Delayed on previous train and falsely accused of fair dodging - Northern

[jasonwills]

I was travelling on Saturday afternoon with split tickets, two advance singles: one for the train I was on, and one for the connecting train from an intermediate station. These were electronic tickets loaded onto my phone.

My train into the intermediate station was held en route for about 45 minutes and ended up about that late into York. That meant I missed the connecting Northern service - I was watching Realtime Trains and it set off a few minutes before the train I was on arrived.

I checked with staff at the station who told me to get the next train in a little over an hour. I mentioned that I had advance tickets and they said it was fine, because I'd been delayed on a connecting service I just needed to get the next train. They told me about the Conditions of Travel and where they were on the national rail website.
This was a Northern train heading towards Blackpool but I was getting off part way.

On that northern train the guard scanned my ticket, then walked off to another passenger and darted back to me. I thought he wanted to check my railcard so I started getting it out of my pocket.
The guard instead accused me of fare dodging and said I was "on the wrong train, the ticket is for the wrong company and at the wrong time" and that I "was obviously trying to dodge paying a full fare to Blackpool".
I tried to tell him about the previous delay but he wasn't interested in listening, scanned my ticket a few more times and I think may have taken a photo of it too?

I tried to offer to show him the previous ticket on my phone or open up the National Rail website about the earlier disruption, but he kept interrupting me.

Eventually he said "You'll be seeing us in court" and walked off. I said "Excuse me?" - he said "You'd better get off at the next stop, I'll call the police if you don't." - thankfully this was my stop.

I got off the train and tried to contact Northern customer services, but the guy I spoke to couldn't have been less interested.
I asked what had happened, if they'd scanned my ticket to get my address - and he told me I had to call a company called Penalty Solutions and gave me the website - but it won't tell me anything without a penalty notice number, and there's no phone number to call.

Is there any way to find out if they're going to prosecute me for this or how to appeal it?

It just seems like Northern want to delay and obstruct this and don't want to give me an answer.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I was travelling on Saturday afternoon with split tickets, two advance singles: one for the train I was on, and one for the connecting train from an intermediate station. These were electronic tickets loaded onto my phone.

My train into the intermediate station was held en route for about 45 minutes and ended up about that late into York. That meant I missed the connecting Northern service - I was watching Realtime Trains and it set off a few minutes before the train I was on arrived.

I checked with staff at the station who told me to get the next train in a little over an hour. I mentioned that I had advance tickets and they said it was fine, because I'd been delayed on a connecting service I just needed to get the next train. They told me about the Conditions of Travel and where they were on the national rail website.
This was a Northern train heading towards Blackpool but I was getting off part way.

On that northern train the guard scanned my ticket, then walked off to another passenger and darted back to me. I thought he wanted to check my railcard so I started getting it out of my pocket.
The guard instead accused me of fare dodging and said I was "on the wrong train, the ticket is for the wrong company and at the wrong time" and that I "was obviously trying to dodge paying a full fare to Blackpool".
I tried to tell him about the previous delay but he wasn't interested in listening, scanned my ticket a few more times and I think may have taken a photo of it too?

I tried to offer to show him the previous ticket on my phone or open up the National Rail website about the earlier disruption, but he kept interrupting me.

Eventually he said "You'll be seeing us in court" and walked off. I said "Excuse me?" - he said "You'd better get off at the next stop, I'll call the police if you don't." - thankfully this was my stop.

I got off the train and tried to contact Northern customer services, but the guy I spoke to couldn't have been less interested.
I asked what had happened, if they'd scanned my ticket to get my address - and he told me I had to call a company called Penalty Solutions and gave me the website - but it won't tell me anything without a penalty notice number, and there's no phone number to call.

Is there any way to find out if they're going to prosecute me for this or how to appeal it?

It just seems like Northern want to delay and obstruct this and don't want to give me an answer.

If you're delayed on part of your journey, such that you miss a connection [and whether it's a through ticket or separate ones for each leg is irrelevant], you certainly are entitled to use your ticket (even though it's an "Advance" and hence tied to a specific train) on the next train of the same train company. And if your delay would be over an hour, the train company concerned is supposed to ensure you can travel on any company's train if that would speed you up. (Someone better informed will no doubt tell you more; but I think the company you should use will reroute you, or they'd reimburse any new ticket you got if you had to do that.) But in your case, it sounds like your Advance for the second leg of your journey was for a Northern service and you got on a subsequent Northern service; so there should be no need to do anything special ... your right is a completely automatic one (as you were told at the station). The only problem might be if the trains you were supposed to use weren't scheduled so as to allow you sufficient connection time in York. But it sounds from what you say that you'd have had plenty of connection time if your first train was on time.

