Delayed, missed connection, had to buy new ticket

[shopbford]

Earlier this month I had to travel to a family funeral and thought it easier to go by train so bought from Loco2 which entailed 1 change of train in Newcastle. I also bought myself a Disabled Persons Railcard in order to help reduce the monies shelled out, it is quite some time since I last travelled by train.

My first train was only a 30 minute journey into Newcastle where I would change to a Cross Country service to Guildford, Surrey. Unfortunately the train was 33 minutes late arriving in Newcastle and I missed my onward connection as it had already left. Not knowing what happened next I made my situation known at the ticket barrier and was advised to go to the Customer Service Kiosk on the concourse. Again explaining what had happened the only solution I got from them was I would have to ring the retailer from whom I had purchased my tickets for further help - not very helpful at all.

Next stop was the Ticket Office who again were not very helpful but could sell me a ticket to travel on the next Cross Country service to Reading and then on to Guildford - this was at an additional cost of £107-65. Not having much alternative and knowing I had to go I went ahead with the extra ticket, hoping on my return I could sort it all out. The only staff I had seen in Newcastle belonged to LNER.

After returning home I made contact with LNER about all of this only to be told as I hadn't bought via their website I had to go to the station to sort it out. Newcastle station is a 60 mile round trip from where I live so rather infeasible. I then found out that under the National Conditions of Carriage Para 9.4 they should have organised to have put me on the next Cross Country service which just so happened to be the one I had to pay again for.

Armed with this information I got back in contact with LNER to ask for my money back as there was also a possibility that under CRA 2015 their staff had failed to provide a reasonable standard of skill or care in their dealings with me on that day. This time the LNER Operative fully agreed with what I had to say, gave me a reference number and asked me to forward copies of my original tickets and the extra ticket I had had to pay for. Not a problem as all done a couple of days later.

2 weeks go by and email arrives asking for all the relevant details and tickets again. I responded pointing out when it was all done with dates times etc. Another 2 weeks and I get the same again - this time the red mist descends. Contact them again this time expressing my dissatisfaction and get a promise it will be dealt with and will have an email within an hour asking for my bank details so they can process the claim - surprisingly this never appeared. Instead I get a different email the following day refusing payment and telling me it was all because I had used split tickets - which I note from the National Conditions Para 14 are perfectly acceptable.

I have since tried to contact LNER but am not prepared to wait the 10 working days they say and have been recommended to contact the Rail Ombudsman instead - my own preference would be the Small Claims Court. I have copied the email received from LNER in the next post.

Thank you for listening.

 

[shopbford]

"Dear London North Eastern Customer

Thank you for contacting LNER Customer Services on 15/10/2019

Upon investigation into your provided tickets, I can see that you did not travel with us on the affected leg of your journey, so unfortunately are not entitled to any compensation of your new ticket from us at LNER. You travelled with CrossCountry trains, and as the delay caused to your journey originated with Northern, in normal circumstances you would have to go back to Northern Trains to claim for Delay repay.

However, as I can see that you travelled with split ticketing, you will not be entitled to any compensation under delay repay other than for the Hexham-Newcastle portion of your ticket, (costing £4.70) this is in line with the terms and conditions surrounding split ticketing, the information you included from the National Rail conditions of Travel does specify that it must be the operator you booked with that you could travel on the next service with which would be CrossCountry in this instance, and you must travel on a through-ticket to be able to do this.

If you had purchased a through-ticket that took you on a journey from Hexham to Guildford with connecting legs under the umbrella of one ticket for one price, you would have been able to pick up the next CrossCountry service free of charge, however as you bought individual tickets for each leg of your journey in order to save money, this is at the customers own risk when experiencing disruption.

The new ticket you were made to purchase will be non-refundable from LNER as you would have required a valid ticket to travel on our service if you did decide to board one of our trains instead of your booked operator, for your journey.

If you boarded the next available CrossCountry service with your new ticket, it would be at their discretion whether they would refund you on that or not. However we cannot comment on another train operating companies policies so you would have to raise this case with them.

If you experienced delay on your return journey from Newark Northgate - Doncaster, and your following Doncaster - Newcastle journey on your LNER services you can claim Delay Repay through our online scheme, however you would only be entitled to compensation for the total of those 2 tickets, completely dependant on the amount of any potential delay, and as you have split tickets, any missed connections would not be taken into account.

I know this will be frustrating, but this is why we do not recommend split ticketing as it is not always the best way to save money if disruption is experienced.

