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Derailment between Hersham & Walton on Thames (04/03)

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Deepgreen

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It's not actually the end of the bulletin. It does continue.
Indeed, but as far as I know that's the extent of ther warnng about scrap rail. It also says "never leave scrap rail unattended trackside" - that may be a new instruction, but have the report's authors ever travelled around the UK's railway network and looked at the lineside (and four foot)?!
 
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Nicholas Lewis

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So potentially the scrap rail was bought down to the RRV access point at the approach to Walton on Thames on a trailer which are usually then lifted off the track by the RRV towing the trailer and perhaps a piece fell off. Interesting though that they declare scrap rail was removed 26hrs before possession end so was the worksite then lifted or was it left as an undetected hazard. Plenty for the investigation to review actions of the Engineering Supervisor, Safe Work Leader, Machine Controller and job supervisor over giving up the worksite. This could have been a lot worse if that wheelset had derailed to ten foot as there was the potential to strike the redundant up fast platform at Walton on Thames.

Safety Bulletin also refers to RAIB investigating but they've not put out a tweet confirming so presumably looking at what NR have before determining whether to investigate which i doubt as plenty of procedures govern giving back the line after engineering work so maybe only a safety digest
 

Towers

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Purely as a matter of interest, if a situation such as this one was to have been caused by one of NR’s contractors (I hasten to add I’ve no idea whether that is or is not the case here!), does NR have recourse for its costs from the contractor or their insurance, or does it not work like that?
 

Deepgreen

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So potentially the scrap rail was bought down to the RRV access point at the approach to Walton on Thames on a trailer which are usually then lifted off the track by the RRV towing the trailer and perhaps a piece fell off. Interesting though that they declare scrap rail was removed 26hrs before possession end so was the worksite then lifted or was it left as an undetected hazard. Plenty for the investigation to review actions of the Engineering Supervisor, Safe Work Leader, Machine Controller and job supervisor over giving up the worksite. This could have been a lot worse if that wheelset had derailed to ten foot as there was the potential to strike the redundant up fast platform at Walton on Thames.

Safety Bulletin also refers to RAIB investigating but they've not put out a tweet confirming so presumably looking at what NR have before determining whether to investigate which i doubt as plenty of procedures govern giving back the line after engineering work so maybe only a safety digest
Yes, there are so many ways in which this could have been a disaster - the central platform at W-o-T being one (a reminder of Potters Bar), and the junction crossings at Weybridge being another (not to mention the fairly narrow overbridge portal there too), both of which would surely have forced the bogie, and therefore coach, sideways then tipping over and bringing several others over too. Then there's the pretty high likelihood of an approaching train on the down fast, giving a closing speed of 180mph at Weybridge junction, where the derailed bogie would have hit the crossings and probably been forced to the right, turning/toppling the train into the path of a down train. Even as things were, it is amazing that only one wheelset derailed - if the second had done so, then things would also have been hugely worse, even on plain line. Whatever the outcome of the investigation for those involved, they can be very relieved that they are not facing the consequences of a probably-fatal disaster.
 

Socanxdis

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Network Rail safety standards have fallen a lot over the past 7 years. Remember the derailment caused during the waterloo upgrade works?
 

D6130

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I seem to recall a recent thread dealing with an RMT survey of Network Rail staff in which a large majority of those surveyed thought that there would be a major rail disaster within the next couple of years. This was a very close shave.
 

PG

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Safety Bulletin also refers to RAIB investigating but they've not put out a tweet confirming so presumably looking at what NR have before determining whether to investigate which i doubt as plenty of procedures govern giving back the line after engineering work so maybe only a safety digest
Not that long ago since an engineering trolley left behind after work was struck by an EMU somewhere around Shepperton or Twickenham. Away from third rail land a Class 80x hit something left behind after works in the Didcot/Reading area too. Seems like safety digests are, pardon the pun, not being properly digested!
 

Deepgreen

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I seem to recall a recent thread dealing with an RMT survey of Network Rail staff in which a large majority of those surveyed thought that there would be a major rail disaster within the next couple of years. This was a very close shave.
Absolutely so. The more I mull over the chances here, the more amazed I am at the outcome. There will be a disaster soon, and no system is perfectly safe, but these incidents have been eminently preventable owing to their very obvious nature, rather than, say, a broken component in a bogie that was not spotted and causes a high-speed derailment.

So potentially the scrap rail was bought down to the RRV access point at the approach to Walton on Thames on a trailer which are usually then lifted off the track by the RRV towing the trailer and perhaps a piece fell off. Interesting though that they declare scrap rail was removed 26hrs before possession end so was the worksite then lifted or was it left as an undetected hazard. Plenty for the investigation to review actions of the Engineering Supervisor, Safe Work Leader, Machine Controller and job supervisor over giving up the worksite. This could have been a lot worse if that wheelset had derailed to ten foot as there was the potential to strike the redundant up fast platform at Walton on Thames.

