Derailment near Carlisle - 19/10/2022 - 1715 Clitheroe Castle Cement Gb to Carlisle N.Y. (6C00)

[Ediswan]

Maybe some limited use of one track can quickly be restored aa it seems to have suffered little damage but the other two look much more difficult.

The most northerly of the three tracks (furthest from the incident) is a dead end, part of some sidings.

 

[70014IronDuke]

It was a bit tongue-in-cheek as the site is very constrained so any ground-base crane is probably going to need to stand on the rail formation. A Chinook can carry up to about 12 tonnes, which means it could probably just about get an empty wagon to London Road but wouldn't be lifting a full one at all.
The most likely option is that the damaged track will be removed, then the crane will stand on the ballast with spreader boards, and once the wagons are recovered the track will be replaced.

Since the badly damaged wagons will probably have to be scrapped, could they be cut up and lifted bit by bit, if they could collect the cement to avoid massive ecological damage?

 

[zwk500]

Since the badly damaged wagons will probably have to be scrapped, could they be cut up and lifted bit by bit, if they could collect the cement to avoid massive ecological damage?

In theory, yes. However in addition to the ecological risk of cement, you've also got to have a plan for the environmental risk of cutting up (sparks mainly, but also oils, lubricants etc) and have a plan to cut it up in such a way that it won't cause any further damage or hurt any staff. It'll depend on speed vs cost vs practicality.

 

[matacaster]

Are you honestly suggesting the railway just dumps 3/4 wagons full of cement in a river? Come on, do you think there are no environmental regulations around that?

Also, now is the cheapest time to recover them, and the least disruptive for passengers. London Road yard is literally on the opposite side of the line, with road access. Before you put new track down, use the ballast as hardstanding for the crane and move all the damaged wagons into the yard. Then you can hand the line back as normal, rather than having to come back later and rip things up again (or hire a Chinook). Passengers don't have their line disrupted multiple times, and the railway doesn't have to take expensive environmental control measures to stop cement polluting the Petteril and Eden.
Assessment of the wagons can take place in it's own time, and then they can be moved by either rail or road, or even cut up on site if needed.

I am not suggesting they be left ad- infinitum, just that it will likely be many days before they can be removed at best, so reinstating railway quickly would be beneficial.

As regards removing the wagons, various thoughts
-suck the cement powder out with a long flexible pipe via a road vehicle? Or
-Cut section out of wagon and literally shovel it out

Then cut wagons up on site.

In theory, yes. However in addition to the ecological risk of cement, you've also got to have a plan for the environmental risk of cutting up (sparks mainly, but also oils, lubricants etc) and have a plan to cut it up in such a way that it won't cause any further damage or hurt any staff. It'll depend on speed vs cost vs practicality.

What about cutting wagon up with hydraulic shears as per road accidents?

 

[66701GBRF]

I am not suggesting they be left ad- infinitum, just that it will likely be many days before they can be removed at best, so reinstating railway quickly would be beneficial.

As regards removing the wagons, various thoughts
-suck the cement powder out with a long flexible pipe via a road vehicle? Or
-Cut section out of wagon and literally shovel it out

Then cut wagons up on site.


What about cutting wagon up with hydraulic shears as per road accidents?

It will take days to remove them whether you do it now as part of the recovery process or at a later date. There is no benefit in a second round of disruption. The time you would be using to move the wagons clear of the line and making sure they are secured you might as well just remove them completely.

 

[Ediswan]

In theory, yes. However in addition to the ecological risk of cement, you've also got to have a plan for the environmental risk of cutting up (sparks mainly, but also oils, lubricants etc) and have a plan to cut it up in such a way that it won't cause any further damage or hurt any staff. It'll depend on speed vs cost vs practicality.

You also need to allow for the fact that (part of) the site is in moving water, immediately upstream of a 40m tunnel, which introduces a whole additional set of hazards. Heavy rain along the M6/WCML between Penrith and Carlisle would be a particular problem.

 

[zwk500]

I am not suggesting they be left ad- infinitum, just that it will likely be many days before they can be removed at best, so reinstating railway quickly would be beneficial.

Even leaving temporarily won't be an option, there's a huge risk to the bridge. A sudden downpour and that wagon becomes a dam and the water will push it downstream.

As regards removing the wagons, various thoughts
-suck the cement powder out with a long flexible pipe via a road vehicle? Or
-Cut section out of wagon and literally shovel it out

Shovelling out is unlikely to be feasible for time or environmental reasons. Getting a tanker to the road vehicle is more likely - there's an access point on the north side of the line about as close as you could want.

Then cut wagons up on site.

