Delays that affect subsequent advance tickets

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Stewart

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I need to get from Leeds to Birmingham in a few weeks time, but require a stop at Derby for an hour to drop something off for a friend.

If I schedule 90 minutes in Derby between Advance tickets, but then the original train is delayed by an hour, would the second ticket be valid on later services or would I be compelled to take the one specified on the Advance?

Thanks!
 
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calc7

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I concur with transportphoto.


Had my day out in Liverpool a couple of weeks ago cut almost two hours short by the Winsford derailment. It's irritating but one of those things you sometimes have to put up with.
 

button_boxer

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Note that if the trains you intend to catch have you leaving Sheffield after 9am (if it's a weekday) and you're prepared to take a Derby to Birmingham train that calls at Burton on Trent then it's possible to do Leeds to Birmingham for around £30 on walk-up tickets, so you might want to consider that before buying advances.

Alternatively if you can find a cheap advance for the Leeds to Derby leg then the walk-up fare from there to Birmingham is £14.70 off peak or £16.30 anytime. I guess you have to judge it based on how much you'd save over those fares with the advances available on the day you want to go.
 

hairyhandedfool

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I would say, based on the wording on NRES (I can't check the FRPP atm), that if you were delayed by an hour and choose to still spend 90 minutes in Derby, you would have to buy a new ticket in place of the second advance (unless your booked service is sufficiently delayed).
 

PaxVobiscum

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One of the problems about taking a different train, even when authorised to do so, is that the seat reservations no longer apply - but try telling that to some people. Some members of my family had big problems once with a group of OAPs who got on the wrong train at the right time (if you see what I mean) and couldn't accept that these were not their seats. IIRC the grannies from hell were put off at the next station having refused to move seats when requested by the T/M and then getting very abusive.
 

GadgetMan

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I would regard the above as being 2 separate journeys, therefore you would still have to be on booked train. But that's just my opinion.
 

yorkie

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I would regard the above as being 2 separate journeys, therefore you would still have to be on booked train. But that's just my opinion.
You can regard them as separate journeys, however NRCoC Condition 19 also allows you to use two or more tickets for one journey.
 

transportphoto

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You can regard them as separate journeys, however NRCoC Condition 19 also allows you to use two or more tickets for one journey.
In which case, the 90 mins could be considered as an extended connection time; either way you should take your booked train or pay for a new ticket/excess (as appropriate)

TP
 

GadgetMan

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You can regard them as separate journeys, however NRCoC Condition 19 also allows you to use two or more tickets for one journey.
True, but the 90 minutes inbetween complicates this as he would be at Derby in time to make the connection, however he would then intentionally miss his booked train to carry out his other tasks.
 

Skymonster

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This is another situation where the NRCoC and the Ts&Cs for advance tickets are a pile of doodoo that penalise customers unfairly. The OP booked travel to spend 90 minutes in Derby! and then through NO FAULT of the customer whatsoever they are penalised by not having that time - which in some circumstances could negate the entire purpose of the journey. If the traveller is late then they are penalised and have to buy a new ticket... and yet when the TOC is late and messes up a traveller's plans then there's no comeback whatsoever. IMHO if a booked train arrives late then the traveller should be able to delay their subsequent departure by an equal amount. But this is just another case of travellers having to play with dice loaded in the railway's favour!
 

hairyhandedfool

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This is another situation where the NRCoC and the Ts&Cs for advance tickets are a pile of doodoo that penalise customers unfairly. The OP booked travel to spend 90 minutes in Derby! and then through NO FAULT of the customer whatsoever they are penalised by not having that time - which in some circumstances could negate the entire purpose of the journey. If the traveller is late then they are penalised and have to buy a new ticket... and yet when the TOC is late and messes up a traveller's plans then there's no comeback whatsoever. IMHO if a booked train arrives late then the traveller should be able to delay their subsequent departure by an equal amount. But this is just another case of travellers having to play with dice loaded in the railway's favour!
You say all that as though the passenger has no idea what they are getting into, in such a situation as this I think that is highly unlikely.
 

