Derailment near Carlisle - 19/10/2022 - 1715 Clitheroe Castle Cement Gb to Carlisle N.Y. (6C00)

[doningtonphil]

From the images I've seen it would appear that one or more of the wheelsets have severe flats. This would indicate the wagon handbrakes were left on on the affected wagons.

Which images are they? Do any photos show the Brake Distributor on the vehicle with the flats?

No it doesn’t. Similar comments were made on the thread during the oil train derailment in Wales the other year and it turned out to be a fault with the wagon.

Yes, the fault was that the brakes were being applied by an insufficiently attached Distributor

I think that line runs very close to houses. In the south Wales RAIB report reference was made to the fact a local noticed the passing train sounding different (you must get so used to trains passingvthat you spot an anomally), which along with CCTV images, some from private addresses, helped build up a pretty good picture of the brakes being applied/wheels locking

 

[Chris M]

Well that's quick for RAIB by current day standards so suggests they have quickly identified root cause and the engineers can get on with rebuilding the damage infrastructure.

No, it just means they've identified the immediate cause and have taken all the photographs and measurements from the site they need to before the vehicles are moved. Based on previous reports, if they need photos of the after-restoration state they'll most likely just ask Network Rail to take them or can arrange a site visit at a convenient time (which may be months away) if needs be.
As noted above, the wagons they are interested in, which will be at least the first one to derail, will be moved off-site where they can do all the testing they need in a secure, safe location that doesn't disrupt the railway.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

No, it just means they've identified the immediate cause and have taken all the photographs and measurements from the site they need to before the vehicles are moved. Based on previous reports, if they need photos of the after-restoration state they'll most likely just ask Network Rail to take them or can arrange a site visit at a convenient time (which may be months away) if needs be.
As noted above, the wagons they are interested in, which will be at least the first one to derail, will be moved off-site where they can do all the testing they need in a secure, safe location that doesn't disrupt the railway.

Fair point the condition of the vehicles need to be ascertained as well to see both sides of the wheel/rail interface but that can be done off site so good that it will allow recovery to get under way quickly and hopefully restoration within a week.

 

[Anvil1984]

I forget how many Heaton units do the Cumbrian Coast these days, as that was always Newton Heath for a long time. But I didn't think it was more than 3 or 4 that stayed that side overnight, the ones which do the early Scotrails to Dumfries?

Could be out of date knowledge mind.

Since at least Mays timetable change Northern and Scotrail no longer exchange staff nor units.

The reason for the reduced service on the Newcastle - Carlisle line is probably (just speculating) a mixture of units being the Carlisle side of the blockage, the additional time of taxiing Carlisle crews to / from Wetheral at start / end of shifts, then crews only having break / toilet facilities at one end of the line (unless taxied to Carlisle which is additional time again) and finally either Single Line / Pilotman working between Corby Gates signalbox and Wetheral station (no signal to return off East off the westbound platform). This is alongside Northern not really having that many spare crews at present. It was probably chaos for whoever was resourcing the service

 

[DanNCL]

Looking at RTT, it seems one 156 (156.475) from Newcastle, and a pair of 158s from Leeds were the only units temporarily "stuck" at Carlisle at the time of the derailment.

Edit. 156.475 plus another 156 heading south on 20:00 Carlisle - Whitehaven on 20 Oct. according to RTT.

I forget how many Heaton units do the Cumbrian Coast these days, as that was always Newton Heath for a long time. But I didn't think it was more than 3 or 4 that stayed that side overnight, the ones which do the early Scotrails to Dumfries?

Could be out of date knowledge mind.

All Cumbrian Coast diagrams are now booked Heaton units; Newton Heath allocated 156s no longer have booked work north of Preston. Booked to be 9 Heaton 156s on the Cumbrian Coast, and 1 on the Morecambe branch. Assuming all diagrams were Heaton units as booked, it's 11 of Heaton's 156 allocation 'stuck' with the unit from the Tyne Valley there too.

To avoid issues on the Cumbrian Coast if this closure lasts more than a few days they’ll either have to rework the diagrams to cycle units through Newton Heath for exams, or get the likes of ROG in to move units back to the ‘correct’ side either via Lancaster or Scotland. 195s being the booked traction for the Barrow - Manchester trips won’t help matters as units can’t just be tagged on the back of those to get to Manchester for exams.