Safety Bulletin also refers to RAIB investigating but they've not put out a tweet confirming so presumably looking at what NR have before determining whether to investigate which i doubt as plenty of procedures govern giving back the line after engineering work so maybe only a safety digest
Herein also lies a significant problem. The UK's railways are so littered with scrap that noticing it when it matters most becomes harder because it just becomes embedded in the subconscious as normal.

Network Rail safety standards have fallen a lot over the past 7 years. Remember the derailment caused during the waterloo upgrade works?
Yes, and I suspect that was shrugged off as a low-speed issue unlikely to lead to injuries, which completely misses the underlying point.
 
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vikingdriver

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I seem to recall a recent thread dealing with an RMT survey of Network Rail staff in which a large majority of those surveyed thought that there would be a major rail disaster within the next couple of years. This was a very close shave.
Indeed and many forum members were very dismissive of that survey!
 

Elecman

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A very senior engineer at NR said a few years ago it’s not if we’re going to have a major accident but when. And l the drumbeat is getting quicker!!( no names no kitbag)
 

D6130

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BBC South-West news site reporting that the main line between Tiverton Junction and Exeter was blocked until 10 50 this morning after an early morning train hit a solid object - not a person - on the track. I wonder whether there had been an overnight engineering possession there as well? I think we should be told!
 

Hellzapoppin

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You can have as many safety standards as you want but it relies on people working to those standards.
 

TSG

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Network Rail safety standards have fallen a lot over the past 7 years. Remember the derailment caused during the waterloo upgrade works?

Yes, and I suspect that was shrugged off as a low-speed issue unlikely to lead to injuries, which completely misses the underlying point.
Many of the concerns expressed on here (scrap management, possession management, etc) are legitimate and I would share them. I respect that you have couched this as suspicion rather than categorical fact but I feel I should set the record straight somewhat. There have been an unfortunate run of incidents involving signal engineering work specifically (Cardiff, Waterloo, Bristol, Sheffield, Dalwhinnie, Wingfield). In all those cases it was more by luck than judgement that nothing more serious transpired. It takes time to effect change but engineering competency management, especially for signal maintenance testing, now has a more rigorous assessment regime. Since Waterloo there has also been a push to emphasise non-technical skills across the industry. There have been considerable changes to the way works are managed, whether that's maintenance, intermediate or works testing.

I'm not complacent about the possibility of an accident and I don't think my colleagues are either. There is still more to be done. However, I truly believe your suspicion is wrong. The signal engineering community did not shrug it off or miss the underlying point. The likely consequences of a false detection feed was not lost on people.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Many of the concerns expressed on here (scrap management, possession management, etc) are legitimate and I would share them. I respect that you have couched this as suspicion rather than categorical fact but I feel I should set the record straight somewhat. There have been an unfortunate run of incidents involving signal engineering work specifically (Cardiff, Waterloo, Bristol, Sheffield, Dalwhinnie, Wingfield). In all those cases it was more by luck than judgement that nothing more serious transpired. It takes time to effect change but engineering competency management, especially for signal maintenance testing, now has a more rigorous assessment regime. Since Waterloo there has also been a push to emphasise non-technical skills across the industry. There have been considerable changes to the way works are managed, whether that's maintenance, intermediate or works testing.

I'm not complacent about the possibility of an accident and I don't think my colleagues are either. There is still more to be done. However, I truly believe your suspicion is wrong. The signal engineering community did not shrug it off or miss the underlying point. The likely consequences of a false detection feed was not lost on people.
With the high standards for competency and process in works testing Waterloo shouldn't have happened but the last three above were careless application of SMTH. SMTH puts much more onus on the individuals so really should be held to much higher standards given it doesn't have all the extra layers of checking that SWTH has so its taken far too long to recognise that.

Onto Walton again luck played its part in preventing a more significant incident and of course we don't know how many more events have happened without them causing an event like this. ie the first train on the Up Slow reported a large bang but the train was not impacted.
 