AlterEgo

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This is another situation where the NRCoC and the Ts&Cs for advance tickets are a pile of doodoo that penalise customers unfairly. The OP booked travel to spend 90 minutes in Derby! and then through NO FAULT of the customer whatsoever they are penalised by not having that time - which in some circumstances could negate the entire purpose of the journey. If the traveller is late then they are penalised and have to buy a new ticket... and yet when the TOC is late and messes up a traveller's plans then there's no comeback whatsoever. IMHO if a booked train arrives late then the traveller should be able to delay their subsequent departure by an equal amount. But this is just another case of travellers having to play with dice loaded in the railway's favour!
So, after your utterly scathing criticism - can you suggest a rational, workable alternative?
 

Skymonster

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So, after your utterly scathing criticism - can you suggest a rational, workable alternative?
Yes, if a booked train is late then a passenger should be entitled to take a later following train, at least up to the length of the first train's delay... On arrival on a delayed service, why shouldn't a passenger be able to go to a booking office and get their onward / return travel rebooked for later (free of charge / penalty) should they want to preserve their planned time at tat station / city?

As i said, railway can run late and as a result totally mess up a traveller's plans with very little worthwhile - other than maybe a partial refund - in the way of redress as far as the customer is concerned, and yet if the customer runs late (misses their booked train)punitive penalties are applied. It is the passenger that loses either way.

In my experience even the airlines don't treat customers that badly - few months ago I had a deliberately planned four hour connection in Franfurt but my inbound flight was two hours late, leaving me only two hours in Franfurt. On arrival I told Lufthansa that I had planned a four hour connection and that the reduced connection time wasn't good enough for my purposes, and they happily rebooked me onto a later outbound flight. Why can't the railway do that?
 

hairyhandedfool

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So, after your utterly scathing criticism - can you suggest a rational, workable alternative?
Well I think it is blatantly obvious that people with cheapest least flexible tickets should be allowed to travel whenever they want with no regard for the conditions they agreed to and with no consequences for their actions. This should be applied more strictly when they are travelling on split tickets, as they are only further reducing the cost of their journey(s). I'm really surprised it's not already in force frankly, we should start a petition!:idea::roll:
 

jon0844

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If it was clear from the outset that someone wanted to have a certain time at a station before continuing on (or, perhaps, just going home) then it does seem crazy to think that a delayed service before could make the whole trip pointless.

I book an advanced ticket to X, for a meeting/lunch, then another ticket to get home.

First train arrives so late, I've got to now get the train straight home. No meeting, no lunch! A bit of a wasted journey.

Now, could we argue that people shouldn't book an advanced ticket in that case?
 

GadgetMan

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If it was clear from the outset that someone wanted to have a certain time at a station before continuing on (or, perhaps, just going home) then it does seem crazy to think that a delayed service before could make the whole trip pointless.

I book an advanced ticket to X, for a meeting/lunch, then another ticket to get home.

First train arrives so late, I've got to now get the train straight home. No meeting, no lunch! A bit of a wasted journey.

Now, could we argue that people shouldn't book an advanced ticket in that case?
Situations like the above are difficult to have rules in place for without opening them up to abuse. You could argue that there is already a method in place where an authorised person can endorse your ticket for a later train should the need arise. As a guard I am always happy to use common sense in situations like above, and most customer support controllers are also very understanding when the situation is explained to them. I regularly contact Virgin/London Midland and EMT (I work for XC) control with requests for passengers to be conveyed on a later service than the one they were booked on (in situations where the railway are not responsible and do not have to accept the ticket) and to this day NOT A SINGLE request has been turned down. For anyone wondering, the ticket would then be endorsed accordingly with mention of the operating TOC authorising travel, and the guard in most cases is emailed ahead of time by their control.

Yes the above relies on the goodwill of staff, but I have found as long as people are willing to communicate then the result is always a positive one.
 

34D

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I book an advanced ticket to X, for a meeting/lunch, then another ticket to get home.

First train arrives so late, I've got to now get the train straight home. No meeting, no lunch! A bit of a wasted journey.
This is a very, very realistic scenario. Take Leeds-birmingham, meeting in brum for 1 hour (but maybe leaving 90 minutes to be sensible), then train back BHM-LDS.
 
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