Through running to/from Dumfries ended at the May 2022 timetable change.

 

[Dunfanaghy Rd]

These are relatively modern wagons, they have TF25 bogies, which have a handbrake interlock, meaning if a HB is left on then brake pipe pressure can't be created.
Given the time of year, wheel flats are common, although severe ones should be picked up on examinations.

They may have a handbrake interlock, but none that I ever dealt with did.
Pat

 

[M60lad]

It won't be unusual for a Heaton Unit to end up at Newton Heath for an Exam as I think it was earlier this year that 156480 spent some time at Newton Heath having work done not to sure whether it worked back from Manchester in service though.

 

[2192]

Were the wagons loaded or empty? If loaded they will need to be emptied before lifting, which took time after the Sheffield derailment.

 

[Zooty]

Newton Heath allocated 156s no longer have booked work north of Preston.

Apart from the Morecambe unit on Sundays

 

[Tractor37]

Were the wagons loaded or empty? If loaded they will need to be emptied before lifting, which took time after the Sheffield derailment.

Loaded

 

[Neptune]

It won't be unusual for a Heaton Unit to end up at Newton Heath for an Exam as I think it was earlier this year that 156480 spent some time at Newton Heath having work done not to sure whether it worked back from Manchester in service though.

On the log that the 156’s will be cycled for exams at alternate locations where necessary, they will be fuelled at Barrow and the 158’s will be sent down to Yorkshire via an appropriate route with the possibility of 3rd party drivers used.

 

[Bikeman78]

I’m fairly sure if it’s desperate then they can run some units to Newton Heath for an exam.

Agreed. Heaton units aren't particularly rare around Manchester. There were booked diagrams a few years ago when Manchester to Blackpool was booked for 156s. Conversely Newton Heath units sometimes go up the Cumbrian coast.

 

[ejstubbs]

There's no need to be snooty, it's really not important to understanding the incident.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be snooty - and I note that Ken H picked up on the use of the word even quicker than I did - but when I read that "carriages" have left the track my brain can't help starting to think of passengers potentially being injured, until it realises that it's actually a case of an unfortunate choice of word. Thankfully in this instance no-one seems to have been injured.

I am more than a little surprised that NR used the term "carriages", although I note that the media report linked above by ac6000cw has now been amended to read: "Network Rail is working with multiple agencies to find out how wagons carrying cement came off the track over the River Petteril shortly after 8pm last night (Wednesday 19 October)." The wording of the BBC article has also been amended since I pasted it in to this thread, with references to "carriages" changed to "wagons".

So I don't think I'm alone in finding the error unsettling.

(I also note that, although examples have been provided of different terms being used for passenger-carrying vehicles, no-one has admitted to calling wagons "carriages" as a matter of course.)

 

[Dr_Paul]

See https://assets.publishing.service.g...a/file/1054063/R012022_220113_Llangennech.pdf , paragraph 54 and figure 16

Yes, there are some good illustrations of a false flange here. I was puzzled by the reference, but now I know what it is. The wheel tread is ground down and effectively gets another flange on the outside, so the profile is U-shaped. The havoc this caused in the South Wales incident when false-flanged wheels encountered points is also well illustrated.

 

[43055]

The planned engineering works on the east coast will no longer take place and LNER will run as normal via the ECML.

Latest Travel updates

Stay up to date with the latest LNER (formerly Virgin Trains East Coast) train information and sign up for travel alerts here.

www.lner.co.uk

LNER Services between Edinburgh and Newcastle – Saturday 22 October
Due to a freight train derailment in the Carlisle area on Wednesday 19 October, the line between Newcastle and Carlisle is closed. LNER service were planned to operate using the diversionary route via Carlisle (extending journey times by approximately 90 minutes), however, this is now not possible. Planned Engineering works between Newcastle and Edinburgh on the East Coast Mainline has been cancelled and LNER services will now run the usual East Coast Mainline route between Edinburgh and Newcastle. This will significantly reduce expected journey times between Newcastle and Edinburgh in both directions. Please note, this will not be reflected in our live journey planners due to the short notice change. LNER Customers are advised to travel on their booked train.