What about cutting wagon up with hydraulic shears as per road accidents?

I'm sure all options will be considered. It's entirely possible that a mix of shears, circular saws, torches, and even hand hacksaws might be required - the position of the wagon upside-down means cutting up will need to be done carefully to avoid the wagon falling into the bridge or onto staff.

 

[matacaster]

Even leaving temporarily won't be an option, there's a huge risk to the bridge. A sudden downpour and that wagon becomes a dam and the water will push it downstream.

Shovelling out is unlikely to be feasible for time or environmental reasons. Getting a tanker to the road vehicle is more likely - there's an access point on the north side of the line about as close as you could want.

I'm sure all options will be considered. It's entirely possible that a mix of shears, circular saws, torches, and even hand hacksaws might be required - the position of the wagon upside-down means cutting up will need to be done carefully to avoid the wagon falling into the bridge or onto staff.

Thanks!

 

[zwk500]

Thanks!

I should point out this is all speculation/conjecture, I'm not involved in the recovery operation in any way.

 

[doningtonphil]

Which of the wagons did the wheelset that has the major flats (as seen in a previous location) belong to?

 

[Signal Head]

Which of the wagons did the wheelset that has the major flats (as seen in a previous location) belong to?

Appears to be the leading axle on the overturned wagon in the river. That would fit with it being the culprit, having spread the road at trailing points from a siding just before the junction points (too much track damage for it to have started at the junction points themselves, plus derailed wagon(s) on the S&C side of them).

The one in front then dragged into derailment as that one overturned, those in rear running into the hole in the track.

It looks like the one in the river might be the only serious casualty, the one behind it has gone down the bank but looks upright, all the rest behind that are presumably just sitting on sleepers.

 

[DaveHarries]

Knowing B&Q if you go in tomorrow and try to buy it they'll say they're out of stock

 

[DanNCL]

Looks like a unit left barrow early doors this morning via the copy pit line ecs to Heaton

3rd party driver(s) as no Northern crews sign both the route and the traction.

Is this due to be some of the trapped units going back to Neville Hill please?

Realtime Trains | 5E17 1115 Carlisle to Neville Hill T&R.S.M.D | 22/10/2022

Real-time train running information for 5E17 1115 departure from Carlisle to Neville Hill T&R.S.M.D on 22/10/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Not sure but whatever it was it was cancelled.

 

[Adam0984]

3rd party driver(s) as no Northern crews sign both the route and the traction.


Not sure but whatever it was it was cancelled.

Possibly not enough fuel for such a long trip as them units would normally end their day at Neville Hill after doing 2H99. To be fair they only need to get them to Carnforth/Lancaster or Preston and northern can bring them back in house

 

[Whistler40145]

Any idea how long it will take to repair the track around Petteril Bridge Junction?

 

[zwk500]

Any idea how long it will take to repair the track around Petteril Bridge Junction?

The track itself not too long, as long as there's spares for the points in stock. The big question is over the state of the bridge. Earlier posts have hinted it isn't good.

 

[Whistler40145]

The bridge looked like the ground surrounding it wasn’t very stable

 

[Annetts key]

Without wanting to derail the thread too much, can someone explain why freight train derailments appear to be more common than passenger services?

Freight train wagons of the type used for this train or similar are significantly heavier than passenger coaches/cars/carriages. Even with reinforced concrete sleepers, if there is even a tiny bit of wear in the rail and the fixings, the rails move (are pushed) outwards slightly during the normal passage of these trains.

So, if the track is not to a sufficiently good standard, and the rails move too much (spread), a wheel could drop off the inside edge of the rail. Or the rail may be able to twist (rotate) also causing a wheel to drop into the four foot.

To help prevent this, the running surface of wheels on some types of heavy wagons are wider.

In my area, it’s the china clay train that used to cause us problems.

Of course there are other issues. The only human on board is normally the driver. So no one else to hear any unusual sounds, and take action.

And if a problem develops with a brake, wheel or coupling, again, unless a signaller, station staff or other staff working lineside notice something amiss, again it may develop until failure occurs.

There are hot axle box detectors, but these are not able to detect other defects.

 

[GC class B1]

Freight train wagons of the type used for this train or similar are significantly heavier than passenger coaches/cars/carriages. Even with reinforced concrete sleepers, if there is even a tiny bit of wear in the rail and the fixings, the rails move (are pushed) outwards slightly during the normal passage of these trains.

So, if the track is not to a sufficiently good standard, and the rails move too much (spread), a wheel could drop off the inside edge of the rail. Or the rail may be able to twist (rotate) also causing a wheel to drop into the four foot.