The ticket person on the later train should be able to check that your first train was delayed, causing you to miss your connection, and so they have to accept your ticket on the later train and that's that.

It sounds to me as though the person who told you your ticket wasn't valid was talking nonsense.

Others here might tell you more about what to do next; but I guess you might never hear from Northern - if you do, then pointing out to them that your ticket was valid, by virtue of an incoming connection being late, causing you to miss the train your ticket was for, ought to be enough to get them to back off. You have a complete defence to any accusation they make.

However, you seem to want to pre-empt this be contacting them first. But this is difficult, because if a report was made by the ticket person, on the basis of the information they scanned on the ticket - electronic tickets are of course completely traceable - any correspondence you send them about it won't marry up with what they're doing until they've initiated whatever action and given your case a reference number. So it's generally recommended that people should wait to be contacted first. Though maybe the people processing the sending out of threats of prosecution know the rules better than your ticket person on the train, and so wouldn't start any process against you once they see the basis of any report the train person has made; maybe.

Given how you've been treated, you might in any case want to try to lodge a complaint, the outcome of which [assuming there was a quick outcome... quite an assumption] would have you set up ready to refute any ticket irregularity accusation if one did still come your way.

Lastly, remember "Delay Repay" - which isn't actually repayment, but compensation for being late - kicks in based on the arrival time at your final destination, compared to what it should have been if the trains were on time. (And again, having separate tickets for different legs of the journey doesn't matter at all.) In this case, you don't contact Northern, but whichever train company was running the train which got you into York late, kicking off the problems. They're responsible for paying a proportion of your total ticket cost for the whole journey, end to end, based on how much you were delayed. (Over an hour by the sound of it.)

 

[SuspectUsual]

It would be really helpful if you could give us a bit more detail, especially where your journey was to, and the booked and actual trains from York that you got. Were they both operated by Northern?

 

[jasonwills]

It would be really helpful if you could give us a bit more detail, especially where your journey was to, and the booked and actual trains from York that you got. Were they both operated by Northern?

No, the first train was operated by LNER. Edinburgh to Garforth was the complete journey, with a change at York. Setting off on the 1400 LNER service, changing at York at 1708. The LNER train was held about half way because of the Thirsk signalling problems. I can only guess they held it there so as not to block the lines around York with trains which couldn't go anywhere.

I contacted Northern a few times once on the phone (couldn't get through) and once on Twitter.
They replied but a bunch of fake accounts started messaging me asking for phone numbers, addresses... Northern themselves weren't much better.
I asked for some other means of contact - and they gave me a link to a weird website called "site.com" which looked like a copy of the Northern website, and refused to tell me who they were. (they usually 'sign off' their tweets with a symbol and two or three letters, I guess it's some kind of employee ID, but the last tweets I got from them didn't have that)

As far as what happened on the train goes, I tried to explain to the ticket inspector on the Northern train that I was delayed and give him the details, but he wasn't listening and wasn't interested at all. It seemed like he'd made up his mind and nothing I could say was going to change his mind. I guess he was short on his targets or thought that as a disabled passenger I would be an easy target.

I have emailed them and asked for an apology - but I've contacted Northern with other issues in the past and looking back at old emails I don't think they've ever responded.
But the last email would have been when they were being run by - not Arriva, the company before that.

I've already contacted LNER about the delay repay - they confirmed it within a few minutes and by the time I'd gone to bed they'd agreed to refund both tickets in full. It's taken some of the sting off the experience and the LNER part of the journey was actually really good.

 

[30907]

Out of curiosity, what was the ticket that the staff member objected to? Both regular York to Garforth services are NT, so I don't get the reference tovthe wrong company.

 

[jfollows]

The terms and conditions for advance tickets (https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/tick...tickets/advance-tickets-terms-and-conditions/) state:

4.3 Tickets may only be used on the services of the Train Company (or geographic route where applicable) shown next to ‘Route’ on the ticket.
5.2 If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey.

If you held an advance ticket with Northern for your York-Garforth leg and you used a later Northern service because of your LNER delay, then you are absolutely in the right.
You are unclear, though, about what ticket you held for what service, and what service you ended up using.

 

[Snow1964]

If you had split tickets, was the split at York, or elsewhere, or even multiple splits.

Did you buy them as one transaction, might have had same booking reference (in which case it is very easy to link the tickets, and probably harder for Northern to suggest not a through journey.

If you bought them at separate times, then clearly you will need to demonstrate they form part of a through journey.