• Customers travelling from Edinburgh towards Newcastle will arrive approximately 90 minutes earlier than planned. Customers are advised to remain on board the train for Stations towards London Kings Cross.
• Customers travelling north towards Scotland towards Newcastle will arrive approximately 90 minutes earlier than planned.
• Customers travelling towards Aberdeen and Inverness will arrive approximately 90 minutes earlier than planned at Edinburgh and are advised to either wait 90 minutes for their booked departure towards Aberdeen and Inverness, or use ScotRail services to complete their journey.

 

[TheBigD]

Report 10/2023: Freight train derailment at Petteril Bridge Junction

RAIB has today released its report into a freight train derailment at Petteril Bridge Junction, Carlisle, 19 October 2022.

www.gov.uk

 

[43096]

The planned engineering works on the east coast will no longer take place and LNER will run as normal via the ECML.

Latest Travel updates

Stay up to date with the latest LNER (formerly Virgin Trains East Coast) train information and sign up for travel alerts here.

www.lner.co.uk

Please note, this will not be reflected in our live journey planners due to the short notice change.

Got to love the railway: they have no problem with cancelling services in the system the night before as that doesn’t count for performance stats and compensation (ie they can use it to screw the punters), but somehow can’t for this. What’s the betting it’ll be used to penalise “booked train only” customers who are on the wrong train as a result?

 

[Dave W]

On the log that the 156’s will be cycled for exams at alternate locations where necessary, they will be fuelled at Barrow and the 158’s will be sent down to Yorkshire via an appropriate route with the possibility of 3rd party drivers used.

Does this raise the prospect of a Sprinter (albeit ECS) down the WCML between Carlisle and Carnforth? That can't happen too often can it?

 

[CAF397]

Already being alleged / said by NR that this one is on them due to points problems. Possibly a spread.

Well this has aged badly.

 

[Ken H]

Report 10/2023: Freight train derailment at Petteril Bridge Junction

RAIB has today released its report into a freight train derailment at Petteril Bridge Junction, Carlisle, 19 October 2022.

www.gov.uk

nice pic of a false flange in the link. Worth clicking...

 

[DanNCL]

On the log that the 156’s will be cycled for exams at alternate locations where necessary, they will be fuelled at Barrow and the 158’s will be sent down to Yorkshire via an appropriate route with the possibility of 3rd party drivers used.

Agreed. Heaton units aren't particularly rare around Manchester. There were booked diagrams a few years ago when Manchester to Blackpool was booked for 156s. Conversely Newton Heath units sometimes go up the Cumbrian coast.

Under the (weekday) May 2022 diagrams Heaton units shouldn’t work any further south than Preston. Previously the Barrow - Manchester service was a way to cycle them through Newton Heath if needed, but not now that’s booked 195s. Diagrams will have had to be reworked to accommodate it. I was about to say I was surprised they’d made the effort, then remembered this isn’t TPE

It isn’t completely unheard of for Newton Heath units to end up in the North East but it isn’t common either.

The 158s are largely cycled via the normal diagrams through Yorkshire anyway so I can’t see that being an issue, it’s just any unit(s) that were at Carlisle station that’ll need other plans, I struggle to see how with Petteril Bridge closed a 158 could be moved from Carlisle without a 3rd party driver, but that’s assuming there were any 158s in Carlisle in the first place!

The planned engineering works on the east coast will no longer take place and LNER will run as normal via the ECML.

Latest Travel updates

Stay up to date with the latest LNER (formerly Virgin Trains East Coast) train information and sign up for travel alerts here.

www.lner.co.uk

I wonder if XC will also alter their plans for this weekend as a result or if they’ll continue with their planned RRBs.

 

[ainsworth74]

It isn’t completely unheard of for Newton Heath units to end up in the North East but it isn’t common either.

I remember back in the days of 142s that every so often a Merseyrail interior Pacer would end up doing circuits around the North East for a week or so. Always a grim time. Thankfully the worst that Newton Heath can send us now is 156s

 

[Neptune]

but that’s assuming there were any 158s in Carlisle in the first place!