TSG

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SMTH = Safety Management... what, please?
Thank you
SMTH Signal Maintenance Testing Handbook (small scale like for like renewals e.g. a failed component)
SWTH Signal Works Testing Handbook (alterations that affect control logic or are larger scale, e.g. a new interlocking)
SITH Signal Intermediate Testing Handbook (sits between the above for larger scale like for like or minor alterations e.g. conversion of signals from filament lamps to LED)
 

Nicholas Lewis

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SMTH Signal Maintenance Testing Handbook (small scale like for like renewals e.g. a failed component)
SWTH Signal Works Testing Handbook (alterations that affect control logic or are larger scale, e.g. a new interlocking)
SITH Signal Intermediate Testing Handbook (sits between the above for larger scale like for like or minor alterations e.g. conversion of signals from filament lamps to LED)
When did SITH come into being?
 

kingqueen

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SMTH Signal Maintenance Testing Handbook (small scale like for like renewals e.g. a failed component)
SWTH Signal Works Testing Handbook (alterations that affect control logic or are larger scale, e.g. a new interlocking)
SITH Signal Intermediate Testing Handbook (sits between the above for larger scale like for like or minor alterations e.g. conversion of signals from filament lamps to LED)
Thank you
 

Peter Mugridge

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Didn't we have a similar incident a few years ago involving an HST and a length of rail in Scotland?
 

stuving

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Didn't we have a similar incident a few years ago involving an HST and a length of rail in Scotland?
Yes - at Cradlehall, south of Inverness, on Sunday 25 February 2018. The train, the 09:40 for London, did not derail. That may be the last such event (involving a passenger train at speed), and the "incident report" 05/2018 (now indexed as a safety digest, not a full investigation report) lists a number of previous examples.
 

DMckduck97

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Not that long ago since an engineering trolley left behind after work was struck by an EMU somewhere around Shepperton or Twickenham. Away from third rail land a Class 80x hit something left behind after works in the Didcot/Reading area too. Seems like safety digests are, pardon the pun, not being properly digested!
Another consequence of the change in signalling areas from TC to axle counters. Whether or not its modernising the signalling system or simply making it cheaper maintain is anyone's guess.
 

Deepgreen

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Many of the concerns expressed on here (scrap management, possession management, etc) are legitimate and I would share them. I respect that you have couched this as suspicion rather than categorical fact but I feel I should set the record straight somewhat. There have been an unfortunate run of incidents involving signal engineering work specifically (Cardiff, Waterloo, Bristol, Sheffield, Dalwhinnie, Wingfield). In all those cases it was more by luck than judgement that nothing more serious transpired. It takes time to effect change but engineering competency management, especially for signal maintenance testing, now has a more rigorous assessment regime. Since Waterloo there has also been a push to emphasise non-technical skills across the industry. There have been considerable changes to the way works are managed, whether that's maintenance, intermediate or works testing.

I'm not complacent about the possibility of an accident and I don't think my colleagues are either. There is still more to be done. However, I truly believe your suspicion is wrong. The signal engineering community did not shrug it off or miss the underlying point. The likely consequences of a false detection feed was not lost on people.
Fair enough.

With the high standards for competency and process in works testing Waterloo shouldn't have happened but the last three above were careless application of SMTH. SMTH puts much more onus on the individuals so really should be held to much higher standards given it doesn't have all the extra layers of checking that SWTH has so its taken far too long to recognise that.

Onto Walton again luck played its part in preventing a more significant incident and of course we don't know how many more events have happened without them causing an event like this. ie the first train on the Up Slow reported a large bang but the train was not impacted.
If the train "reported a large bang" then I think it absolutely WAS impacted, even though not derailed.

BBC South-West news site reporting that the main line between Tiverton Junction and Exeter was blocked until 10 50 this morning after an early morning train hit a solid object - not a person - on the track. I wonder whether there had been an overnight engineering possession there as well? I think we should be told!
Yes, I saw that and did wonder. I assumed a tree and haven't heard anything further.

You can have as many safety standards as you want but it relies on people working to those standards.
Indeed so, but the checking for scrap on the line is so utterly basic that it beggars belief that this was missed, even at night. Work sites are lit, and all it would take is a rail-level eyeball check to see the rails are clear.
 
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Nicholas Lewis

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If the train "reported a large bang" then I think it absolutely WAS impacted, even though not derailed.
It didn't stop till Surbiton where driver inspected but then continued forward. I suspect it hit the safeguard which did its job for that train in deflecting it clear but unfortunately onto the Up Fast.
Indeed so, but the checking for scrap on the line is so utterly basic that it beggars belief that this was missed, even at night. Work sites are lit, and all it would take is a rail-level eyeball check to see the rails are clear.
Worksites are lit at the site of work but not necessarily at the RRAP but RRVs are pretty well equipped with lighting all round themselves. When i was in track renewals we had a track handback process which was independent of the Engineering Supervisor and managed by a nominated individual whose responsibility was to MkI eyeball the worksite and any access points for obstructions. This process was developed twenty years ago by track renewal contractors as a result of the derailment on a renewal site post renewal when it was recognised that you couldn't place all the onus on the ES on complicated jobs. As to who owned this worksite hasn't been revealed but looks like it was either renewals (contractors) or NR maintenance given the cause is scrap rail but can't rule out vandalism albeit that would have to be from unsecured scrap.
 
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