I apologise for any inconvenience this may cause you.


Yours sincerely,"

They have made a lot of assumptions that are irrelevant.

 

[yorkie]

There is a lot of text here; I will have a go at reading it but can you post your originally booked/planned itinerary, in an easy to read tabulated format please?

Was your first train a Northern train, if it wasn't LNER?

In any case LNER acted appallingly on the day and should NOT have charged you a penny; you'll need to contact Mike Ross to get it sorted.

 

[thejuggler]

What a truly terrible letter from LNER. If you had done this, that or the other irrelevant waffle.

They may well have added.

"If you had been more successful in life you would have access to a helicopter to use as personal transportation."!

Ask them where in the Conditions it states using split tickets changes the rules.

 

[Hadders]

LNER should be hanging their heads in shame for sending that reply to the OP.

Absolutely disgraceful.

 

[shopbford]

There is a lot of text here; I will have a go at reading it but can you post your originally booked/planned itinerary, in an easy to read tabulated format please?

Hexham dep 1240 to Newcastle arr 1313 - Northern service

Newcastle dep 1335 to Guildford arr 1857 - Cross Country

Travelled on 1 October 2019


Was your first train a Northern train, if it wasn't LNER? - see above

In any case LNER acted appallingly on the day and should NOT have charged you a penny; you'll need to contact Mike Ross to get it sorted. - who is he?

I suppose the warnings were there when they told me they couldn't understand the tickets I had on my phone.

 

[ainsworth74]

Some things, I think, have gotten better since the change to LNER. I see their attempt to deal with any ticketing issues is not one of them (I will always fondly recall the time I was told that tickets are only valid "on the most direct geographical route between stations" or words to that effect by VTEC).

My view is that you can either continue down the complaints avenue with LNER until you get your deadlock letter and can take it to the Rail Ombudsman (perhaps jumping the gun and asking that if they're not willing to issue the refund for the new ticket that they simply issue a deadlock letter). Or, if you're up for, send a letter before action to LNER's registered address (East Coast House in York I believe) asking for them to provide the money requested within a reasonable period (something like 14 days or maybe 28) or you will issue a claim against them in Small Claims Court without warning. I don't usually advocate this as I always feel its the nuclear option but considering the sum in question is over £100 and LNER are clearly not able to engage sensible at the customer service representative level...

I'm not sure which is most likely to reach a positive outcome! Certainly I suspect the Small Claims route will be quicker but not without additional costs (at least in the short term) and potentially stress depending on how you feel about court action!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

However, as I can see that you travelled with split ticketing, you will not be entitled to any compensation under delay repay other than for the Hexham-Newcastle portion of your ticket, (costing £4.70) this is in line with the terms and conditions surrounding split ticketing, the information you included from the National Rail conditions of Travel does specify that it must be the operator you booked with that you could travel on the next service with which would be CrossCountry in this instance, and you must travel on a through-ticket to be able to do this.

That actually makes me angry.

What an absolute load of rubbish.

That person needs retraining if they have misunderstood that, or they need the sack if doing it wilfully, or if the TOC is doing it...well, aren't the DaFT support to be pulling the strings?

Oh for someone willing to take them to Court and make an example of them for that garbage. Though I think you should use the Ombudsman first because it might make your legal case weaker if you don't at least try that first.

If you hold split tickets your rights are identical to if you hold a through ticket, both in terms of your rights to travel on the next available train (of the same TOC if it's an Advance or TOC specific ticket, and via the split points on trains stopping at those points where you're combining singles/returns as you were) and in terms of Delay Repay being payable on the whole journey, i.e. the combination of tickets as a whole, though they are correct that Delay Repay would be claimed (for the set of tickets as a whole) from Northern as their train was the first whose delay impacted your journey.

As to the additional ticket this was mis-sold and LNER should refund it as it has effectively not been used (because the existing tickets held were valid) and it was them that mis-sold it. Your claim is indeed against them.

This is very, very poor.

 

[gray1404]

As I think you have discovered since your journey, the National Rail Conditions of Travel allows you to use one or more tickets to complete your journey. This is also known as split ticketing and doing such does not mean you are not allowed to take alternative services in the event of disruption. You would however need to stick to any routing shown on your ticket, such as Cross Country only. In this case as your Northern service was delayed and you had valid split tickets through to your destination, you were entitled to take the next Cross Country service to your destination (or combination of their services e.g. by changing at Birmingham New Street for example). Cross Country would have to accept your ticket in these circumstances as your earlier train was delayed and you would also be entitled to claim delay repay from Northern based on your final arrival time as your destination, as the company who caused the delay.