It’s been mentioned up thread that there were 2 x 158’s stranded. They’ll have been the pair to form 2H81.

 

[GC class B1]

Yes, there are some good illustrations of a false flange here. I was puzzled by the reference, but now I know what it is. The wheel tread is ground down and effectively gets another flange on the outside, so the profile is U-shaped. The havoc this caused in the South Wales incident when false-flanged wheels encountered points is also well illustrated.

The RAIB report into the Derailment of the tanker train and subsequent fire at Llangennech didn’t conclusively determine the cause of the brake drag that locked the one wheelset and resulted in the massive wheel flats and false flange. See https://assets.publishing.service.g...a/file/1054063/R012022_220113_Llangennech.pdf ,clause 68.
The brake relay mounting fault was probably the cause of excessive brake block wear and dragging brakes on the wagon, but was not conclusively confirmed by RAIB to have caused the affected wheelset to lock. A significantly greater brake force will be required to lock a wheelset than the (much smaller) force that will cause a dragging brake.

 

[Purple Train]

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be snooty - and I note that Ken H picked up on the use of the word even quicker than I did - but when I read that "carriages" have left the track my brain can't help starting to think of passengers potentially being injured, until it realises that it's actually a case of an unfortunate choice of word. Thankfully in this instance no-one seems to have been injured.

I am more than a little surprised that NR used the term "carriages", although I note that the media report linked above by ac6000cw has now been amended to read: "Network Rail is working with multiple agencies to find out how wagons carrying cement came off the track over the River Petteril shortly after 8pm last night (Wednesday 19 October)." The wording of the BBC article has also been amended since I pasted it in to this thread, with references to "carriages" changed to "wagons".

So I don't think I'm alone in finding the error unsettling.

(I also note that, although examples have been provided of different terms being used for passenger-carrying vehicles, no-one has admitted to calling wagons "carriages" as a matter of course.)

You're definitely not alone - I emailed the BBC to complain about it for exactly the same reasons you outlined in the first paragraph. It's a misuse of basic terminology that can give a misleading impression, which is why I view it as important that it is used correctly.
Pedantic it may be, but "snooty" is going a bit far.

Anyway, back on topic, is there any rough estimate as to when the line will reopen?

 

[yorksrob]

I remember back in the days of 142s that every so often a Merseyrail interior Pacer would end up doing circuits around the North East for a week or so. Always a grim time.

Grim times indeed !

 

[800001]

You're definitely not alone - I emailed the BBC to complain about it for exactly the same reasons you outlined in the first paragraph. It's a misuse of basic terminology that can give a misleading impression, which is why I view it as important that it is used correctly.
Pedantic it may be, but "snooty" is going a bit far.

Anyway, back on topic, is there any rough estimate as to when the line will reopen?

Until everything is removed and they can assess the damage I don’t think there will be a timescale.

Reports that the bridge is severely damaged

 

[Ediswan]

Reports that the bridge is severely damaged

There is a 'before' picture here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/12a_kingmoor_klickr/7552453762
A fair amount of material above the arches does now seem to missing.

 

[zwk500]

Pedantic it may be, but "snooty" is going a bit far.

The bit I was specifically referring to as snooty was this:

Does anyone who isn't an utter ignoramus call freight wagons "carriages"?

For which the poster has apologised.

Basic the terminology may be, but, 'utter ignoramus' is harsh. Do you make the specific distinction between train (a set of connected vehicles), and service (the specific schedule to which a train is aiming to operate)?

 

[Crossover]

It’s been mentioned up thread that there were 2 x 158’s stranded. They’ll have been the pair to form 2H81.

2H99 surely?

My bet would be on 158793 and 158904 being stuck in Carlisle.

They arrived on 2H94 1648 Leeds to Carlisle - https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G90232/2022-10-19/detailed#allox_id=0 - this passed Petteril Bridge Junction at 19:28

2H99 was due to depart Carlisle at 20:13 (which was cancelled from Carlisle and restarted at Appleby around 80L).

The freight derailment happened between the arrival of 2H94 and departure of 2H99