In meantime save and keep your bookings and tickets, you might need them later, and not keeping them might cause problems if you need evidence.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The 1400 Southbound LNER departure from Edinburgh Waverley last Saturday was indeed 39 minutes down arriving into York, and didn't get in there until 1708, so anyone travelling on this with a valid itinerary for onward travel on the 1708 Northern service to Garforth, which departed on the time, would have missed the connection.

Realtime Trains | 1400 Edinburgh to London Kings Cross | 29/06/2024

Real-time train running information for 1400 departure from Edinburgh to London Kings Cross on 29/06/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 1708 York to Leeds | 29/06/2024

Real-time train running information for 1708 departure from York to Leeds on 29/06/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

If the OP had a valid (through) Advance ticket from Edinburgh Waverley to Garforth (rather than two or more separate advances) likely it would require a change of trains at York and be routed "LNER & Connections".

However, the OP says that they had separate advance tickets.

 

[wilsontown]

Some TPE services also call at Garforth but I'm not sure if that's at all relevant here. The 1708 would be the Northern stopper to Leeds, as above.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Some TPE services also call at Garforth but I'm not sure if that's at all relevant here. The 1708 would be the Northern stopper to Leeds, as above.

Yes, but it reads as if that's the train the OP missed, so he'd have been on the next one - who operated that? Presumably still Northern as he mentioned it was headed to Blackpool

 

[wilsontown]

Yes, but it reads as if that's the train the OP missed, so he'd have been on the next one - who operated that? Presumably still Northern as he mentioned it was headed to Blackpool

Yep, it would the 1723 (ish, they do vary a bit hour to hour) Northern service to Blackpool North.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Why did the guard say you were on the wrong train company?

 

[Hadders]

Can you set out in tabular form the trains you intended to catch, and the trains you actually caught for your entire journey.

Cna you also tell us exactly what tickets you purchased.

 

[Sheffcaster202]

To echo Hadders post above, if you still have these tickets then perhaps posting them on here would also assist others in looking at every angle of this case.

I’d strongly recommend pushing your complaint, regardless of any irregularity (or not), 0800 200 6060 is the line for Northern, there is an option to make a complaint and be put through to the relevant department.
Regardless of any ticketing issue (or there not actually being one here) the treatment, being asked to leave the train and threat of police, over what essentially sounds like nothing, is totally uncalled for.

Generally, when dealing with someone on an incorrect service, there is enough evidence through common sense, local knowledge and the demeanour of your passenger, that a delay has been incurred and it’s not deliberate, in all honesty I rarely check with longer journeys and connections but can guarantee if I did 99.9% of the time the passenger is in the right.
If you really want to check there are adequate resources on the ticket machine and mobile phone to check this!

With being asked to leave…even when I have a blatant case of fare evasion, fraud or other kind of irregularity I very rarely ask the person to leave, keep it calm, deal with it professionally. If there is a case to answer then that will be taken care of, there’s little point leaving someone at a random station, risking a slap or worse and passing the conflict on to a colleague.

I’m sorry to hear you’ve experienced this and hope you get it resolved!

EDIT - complaint can also be made in writing via various methods, email/letter etc
[email protected] or FREEPOST Northern Railway

 

[Haywain]

I’d strongly recommend pushing your complaint, regardless of any irregularity (or not), 0800 200 6060 is the line for Northern, there is an option to make a complaint and be put through to the relevant department.

I would strongly recommend putting any complaint in writing, rather than submitting it verbally, and try and make it clearer than has been posted here.

 

[MotCO]

You may wish to download and save the data from RealTime Trains in post #6 - the data may not be saved in the future when/if the rail company write to you asking for your side of the story, and it would be useful evidence for you.

 

[AlbertBeale]

It would be really helpful if you could give us a bit more detail, especially where your journey was to, and the booked and actual trains from York that you got. Were they both operated by Northern?

No, the first train was operated by LNER. Edinburgh to Garforth was the complete journey, with a change at York. Setting off on the 1400 LNER service, changing at York at 1708. The LNER train was held about half way because of the Thirsk signalling problems. I can only guess they held it there so as not to block the lines around York with trains which couldn't go anywhere.

