Derailment near Carlisle - 19/10/2022 - 1715 Clitheroe Castle Cement Gb to Carlisle N.Y. (6C00)

[Bevan Price]

According to RTT, 60087 went light engine to Petteril Bridge Junction on 27 October, but a southbound path (6Z60) to Clitheroe was cancelled. Presumably that had been intended to recover unaffected tank wagons at the rear of the train.

Meanwhile, all three units temporarily stuck at Carlisle seem to be back in service. 156.475 was still on Cumbrian Coast services, whilst both 158s are working in Leeds or Sheffield area sevices.

 

[AndrewE]

Trying to empty wagons containing what is essentially burnt lime which are sitting in or above a river is a rather dangerous idea.
If the lime gets wet you're risking one heck of an exothermic reaction

It's not quicklime - although hydrating it is exothermic to some extent.

It would be quite easy to devise a safe way of removing the dry cement powder, and the fact that it was mentioned a few dozen posts back shows it is do-able.
I would "just" flame-cut a couple of holes in the tanks, weld on standard connectors, put compressed air on one and blow the powder through pipes into a receiving tank placed somewhere sensible - like on a road. Not difficult. (and I was involved in getting the unburnt fuel out of the tank wagons after the Summit Tunnel fire - and for a long time after that because of the fuel in the drainage too...)

 

[MisterSheeps]

put compressed air on one and blow the powder

I know that bulk powder transfer occurs like that, but how do you avoid explosions from the dust laden static charged air?

 

[InOban]

As has been pointed out before, cement powder, unlike, say, flour, is not explosive.
The NR update shows the powder being blown from the tanks through quite long hoses to a suitable container. The update also states that the operation is being supervised by the Environment Agency and there has been no pollution. (Some of us wish they were as active in monitoring organic pollution from sewage works and farms)

 

[MisterSheeps]

As has been pointed out before

yes, off tangent, but i was wondering, in the case of flour, sawdust etc, how you can extract dust without it exploding ... i guess rock dust, cement, etc is too heavy to form an air suspension, though breathing cement dust when you open a bag doesn't do much for your lungs!

 

[Annetts key]

yes, off tangent, but i was wondering, in the case of flour, sawdust etc, how you can extract dust without it exploding ... i guess rock dust, cement, etc is too heavy to form an air suspension, though breathing cement dust when you open a bag doesn't do much for your lungs!

You need four things for combustion: oxygen, fuel, the mixture being at a high enough temperature for combustion and a source of ignition. With some types of fuel, the air/fuel mixture must also be in the correct proportions. If you prevent some of these then there can be no fire or explosion.

 

[randyrippley]

yes, off tangent, but i was wondering, in the case of flour, sawdust etc, how you can extract dust without it exploding ... i guess rock dust, cement, etc is too heavy to form an air suspension, though breathing cement dust when you open a bag doesn't do much for your lungs!

cement dust isn't flammable, it can't burn so can't explode.

 

[greyman42]

There was a 156 stabled in York this morning, between Plat 2 and the car park.

I refer to that line as "exam". Is that its proper name?

 

[zwk500]

I refer to that line as "exam". Is that its proper name?

It is indeed officially the examination siding, IIRC.

 

[doningtonphil]

What is the latest on the recovery?

 

[madannie77]

I drove past (on London Road) this afternoon, and there is now a crane on site. Didn't have time to stop and investigate further, unfirtunately

 

[M60lad]

Apparently the latest according to National Rail is that the current disruption is due last now until 06:00 Thursday 1 December

 

[Paul_10]

Interesting too see 156447, 475 and 484 went through the closed section of track earlier this evening in a non passenger working to Heaton depot, I'm guessing it's safe to do the ECS movments but not passenger ones?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Anyway, back on topic, is there any rough estimate as to when the line will reopen?

The words I heard were "not before next weekend" but looking at the damage that may be an optimistic estimate.

Apparently the latest according to National Rail is that the current disruption is due last now until 06:00 Thursday 1 December

Always did seem unlikely that this would be a quick one to sort out.

 

[madannie77]

Two cranes on site now, one rather larger than the other.

From some distance away:




Images show the scene at Petteril Bridge Junction in Carlisle on Wednesday 9th November, with the remaining derailed cement tankers and two cranes.

 

[Crossover]

Interesting too see 156447, 475 and 484 went through the closed section of track earlier this evening in a non passenger working to Heaton depot, I'm guessing it's safe to do the ECS movments but not passenger ones?

One way passenger traffic is a bit useless. Also volume of moves as well - it may well be that the job had to be stopped to allow the passage of the ECS and other arrangements put in place for it. Fine for a one off move, but not anything regular

 

[Ediswan]

Two cranes on site now, one rather larger than the other.

It looks like the larger will get larger still. There are more sections still on the ground.

 

[swt_passenger]

Two cranes on site now, one rather larger than the other.

Images show the scene at Petteril Bridge Junction in Carlisle on Wednesday 9th November, with the remaining derailed cement tankers and two cranes.

I think the smaller telescopic crane will be needed to assemble the separate sections of the much large crawler crane.

 

[plugwash]

Two cranes on site now, one rather larger than the other.

I don't find this at all surprising.

There is a limit to the size/weight of an item that can be sent by road in one piece, even with oversize/overweight permits. So cranes beyond a certain size come with "some assembly required" and said assembly often requires a (smaller) crane.

 

[DelW]

There's evidently a considerable amount of assembly needed with this crane. I suspect that the lattice jib that's currently in the air will end up being the back mast when it's fully rigged, and that the lattice sections still on or by the trucks will eventually be the main jib. The telescopic will just be the service crane for assembly.

