’t constitute a Return ticket. So the maximum claim will be 100% of the ticket used for the delayed journey.

 

[30907]

For a journey delayed by two hours or more you receive a full refund of a return ticket (note return ticket, not return journey made of two single tickets).

This is clear enough on LNER's website:
https://www.lner.co.uk/customer-service/refunds/delay-repay/

Yes, sorry, I should have been more specific.

 

[DaveB10780]

The way it works on the VTWC site is that you choose two singles, and if the two are the same and less than a month apart they turn into the respective return. So I can't think of any way in which anyone could be "fooled" in that manner.

Actually I think it only works that way of the 2 singles add up to the return price exactly. If they do not then you get 2 separate single tickets valid on 1 day each. To get a return you have to go through the check tickets with other operators and explicitly choose the return ticket. This is due to rounding down i.e. my normal OP return to London is £59.15 and each single is £29.55. I have remonstrated this with them before that I explicitly wish to buy a flexible return up front but they said nope.

 

[najaB]

What matters to the consumer is that they have booked a return journey, not that the industry has happened to choose to issue it as two separate single tickets.

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. The amount of Delay Repay is based on the ticket(s) held as well as in the journey being made. The OP was delayed during a journey for which he held a single ticket.

 

[yorkie]

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. The amount of Delay Repay is based on the ticket(s) held as well as in the journey being made. The OP was delayed during a journey for which he held a single ticket.

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. The important factor here is that the consumer has booked a return journey. The fact that the industry happened to choose to issue it as two separate single tickets has no real relevance; it can happen without warning and there is no material difference between a return journey for which two tickets for which two "single" portions are issued and a return journey for which tickets with "outward" and "return" portions are issued.

The way it works on the VTWC site is that you choose two singles, and if the two are the same and less than a month apart they turn into the respective return. So I can't think of any way in which anyone could be "fooled" in that manner.

The more you two try to defend the indefensible, the more encouraged I am to prove you both wrong. The more I look into it, the more convinced I am becoming that Virgin Trains would lose a legal case.

So, I search for a Railcard discounted ticket from Manchester to London departing around 9am and leaving around midday; I am presented with single options. It's made very clear througout the process that this is one return journey. It is not claimed to be two single journeys. Yet I am issued with two single tickets, regardless of whether or not the outward journey is before the time the Off Peak Return becomes valid.

If I search for an undiscounted ticket from Manchester to London departing around 9am and leaving around midday; I am aalso presented with single options. It's made very clear througout the process that this is one return journey. It is not claimed to be two single journeys. Yet I am issued with one return ticket, if I select the 0935 or later for the outward portion.

The passenger has no control over what is issued. I wouldn't say any "fooling" goes on as part of the booking process; any "fooling" is on the part of Virgin Trains if they refuse to pay appropriate compensation for a return journey because two singles were held. I am convinced it is unlawful for Virgin to be treating consumers differently based on things the consumer has no control over; a reasonable person would expect both the above journeys to be considered "return" journeys. Anyone who argues otherwise, as the saying goes, can't see the wood for the trees.

Click on the thumbnails if you want to see screenshots:

 

[najaB]

Delay Repay is based on the tickets actually held.

The fact that the tickets the OP was issued with might not have been the ticket that he wanted is a valid, but separate, issue.

Should VTWC wound their proverbial neck in a bit and pay out the additional compensation? Yes. Are they legally obligated to do so? Much less clear.

 

[yorkie]

Delay Repay is based on the tickets actually held.

I don't see how it can possibly be lawful to claim that a passenger who holds a Railcard is not entitled to delay repay for 100% of their return journey, while a passenger who does not hold a Railcard is entitled to delay repay for 100% of their return journey, even if some minor small print (that is clearly an oversight and unlawful) suggests that this is somehow 'correct' in your mind. It is not a "separate issue" at all.

 

[Bletchleyite]

@yorkie I just did a plan for that journey exactly as you did and it gave me an Off Peak Return at £80.whatever-it-is. Is this the quirk highlighted upthread where with a Railcard a rounding issue makes 2 singles 5p cheaper than a return and so the 2 singles are issued?

Nonetheless I maintain that the national Delay Repay criteria (this is NOT just a VT thing) clearly say return ticket not return journey.

Is this morally right? No, clearly not, it's silly. Would VT lose in Court? I'm not convinced they would, but has anyone got the time and funds to be bothered pursuing a test case?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't see how it can possibly be lawful to claim that a passenger who holds a Railcard is not entitled to delay repay for 100% of their return journey, while a passenger who does not hold a Railcard is entitled to delay repay for 100% of their return journey, even if some minor small print (that is clearly an oversight and unlawful) suggests that this is somehow 'correct' in your mind. It is not a "separate issue" at all.

The reason for the difference is that two singles is (fractionally) cheaper, it appears.

 

[yorkie]

@yorkie I just did a plan for that journey exactly as you did and it gave me an Off Peak Return at £80.whatever-it-is. Is this the quirk highlighted upthread where with a Railcard a rounding issue makes 2 singles 5p cheaper than a return and so the 2 singles are issued?

Yes.