I contacted Northern a few times once on the phone (couldn't get through) and once on Twitter.
They replied but a bunch of fake accounts started messaging me asking for phone numbers, addresses... Northern themselves weren't much better.
I asked for some other means of contact - and they gave me a link to a weird website called "site.com" which looked like a copy of the Northern website, and refused to tell me who they were. (they usually 'sign off' their tweets with a symbol and two or three letters, I guess it's some kind of employee ID, but the last tweets I got from them didn't have that)

As far as what happened on the train goes, I tried to explain to the ticket inspector on the Northern train that I was delayed and give him the details, but he wasn't listening and wasn't interested at all. It seemed like he'd made up his mind and nothing I could say was going to change his mind. I guess he was short on his targets or thought that as a disabled passenger I would be an easy target.

I have emailed them and asked for an apology - but I've contacted Northern with other issues in the past and looking back at old emails I don't think they've ever responded.
But the last email would have been when they were being run by - not Arriva, the company before that.

I've already contacted LNER about the delay repay - they confirmed it within a few minutes and by the time I'd gone to bed they'd agreed to refund both tickets in full. It's taken some of the sting off the experience and the LNER part of the journey was actually really good.

I think you're misunderstanding the question. You were being asked whether the train you were booked on from York, and the replacement you got from York (because your delayed LNER train to York caused you to miss the booked connection), were both Northern? If so then your situation was unambiguously OK and you shouldn't have been challenged like that. If they were different companies, then although you were still able to use your ticket on a later train, there might be some steps to take to ensure that there are no problems. (However, since you checked with the staff at York, and since - I understand - the missed connection meant you'd be at your destination over an hour late, then these two factors should be enough to have put you in the clear even if the trains were from different companies.)

However, as has been pointed out, you haven't explained the narrative very clearly. Please just list the planned train times/details, and the actual ones, and show the tickets you had. Then people here can give competely definitive advice. (Not that you should have been treated the way you were, anyway, of course!)

 

[Watershed]

You may wish to download and save the data from RealTime Trains in post #6 - the data may not be saved in the future when/if the rail company write to you asking for your side of the story, and it would be useful evidence for you.

There are alternative sources of evidence of historical train running, such as Timetable History, Recent Train Times and Charlwood House Rail. They all allow you to look back much further than the week that RTT does (at least, in an easy-to-access manner).

 

[185]

Why did the guard say you were on the wrong train company?

My guess is because they've probably seen LNER & Connections, not realising Connections is indeed Northern.

A couple of TPE trains on a weekday afternoon go between Garforth & York - not the other way around, so in the York-Garforth direction, it's all Northern.

 

[Haywain]

My guess is because they've probably seen LNER & Connections, not realising Connections is indeed Northern.

The OP stated they had two Advance tickets, split at the "connecting station". The Edinburgh to York ticket would be 'LNER Only'.

 

[johnny_t]

Apropos nothing, but the only time I have complained to a railway company was to Northern. It was on a train from Doncaster to Scunthorpe and a 20-year-old-ish girl was having difficulty loading up her barcode on her phone. The way that the guard talked to her was so terrible and acccuse-y from the very start that I felt obliged to write in a letter of complaint.

 

[Watershed]

The OP stated they had two Advance tickets, split at the "connecting station". The Edinburgh to York ticket would be 'LNER Only'.

The Edinburgh to York Advance would only be routed "LNER only" if it were a promotional sale fare or Family ticket. Normal LNER Advances would be routed "LNER & Connections", even if the itinerary only contains LNER trains. However, this is all rather a moot point as I'm presuming the OP had split at York.

 

[jasonwills]

I think you're misunderstanding the question. You were being asked whether the train you were booked on from York, and the replacement you got from York (because your delayed LNER train to York caused you to miss the booked connection), were both Northern? If so then your situation was unambiguously OK and you shouldn't have been challenged like that. If they were different companies, then although you were still able to use your ticket on a later train, there might be some steps to take to ensure that there are no problems. (However, since you checked with the staff at York, and since - I understand - the missed connection meant you'd be at your destination over an hour late, then these two factors should be enough to have put you in the clear even if the trains were from different companies.)

However, as has been pointed out, you haven't explained the narrative very clearly. Please just list the planned train times/details, and the actual ones, and show the tickets you had. Then people here can give competely definitive advice. (Not that you should have been treated the way you were, anyway, of course!)

Tickets from the pdf

29 Jun 2024 EDB-YRK
Edinburgh York
EDB YRK
Ticket type Advance Single
Route Lner & Connectns
Adult Depart 14:00
Mandatory Reservations 29 Jun 2024
Edinburgh 14:00
LNER
16:31
York

29 Jun 2024 YRK-GRF
York Garforth
YRK GRF
Ticket type Advance Single
Route Ap Northern only
Adult Depart 17:08
York 17:08
Northern No specific seat
17:28
Garforth


And the trains I got were the Edinburgh to York as planned and the 1822 to Blackpool North on Northern

I can't think why the guard thought I was on the wrong train company because I showed him the Northern ticket and he scanned that. He said wrong train to start with, then just kept adding more things on.