 

[swt_passenger]

There's evidently a considerable amount of assembly needed with this crane. I suspect that the lattice jib that's currently in the air will end up being the back mast when it's fully rigged, and that the lattice sections still on or by the trucks will eventually be the main jib. The telescopic will just be the service crane for assembly.

If this link to Ainscough’s website works and you scroll down a bit, it should have a photo explaining exactly what you just said, ie only the back mast is visible so far. It’s actually lifting a “small” 10 wheeler onto a roof…

Crane Hire & Equipment Rental For Infrastructure | Ainscough Crane Hire

Infrastructure projects lie at the core of Ainscough’s capabilities, with decades of expertise enabling us to plan and execute all aspects of the job.

www.ainscough.co.uk

 

[trebor79]

Looks similar to the 1,000 tonne capacity crane we had at work years ago. It was only lifting about 5 tonnes but at a very long reach.
I guess similar situation here, relatively light loads but quite far from where you can site the crane, so has to be a big crane.

 

[AVK17]

If this link to Ainscough’s website works and you scroll down a bit, it should have a photo explaining exactly what you just said, ie only the back mast is visible so far. It’s actually lifting a “small” 10 wheeler onto a roof…

Crane Hire & Equipment Rental For Infrastructure | Ainscough Crane Hire

Infrastructure projects lie at the core of Ainscough’s capabilities, with decades of expertise enabling us to plan and execute all aspects of the job.

www.ainscough.co.uk

It’s the same Terex CC2800-1 model (I guess probably the same one) as was used to recover the vehicles involved in the Stonehaven crash in 2020. It has 600t capacity.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Apparently the latest according to National Rail is that the current disruption is due last now until 06:00 Thursday 1 December

Given how long it takes to deal with recovery these days the industry needs to take much more action in preventing the occurrence of such events.

 

[AndrewE]

Two cranes on site now, one rather larger than the other.

From some distance away:
View attachment 123551

View attachment 123552

Images show the scene at Petteril Bridge Junction in Carlisle on Wednesday 9th November, with the remaining derailed cement tankers and two cranes.

Maybe the small one is being used to assemble the big one... and maybe a second big one yet to arrive?

 

[66701GBRF]

Given how long it takes to deal with recovery these days the industry needs to take much more action in preventing the occurrence of such events.

I'd say the risk to the network and overall costs are more important than how long it takes to recover. However other than increasing the amount of check devices on the network I am not sure what else can be done, especially for faults that occur enroute.

 

[DarloRich]

Given how long it takes to deal with recovery these days the industry needs to take much more action in preventing the occurrence of such events.

This is not something I have knowledge of. Could you suggest some options?

 

[AndrewE]

This is not something I have knowledge of. Could you suggest some options?

This is where the "5 Why's" technique comes in. To get near to the root cause you need to ask "Why?" 5 times. It's no good just issuing a knee-jerk response instruction saying "So-and-so MUST be done every time without fail."

If it was (e.g. a handbrake left on, or brake gear not properly fixed and coming detached or jamming)

"Why was the error made?" Because someone who should have done it was late arriving for his shift and rushed the job
"Why was that?" because (e.g.) he had to take a child to hospital as they couldn't wait for an ambulance and wife couldn't drive
"Why couldn't anyone else cover his work?" Because the people on site were too few and everyone else was 100% occupied/because people weren't multi-skilled/because labour relations had broken down and...
"Why?" because the company was needing to be more profitable to achieve shareholder returns
"Why?" because the directors remuneration depends on it

Maybe the above is written in haste and not very well thought through (and reflects my take on things) and could / should also go in different directions from the second question, but human error won't be eliminated by more instructions. Resourcing and staff morale are often contributory factors, which both impact on the thoroughness applied to the work.

So I would looks for transport infrastructure to be adequately staffed, by secure employees with a professional approach to their work. No gig economy, people doing second jobs to get by or trying to use a foodbank without being recognised.

(and no worrying about share price ahead of what the organisation is really there to do.) The Grayrigg derailment was a good example of this.

 

[InkyScrolls]

This is where the "5 Why's" technique comes in. To get near to the root cause you need to ask "Why?" 5 times. It's no good just issuing a knee-jerk response instruction saying "So-and-so MUST be done every time without fail."

If it was (e.g. a handbrake left on, or brake gear not properly fixed and coming detached or jamming)

"Why was the error made?" Because someone who should have done it was late arriving for his shift and rushed the job
"Why was that?" because (e.g.) he had to take a child to hospital as they couldn't wait for an ambulance and wife couldn't drive
"Why couldn't anyone else cover his work?" Because the people on site were too few and everyone else was 100% occupied/because people weren't multi-skilled/because labour relations had broken down and...
"Why?" because the company was needing to be more profitable to achieve shareholder returns
"Why?" because the directors remuneration depends on it

Maybe the above is written in haste and not very well thought through (and reflects my take on things) and could / should also go in different directions from the second question, but human error won't be eliminated by more instructions. Resourcing and staff morale are often contributory factors, which both impact on the thoroughness applied to the work.

So I would looks for transport infrastructure to be adequately staffed, by secure employees with a professional approach to their work. No gig economy, people doing second jobs to get by or trying to use a foodbank without being recognised.

(and no worrying about share price ahead of what the organisation is really there to do.) The Grayrigg derailment was a good example of this.

Excellently put.

 

[Annetts key]

Given how long it takes to deal with recovery these days the industry needs to take much more action in preventing the occurrence of such events.

As the number of staff working lineside continues to fall, there are even less ears and eyes around to hear or see any problems. So the most obvious way forward is for either more lineside automated detection systems, or for trains to have automated detection systems fitted on board.

Unless anyone can think of any other method?

The next question is of course, given the limited amount of money available, will the railways manage to install any equipment before something similar happens again?