Nonetheless I maintain that the national Delay Repay criteria (this is NOT just a VT thing) clearly say return ticket not return journey.

I refer you to my posts above.

Is this morally right? No, clearly not, it's silly. Would VT lose in Court? I'm not convinced they would, but has anyone got the time and funds to be bothered pursuing a test case?

I do not see how it can be lawful either; it's not just a moral issue.

The reason for the difference is that two singles is (fractionally) cheaper, it appears.

That's not a valid reason. That's a technical matter which is not a valid excuse to reduce someone's rights.

All you are both doing is convincing me that you are not familiar with relevant laws and just see railway ticketing rules as infallible and authoritative; this is far from the case. I refer you both to my post above. I suggest we agree to disagree as you are arguing over technical details which do not override consumer rights or contract laws.

 

[najaB]

It is not a "separate issue" at all.

It is a separate issue because the selling of two single tickets rather than a return happened before and independently from claiming Delay Repay.

The problem of selling two singles to someone who wants to make a return journey still exists even where compensation claims aren't being considered.

Edit: For example, someone who wants to break their return journey.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is a separate issue because the selling of two single tickets rather than a return happened before and independently from claiming Delay Repay.

The problem of selling two singles to someone who wants to make a return journey still exists even where compensation claims aren't being considered.

Edit: For example, someone who wants to break their return journey.

It's a bit of an awkward one. VT could quite validly argue that what people want is the cheapest option, and the Off Peak Singles are, due to that rounding quirk, 5p cheaper. There would be no case in which I personally wouldn't choose, given the option, to pay the extra 5p for the extra flexibility, and (if hypothetically these tickets were on sale in a booking office) any decent member of staff would advise to do this too (though giving the cheaper option too if appropriate). It's a bit of a "computer says no" type situation, really - the computer has been told to issue the cheapest option, so that's what it does, even if the passenger loses flexibility which to almost anyone will have a value of rather more than 5p.

It is however error, not conspiracy. They absolutely are not doing this to weasel out of the comparatively rare case of paying a 2 hour delay repay claim (of which, as I've said before, I've had two ever).

 

[DaveB10780]

It's a bit of an awkward one. VT could quite validly argue that what people want is the cheapest option, and the Off Peak Singles are, due to that rounding quirk, 5p cheaper. There would be no case in which I personally wouldn't choose, given the option, to pay the extra 5p for the extra flexibility, and (if hypothetically these tickets were on sale in a booking office) any decent member of staff would advise to do this too (though giving the cheaper option too if appropriate). It's a bit of a "computer says no" type situation, really - the computer has been told to issue the cheapest option, so that's what it does, even if the passenger loses flexibility which to almost anyone will have a value of rather more than 5p.

It is however error, not conspiracy. They absolutely are not doing this to weasel out of the comparatively rare case of paying a 2 hour delay repay claim (of which, as I've said before, I've had two ever).

It might be an unintended consequence. However I was mighty annoyed when I first noticed, since my flexibility I thought I had was taken away by sleight of hand. I always book off peak returns now I know. In my mind I had booked a normal return journey since that is what I asked for on the web site. In the previous year rounding had not kicked in and so I got a joined up ticket so assumed that is what always happened since the first screen you are shown looks identical in both cases.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It might be an unintended consequence. However I was mighty annoyed when I first noticed, since my flexibility I thought I had was taken away by sleight of hand. I always book off peak returns now I know. In my mind I had booked a normal return journey since that is what I asked for on the web site. In the previous year rounding had not kicked in and so I got a joined up ticket so assumed that is what always happened since the first screen you are shown looks identical in both cases.

It's just happened on the last fare increase. VT might not even know it has happened - have you reported it to them?

 

[DaveB10780]

It's just happened on the last fare increase. VT might not even know it has happened - have you reported it to them?

It can change each year depending where you are travelling from. When I first noticed I reported it to them and they said "that is the way it works, tough". I suggested I should be able to pick a return explicitly up front. Their advice was to buy an open return and reserve a seat on the train I wanted to return on with the call centre. I usually find this a painful experience and In any case this would take more of my time. I then found the workaround of checking fares with other operators which enables me to pick trains both ways. For me the key to it is able to change my seat reservation to my choice. The system always tries to fill trains from one end from my observations.

 

[najaB]

It is however error, not conspiracy.

Oh, it never even entered my mind that it's a conspiracy. I have no doubt accepting that they are that incompetent.

 

[DaveB10780]

Today I picked up a ticket on the TVM that involves a return booking but with Off Peak Single one way and return First Class. This was one booking, one credit card receipt. I have done this many times over the past few years and always had a single collection receipt . However, today for the first time the TVM gave me two collection receipts with the same reference. Maybe this is attempting to suggest I had not booked a return journey but 2 singles?

 

[yorkie]

Today I picked up a ticket on the TVM that involves a return booking but with Off Peak Single one way and return First Class. This was one booking, one credit card receipt. I have done this many times over the past few years and always had a single collection receipt . However, today for the first time the TVM gave me two collection receipts with the same reference. Maybe this is attempting to suggest I had not booked a return journey but 2 singles?

Maybe, but probably not. Either way, nothing changes the fact that it is two single tickets being issued for one return journey.