LNER as the station operator at Newcastle have failed in their duty to give you correct information and inform you of your rights. This is regardless of which train companies you are using or tickets held. They should have informed you of your entitlement to take the next Cross Country service and it was wrong that they had you buy another ticket when this was not required. Their correspondence contains a lot of factually incorrect information and people writing such nonsense should not be working in a role that involves giving information to rail passengers. They have no basis whatsoever for refusing your request for a refund. Provided you continued your journey using the train companies or routing according to your original tickets then the new ticket is, in essence unused.

I would keep chasing this with LNER for a fee free refund and assurances from them that they will ensure that their staff do not give out incorrect information in future. The refund does need to come from LNER as they are the retailer of the ticket as it was purchased from one of their booking offices. Perhaps you could post any drafts of further emails to them on here for proof reading if this will help you. You should also submit a delay repay claim to Northern based on the value of your combination of tickets used (those you originally purchased).

At this stage of your complaint you could indeed use the services of the Rail Ombudsman. I think it is important that if you are going to do this that your complaint to them is as short and as clear as possible so that the caseworker understands from the outset the essence of your complaint. Any decision made by the Rail Ombudsman is binding on the train company but you are free not to accept their decision and still issue proceedings in the County Court if you wish (that is after you have tried using the Ombudsman first).

I am assuming that once you left Newcastle you only used Cross Country services for the remainder of your journey? On your return journey did you use your originally purchased tickets (and not anything purchased in Newcastle)?

Personally I would do the following:
keep hammering my complaint to LNER in the hope they will issue a refund and compensation for their failures, if this fails get them to issue a deadlock letter, then use the Rail Ombudsman service, this is fails you can inform the Ombudsman that you do not accept their final decision on the matter and then issue a Letter Before Action to LNER before issuing proceedings against them (which can be done online) in the Country Court (Small Claims Track).

Make a separate application for delay repay to Northern (as mentioned above).

 

[shopbford]

Thank you all for your comments, they are much appreciated.

Going the Small Claims route is something I am very comfortable with and does not phase me in the slightest - the costs aren't that bad and providing you win can get them back + Litigant in person costs @ £19 per hour for research etc. Costs if you do happen to lose are small as the other side is capped at what they can try and claim. But will do as advised and try the Ombudsman first but it is frustrating getting responses from LNER as they think replying within 2 weeks is acceptable.

i note Delay Repay is mentioned a lot but decided not to go this route.

I am assuming that once you left Newcastle you only used Cross Country services for the remainder of your journey? On your return journey did you use your originally purchased tickets (and not anything purchased in Newcastle)?

There is only 1 direct train per day to Guildford from Newcastle and all other services only go to Reading where you have to change for Guildford. Coming back - which is whole different story - was completed using my original tickets.

 

[yorkie]

When was the journey?

You can claim delay repay based on the cost of the whole journey. This is claimable from Northern.

 

[gray1404]

Why would you not want to claim delay repay This is totally separate to your complaint with LNER and you would still be entitled to that even if you hadn't have purchased the additional ticket at Newcastle. Delay repay is there to compensate you for the fact you arrived at your destination late. For a 60 minute delay you'd be looking at 100% of the value of a single ticket (or combination of) so it really can be a handsome sum.

[the above figure is used as an example and I note you haven't said what the total delay to your journey was.]

 

[Bletchleyite]

Note: Claim Delay Repay using your original tickets, not the new one you have been missold as this is de-facto unused (even if it might have a stamp on it) because your existing tickets were valid.

 

[Buduk]

Speaking from my general understanding of it is that LNER are right in what they have done, yes you can split tickets but you are not taking into account the ticket from Newcastle to Guildford was an advance ticket, which carry it's own set of restrictions.

One of the conditions of use states if you miss the train of which you are BOOKED for ANY reason, a new ticket must be purchased.

As the Newcastle to Guildford was the first booked train as it was not a through ticket after being split then a new ticket would need to be purchased.

 

[gray1404]

Speaking from my general understanding of it is that LNER are right in what they have done, yes you can split tickets but you are not taking into account the ticket from Newcastle to Guildford was an advance ticket, which carry it's own set of restrictions.