I sent in an email complaint to northern but they have yet to reply. I also sent them twitter dm's but they insisted I must be in the wrong then stopped replying and I think they might have blocked me?

 

[SuspectUsual]

1822 to Blackpool North on Northern

Are you certain of this? There was a 1723 to Blackpool (they're roughly hourly but vary by the odd minute here and there) and you'd have been there with 15 minutes to spare. If you didn't get the 1723, (a) to the OP - why not? and (b) to the experts, is this significant?

 

[jasonwills]

Are you certain of this? There was a 1723 to Blackpool (they're roughly hourly but vary by the odd minute here and there) and you'd have been there with 15 minutes to spare. If you didn't get the 1723, (a) to the OP - why not? and (b) to the experts, is this significant?

Okay I wasn't getting off at Garforth, it was another station on that line. I changed the details here so northern wouldn't be able to match this thread to my complaint, I was worried of causing trouble with them.

The 1723 was the next train that stopped at that station.

 

[MotCO]

Okay I wasn't getting off at Garforth, it was another station on that line. I changed the details here so northern wouldn't be able to match this thread to my complaint, I was worried of causing trouble with them.

If your forum name is your real name, they will be able to match the case up quite easily

 

[Wolfie]

Are you certain of this? There was a 1723 to Blackpool (they're roughly hourly but vary by the odd minute here and there) and you'd have been there with 15 minutes to spare. If you didn't get the 1723, (a) to the OP - why not? and (b) to the experts, is this significant?

There was also a 1808 service.

A missed connection permits use of an Advance Ticket on the next service (subject to any TOC restrictions). I can see why a guard might question a ticket being used three trains after the booked service.

Okay I wasn't getting off at Garforth, it was another station on that line. I changed the details here so northern wouldn't be able to match this thread to my complaint, I was worried of causing trouble with them.

The 1723 was the next train that stopped at that station.

But you said that you got the 1823 - the apparent level of ambiguity and lack of clarity will make it difficult for people to assist you - was that possibly a typo?

 

[AlterEgo]

I also sent them twitter dm's but they insisted I must be in the wrong then stopped replying and I think they might have blocked me?

Why did they say you were in the wrong? On what grounds? That you travelled not on the next available train, but actually the third one available to you?

Okay I wasn't getting off at Garforth, it was another station on that line.

Yeah okay I don't believe that as you copied all the ticket details and you don't seem the type to know off hand the station code for Garforth. Also the only intermediate station between York and Leeds which the 1708, 1723, and 1822 all share is Garforth.

I changed the details here so northern wouldn't be able to match this thread to my complaint, I was worried of causing trouble with them.

They already know who you are anyway if you have complained to them, and your public info here means we can all look at your LinkedIn profile, unless there are two Jason Wills from Baildon. What's going on?

The 1723 was the next train that stopped at that station.

So why were you on the 1822? Look if you went to the York Tap to have a pint for an hour to suck up a bad day nobody is going to slate you on here.

If you want help relating to your situation you have to tell us what it is and then you can get advice relating to your actual circumstances. If you are vague or unclear you will get vague and unclear advice.

 

[jasonwills]

Why did they say you were in the wrong? On what grounds? That you travelled not on the next available train, but actually the third one available to you?

They said the guard wouldn't have done that unless I really was fare dodging.

It wasn't the third, it was the next train, see ticket screenshots above.

Yeah okay I don't believe that as you copied all the ticket details and you don't seem the type to know off hand the station code for Garforth. Also the only intermediate station between York and Leeds which the 1708, 1723, and 1822 all share is Garforth.

I looked it up on Realtime Trains.

They already know who you are anyway if you have complained to them, and your public info here means we can all look at your LinkedIn profile, unless there are two Jason Wills from Baildon. What's going on?

That's not my name.

So why were you on the 1822? Look if you went to the York Tap to have a pint for an hour to suck up a bad day nobody is going to slate you on here.

If you want help relating to your situation you have to tell us what it is and then you can get advice relating to your actual circumstances. If you are vague or unclear you will get vague and unclear advice.

Because it was the next train which went to the station I had a ticket for.

 

[AlterEgo]

...right, so where does the 1723 come into this? You said it was the next train to stop at that station, but that isn't right either.

The 1823 was the next departure to Cross Gates once the 1708 had gone.

If you'd just told us the journey from the beginning people would be able to help you! You haven't done anything wrong.