To help prevent this, the running surface of wheels on some types of heavy wagons are wider.

In my area, it’s the china clay train that used to cause us problems.

Of course there are other issues. The only human on board is normally the driver. So no one else to hear any unusual sounds, and take action.

And if a problem develops with a brake, wheel or coupling, again, unless a signaller, station staff or other staff working lineside notice something amiss, again it may develop until failure occurs.

There are hot axle box detectors, but these are not able to detect other defects.

I believe some hot axle box detectors will also measure wheel temperatures and identify dragging brakes.

 

[Ediswan]

There are hot axle box detectors, but these are not able to detect other defects.

I was wondering about that. From the oxidation colours on the wheel in the RAIB photo, part of it was pushing 300 °C.

 

[JD2168]

Unloading the damaged wagons is going to be very difficult in the area. At Sheffield when the derailment happened they recovery teams had the advantage of Sheaf Street outside the station so lorries & cranes could empty the damaged wagons. When an inspection of the wagons was last done I would have thought the damage to the wheels was noticed unless it was quite recent.

I think it may take a bit longer before trains are running than currently thought, weather through the coming days looks poor which could prevent recovery, the track looks quite damaged & the wall needs repair along with the bridge checked out structurally in case of damage.

 

[TheBigD]

I believe some hot axle box detectors will also measure wheel temperatures and identify dragging brakes.

There are lineside devices for identifying wheel flats. Wheelchex/WILD (wheel impact load detector).

 

[Tractor37]

Any idea how long it will take to repair the track around Petteril Bridge Junction?

I was talking to my supervisor tonight about it as my diagram tomorrow takes me along the S&C terminating at Appleby. Initial thinking by Network Rail is that it will be about 5 weeks before reopening.

 

[Crossover]

I'm sure all options will be considered. It's entirely possible that a mix of shears, circular saws, torches, and even hand hacksaws might be required - the position of the wagon upside-down means cutting up will need to be done carefully to avoid the wagon falling into the bridge or onto staff.

There is also the potential explosion risk if the contents are in powder form. Whilst the dangers are evident with things like fuel (and the vapours), powders can be just as bad (there have been major incidents at the likes of saw mills and flour mills)

 

[GC class B1]

There are lineside devices for identifying wheel flats. Wheelchex/WILD (wheel impact load detector).

The impact load detector wouldn’t detect a locked axle as was the case for this wheelset.

 

[zwk500]

There is also the potential explosion risk if the contents are in powder form. Whilst the dangers are evident with things like fuel (and the vapours), powders can be just as bad (there have been major incidents at the likes of saw mills and flour mills)

This is true, although don't powder explosions usually happen when the powder is aerosolised? That's unlikely to happen when the wagon is facing down, into a river.

 

[trebor79]

There is also the potential explosion risk if the contents are in powder form. Whilst the dangers are evident with things like fuel (and the vapours), powders can be just as bad (there have been major incidents at the likes of saw mills and flour mills)

This is true, although don't powder explosions usually happen when the powder is aerosolised? That's unlikely to happen when the wagon is facing down, into a river.

Cement can't burn, so powder explosion is not a concern. Horrible stuff to work with though.

 

[66701GBRF]

Couple of timescale I have heard...

Removal of 400t of concrete from 5 wagons likely to take a week.
Recovery of wagons down the bank and in the river not expected to commence until *29th October.
*subject to change depending on concrete removal and crane arrival.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

I was talking to my supervisor tonight about it as my diagram tomorrow takes me along the S&C terminating at Appleby. Initial thinking by Network Rail is that it will be about 5 weeks before reopening.

Wow, as well as this affecting the S&C, does it also affect the Newcastle upon Tyne to Carlise services too? I shall have to have a look at my rather out of date rail atlas later.

 

[ItsGrimUpNorth]

From Northern Website for travel today:

Disruption to services between Carlisle and Appleby, and between Carlisle and Haltwhistle​

Due to this week's incident involving a derailed train near Carlisle, we are advising customers not to travel between Carlisle and Appleby, and between Carlisle and Haltwhistle stations on Sunday 23 Octoberas we have been unable to source replacement road transport at short notice for customers on this date.

We apologise to our customers for the disruption caused. For further details on how to request a refund for any unused tickets, please see the full details available here.

DO NOT TRAVEL: Disruption between Carlisle-Appleby and Carlisle-Haltwhistle

Northern | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

www.northernrailway.co.uk

That is genuinely incredible? Luckily the 685 will run from Haltwhistle, and people can get picked up etc, but that is very poor.

At least they’ve moved from terminating at Wetheral which is possibly the least bus-friendly destination possible mind!