One of the conditions of use states if you miss the train of which you are BOOKED for ANY reason, a new ticket must be purchased.

As the Newcastle to Guildford was the first booked train as it was not a through ticket after being split then a new ticket would need to be purchased.

Total load of rubbish and you really should not be posting incorrect information on this forum!

LNER are totally incorrect in what they have said. If a customer is delayed due to a train delay or cancellation whilst using a combination of tickets (regardless of if it is a "booked" train or not) then the customer is entitled to use the next available services (subject to any operator or route restrictions shown on the original tickets) without additional charge and claim delay repay based on the value of the combination of the tickets.

What you appear to be confusing is if a customer misses their first train (regardless of if this is booked or reserved or not) and as a result misses a train they are booked on using an Advance ticket. Such examples would be if the customer oversleeps or is delayed enroute to the station in bad traffic. However, this DOES NOT apply here as the OP missed their connection due to the delay of another train service.

 

[shopbford]

For the Delay Repay in the use you describe then I would have been late by some 70 minutes in total but may be too late to claim it now as LNER have dragged their heels in making responses.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Speaking from my general understanding of it is that LNER are right in what they have done, yes you can split tickets but you are not taking into account the ticket from Newcastle to Guildford was an advance ticket, which carry it's own set of restrictions.

One of the conditions of use states if you miss the train of which you are BOOKED for ANY reason, a new ticket must be purchased.

As the Newcastle to Guildford was the first booked train as it was not a through ticket after being split then a new ticket would need to be purchased.

Incorrect. If a connection is missed because of a delayed train (or railway contracted bus service), a new ticket does NOT need to be purchased. Virgin Trains West Coast incorrectly state "any reason" in their publicity (so LNER may do the same, and it seems the NRE site does as well) but that doesn't make it correct.

If for any other reason (not involving a delay on the railway) you miss the train you're on your own, of course.

This term:
"If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey."
is the one applicable.

 

[gray1404]

For the Delay Repay in the use you describe then I would have been late by some 70 minutes in total but may be too late to claim it now as LNER have dragged their heels in making responses.

What was your date of travel? Delay repay claims are expected to be made within 28 days of travel.

However, that doesn't mean Northern will not pay you can still ask them. There is a principal in the railway industry that if a customer contacts one train company and their complaint (or an aspect of it) relates to that of another train company, then the first train company is to forward the correspondence onto the second and inform the customer. There is an argument that LNER should have understood your complaint correct and processed your refund and forwarded the delay repay element of your claim to Northern to reply to you directly.

I hope that makes sense. I think you should submit a claim to Northern, keep it simple so they understand it, and state that LNER delayed their reply to you and failed to forward your complaint about the delay onto them.

 

[yorkie]

Good news: to his credit David Horne has offered to look into the matter:
https://twitter.com/DavidHorne/status/1190016572473139203

@RailUKForums
If the customer wishes to send details to me, I will happily arrange for this to be followed up. http://scr.im/dhlner

I would definitely take up this offer.

Although the North East based customer support centre offers poor advice and has staff who lack even basic training regarding the validity of tickets, the York HQ do know their stuff and can overturn incorrect decisions.

Speaking from my general understanding of it

With all due respect, I'll stop you there; This forum has experts who have a complete understanding of it. Not a general (mis)understanding of it.

is that LNER are right in what they have done, yes you can split tickets but you are not taking into account the ticket from Newcastle to Guildford was an advance ticket, which carry it's own set of restrictions.

Sorry to be blunt but this is nonsense; it's all one contract. I refer you to the National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) and the Advance Fares FAQ in the iKB, a copy of which is available in our fares guide; a direct link to the PDF is here:

One of the conditions of use states if you miss the train of which you are BOOKED for ANY reason, a new ticket must be purchased.

As the Newcastle to Guildford was the first booked train as it was not a through ticket after being split then a new ticket would need to be purchased.

This is not the correct interpretation.

 

[WesternLancer]

Shocking that LNER can have staff at several levels with such a poor grasp of the terms of the product they sell or are responsible for providing with other train operators.

They should be refunding mis sold tickets, and Northern Paying delay repay as I understand it - even if it is out of time I'd start a separate debate with Northern on that in that you have good reason for being out f time, specifically that you had been wasting time trying to engage with LNER who were mishandling your compliant.

In fact you could probably ask the Ombudsman to rule on both claims - that with LNER and that with Northern.

 

[yorkie]

Problem is the Ombudsman are not exactly that helpful; they refused to meet me to discuss the abysmal way passengers are mistreated.

The Ombudsman will demand you go back to LNER to request a "deadlock letter", they may then question you in a way that is trying to catch you out. The staff at the Ombudsman do not seem to be particularly knowledgeable either. Their claim to offer "expert" advice looks increasingly inaccurate by the day.

In short they don't really want to know. It's just a sham really. Their mission is to just get rid of cases and not address any of the underlying issues. I'm now just as disillusioned with the Ombudsman as I am with Transport Focus!

I've had more success dealing with train companies directly; you just need to be assertive with them and speak to the right people.

I am sure, as the retailer, Loco2 would help, but it won't be necessary to enlist any other organisation as I am confident it can be resolved with LNER directly.

You could report a consumer law breach to the ORR but the chances are they will shirk on their obligations and will send you to the DfT, who in turn would send you back to the ORR.

In short: there is no organisation that can do anything about situations like this. None. The only independent 'watchdog'-type organisation I trust is London Travelwatch but this is well outside their patch (and they are under-resourced). The others don't seem to care!

 

[Hadders]

The worrying thing with this is that the reply sent by LNER to the OP is highly unlikely to be a reply written specifically for this complaint. It'll likely be one of a suite of replies that are selected and sent out depending on the circumstances of a complaint. That really is an issue as lots of other people will have received a similar reply.

 

[yorkie]

The worrying thing with this is that the reply sent by LNER to the OP is highly unlikely to be a reply written specifically for this complaint. It'll likely be one of a suite of replies that are selected and sent out depending on the circumstances of a complaint. That really is an issue as lots of other people will have received a similar reply.

Absolutely and I know for a fact many people have.

 

[shopbford]

What was your date of travel? Delay repay claims are expected to be made within 28 days of travel.

However, that doesn't mean Northern will not pay you can still ask them. There is a principal in the railway industry that if a customer contacts one train company and their complaint (or an aspect of it) relates to that of another train company, then the first train company is to forward the correspondence onto the second and inform the customer. There is an argument that LNER should have understood your complaint correct and processed your refund and forwarded the delay repay element of your claim to Northern to reply to you directly.

I hope that makes sense. I think you should submit a claim to Northern, keep it simple so they understand it, and state that LNER delayed their reply to you and failed to forward your complaint about the delay onto them.

Outward travel was on 1 October 2019.

 

[shopbford]

Good news: to his credit David Horne has offered to look into the matter:
https://twitter.com/DavidHorne/status/1190016572473139203

I would definitely take up this offer.

Thank you, I will do this but have a few things to do first.

 

[gray1404]

Outward travel was on 1 October 2019.

Then I would get a delay repay form into Northern ASAP. If their online form won't let you select that date then send your delay repay claim to them by email.

 

[221129]

Then I would get a delay repay form into Northern ASAP. If their online form won't let you select that date then send your delay repay claim to them by email.

It'll be out of time by now.

 

[alistairlees]

It'll be out of time by now.

As the customer has been given the run around here, I don't think there is any argument that it has run out of time to reclaim Delay Repay. The customer's losses need to be put right, including Delay Repay and refunding the ticket which it was unnecessary to purchase. Some compensation really out to be provided too. Loco2, as the retailer of the original tickets, should be helping the customer too.

 

[shopbford]

Update so far

I have submitted a Delay Repay request to Northern via email as there website will not accept the dates I input - will see what happens

From Post 19 - thanks to Yorkie
Good news: to his credit David Horne has offered to look into the matter:
https://twitter.com/DavidHorne/status/1190016572473139203
@RailUKForums
If the customer wishes to send details to me, I will happily arrange for this to be followed up. http://scr.im/dhlner

I would definitely take up this offer.

I have within the last few minutes sent him an email, Loco2 have been supportive when asked to make comment on what has happened.

 

[sheff1]

Speaking from my general understanding of it is that LNER are right in what they have done, yes you can split tickets but you are not taking into account the ticket from Newcastle to Guildford was an advance ticket, which carry it's own set of restrictions.

One of the conditions of use states if you miss the train of which you are BOOKED for ANY reason, a new ticket must be purchased.

As the Newcastle to Guildford was the first booked train as it was not a through ticket after being split then a new ticket would need to be purchased.

Why have you joined this forum just to post such nonsense ? Are you part of the LNER Customer Services team by any chance ?

The true position has been clearly stated by posters who do know what they are talking about.